Story<BR><BR>Sony America has declined to release the Japanese title Rule of Rose in the US, judging its content too offensive for US gamers and politicians. Is it a sign of American prudery, sound moral decision, or good business?
Citing its underage eroticism, Sony America pulls plug on Japanese video game
- Thread starter Nate Anderson
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Dear god, i hope whoever it was that made this decision doesn't take a stroll through the anime aisle at their local best buy. They will be crushed under the mountain of pedo.
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Sorry, but the whole article comes off as a thinly-veiled whine session about "why are we so uptight about sex and cool with violence?" That goes doubly because it _is_ being released in the US, just not by Sony. Obviously, "censorship" or whatever has not triumphed in this situation. The risk of serious backlash was just more than Sony wanted to take - and a large company trying to avoid a potential hot potato is a time-honored tradition, not some recent invention of Jack Thompson, Hilary Clinton's save the children crew, and/or right-wing Evangelicals.<BR><BR>Some Japanese games don't get released in the US for any number of reasons, and, surprise surprise, different cultural values and tastes are a couple of the big ones. Not everything is some sort of political conspiracy.<BR><BR>-Erwos
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Looks like I'll end up buying it. Horror games aren't my thing, but I buy everything that Atlus publishes on principle.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">it's interesting to note that violence in video games has actually come under far more scrutiny than sexuality. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Scrutiny? Yes. There have been countless studies (some better than others) done trying to determine if video game violence triggers physical violence in gamers. However, the uproar over the Hot Coffee mod was a million times greater than that of the "uproar" (if you can call it that) over video game violence. There are countless other examples other than the Hot Coffee mod (Janet Jackson comes to mind - it was a SINGLE BREAST for crying out loud - half the population has two of them!)<BR><BR>Despite the increased scrutiny of video game violence, any nudity or sex is instantly taboo and unleashes a PR nightmare on the publisher.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">While pundits have long lamented America's "puritanical" attitudes toward sex and its comfort with ultraviolence, it's interesting to note that violence in video games has actually come under far more scrutiny than sexuality. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>You feel that violence has had more scrutiny than sexuality? Then why was a low-res badly-rendered humping scene the reason for bumping the rating of a carjacking-cop-killing-pedestrian-mowing-killing-spree game to Adults Only? Don't get me wrong, I love GTA, but Hot Coffee was such a non-event it's just silly...
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Japan's pop culture, from what I have learned of it, is similar to but very different from ours. Friends of mine who work there have said that pornographic magazines can be found in dentist's offices and public transportation. And I suppose most people know about the "love hotels" in the big cities there. There is also a pervasive, inexplicable fetish for the very young.<BR><BR>Japanese who are savvy about American pop culture know the differences. The great manga auteur Masamune Shirow has altered parts of his books, entirely of his own accord, before they were published in the U.S. Because of the different cultural paradigms, the pages he changed would have had a different weight and meaning here than there and detracted from his work overall.<BR><BR>As for who is right and who is wrong, well -- we Americans are a silly people and usually unreasonable in our ideas, one way or other. But that does not mean our underlying concepts are always incorrect.<BR><BR>Women should be safe as men, in a culture, practically and psychologically. Children should be much much safer. This is simply justice and true empathy: Put yourself, O male geek, into the person of a woman, if you can, and see if you would not want most to feel comfortable and safe and productive. Remind yourself, if you can, of what made for your happiest, most contented days in childhood.<BR><BR>Am I, in my thoughts, desires, or actions, taking or giving? is an excellent general moral rule.
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<blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div>
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Porter Doran:<br>Japan's pop culture, from what I have learned of it, is similar to but very different from ours. </div>
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<br><br>Way to cover your bases there! -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif --
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div>
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Porter Doran:<br>Japan's pop culture, from what I have learned of it, is similar to but very different from ours. </div>
</blockquote>
<br><br>Way to cover your bases there! -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif --
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Japane pop culture is similar in the many, many ways that it is extracted from our own, but (being of course its own culture) it has been taken in very different directions, over time.<BR><BR>I do not think that I have made a self-contradictory statement with that.
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Every culture assigns a level of taboo to violence and sexuality. In the United States, sexuality is more taboo than violence.<BR><BR>You may disagree with how taboo something is, but saying that the American culture is <I>wrong </I> is just plain asinine. Culture isn't right or wrong, it just is.<BR><BR>50 years ago it was prohibited to show a married couple sharing the same bed on television. Considering what is allowed in media today, I'd say our sexual taboos have changed radically since then.
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Topic needs more info/discussion around what the game under discussion (Rule of Rose) is about. Is this an H game with mainstream elements, or a mainstream adventure game with H game elements?
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I'm wondering if the sales numbers were rising or falling when the decision was made because once it hits the news, everyone and grandma will be buying a copy just to see what it was they were missing.
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A friend of mine is teaching in Japan and he finds the doublestandard on Sex there mind boggling. They sell porn in vending machines with used panties but to buy a porn where the naughty bits arent blurred can get you arrested for indecency. Weird stuff. Course you Yanks arent much better.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by schizomilkman:<BR>Culture isn't right or wrong, it just is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>That's a factual enough statement. But what <em>I</em> do can be right or wrong.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But what I do can be right or wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Quite. However a culture <B>can</B> be wrong. In the Aztec culture the custom of throwing virgins down the steps of a pyramid was hardly right just becuase it was culturally based, chopping off the hands of thieves is tolerated as law in some places as is murdering murderers. These laws have their basis in culture but are hardly right. That's why we have an international convention on <B>human</B> rights.
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ARTICLE OMITS IMPORTANT POINT<BR><BR>Atlus -- a Japanese company -- is going to be publishing <I>Rule of the Rose</I> in the US. So the story is not that <I>Rose</I> is too risque for American tastes (otherwise Atlus wouldn't have bought the publishing rights) -- the story is simply that Sony is trying to cut down on the negative PR that it has been getting recently. And in the wake of the PS3 price announcement, it may very well have a point...
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mikileen:<BR>Quite. However a culture <B>can</B> be wrong. In the Aztec culture the custom of throwing virgins down the steps of a pyramid was hardly right just becuase it was culturally based, chopping off the hands of thieves is tolerated as law in some places as is murdering murderers. These laws have their basis in culture but are hardly right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>How <B>DARE</B> you presume to judge these cultures, you horrible ethnocentric bigot! Who are <I>WE</I> to cast aspersions on how other cultures behave? Our culture isn't any better than anyone else's has ever been or will ever be, they're all unique like diamond snowflakes and should all be respected equally. Didn't you go to <I>COLLEGE</I>?
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Oh and btw, speaking of naughty 8-bit games....<BR><BR>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custer%27s_Revenge<BR><BR>Wonder if there'll be an MMORPG update of <I>that</I> one...
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">How DARE you presume to judge these cultures, you horrible ethnocentric bigot! Who are WE to cast aspersions on how other cultures behave? Our culture isn't any better than anyone else's has ever been or will ever be, they're all unique like diamond snowflakes and should all be respected equally. Didn't you go to COLLEGE? </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Wow, I thought you were being sarcastic or something until I got to then end and there was no punch line! Okay let me split your rant up.<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">How DARE you presume to judge these cultures, you horrible ethnocentric bigot! Who are WE to cast aspersions on how other cultures behave? </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We? Well I know who I am but haven't the slightest idea who you are. Possibly the "we" you mean is those cultures with respect for human rights? Obviously excluding you.<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Our culture isn't any better than anyone else's has ever been or will ever be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nor have I said as much, I haven't implied any culture being 'better' than another, all I said was that certain actions with their basis in culture can be wrong. Take, anti-semitism in Germany in the 30's/40's, apartheid in South Africa... hey I could go on. If I'm not mistaken both of these examples resulted outcry involving most of the rest of the world with opposing cultural views, though they never claimed to be 'better'.<BR><BR>Whether or not I went to university is relevant how? So if I didn't go to university I wouldn't be eligible to an opinion?<BR>Hey and leave out the ad hominem please, if you have an argument, type it up, otherwise shut up.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Enron:<BR>Dear god, i hope whoever it was that made this decision doesn't take a stroll through the anime aisle at their local best buy. They will be crushed under the mountain of pedo. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Is that the anime itself or the fat otaku stuffing the aisle that you are referring to?
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Oh, those horrible June coughs.<BR>Since when does Sony decide not to release a product for anything other than financial reasons? This is the company that added a rootkit to disguise their DRM without a second thought.
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Wow, that's a REALLY good trailer linked in the joystick article. I think that might honestly be one of my favourite trailers ever - it managed "art" without appearing to try too hard.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mikileen:<BR>Nor have I said as much, I haven't implied any culture being 'better' than another, all I said was that certain actions with their basis in culture can be wrong. Take, anti-semitism in Germany in the 30's/40's, apartheid in South Africa... hey I could go on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Again, who are we to judge the behavior of these cultures? Anti-semitism has been part of the fabric of European culture for centuries if not millennia, so who are we to start judging <I>now</I>? Morality and personal accountability are such obsolete Dead White Male Imperialistic constructs, my Womyn's Studies professor told me so!<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><BR>Whether or not I went to university is relevant how? So if I didn't go to university I wouldn't be eligible to an opinion? </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Of course it isn't! If you didn't study for an undergraduate degree in a liberal arts discipline, you are not qualified to talk about anything related to culture or politics. Why else spend all that money otherwise?
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the fat otaku stuffing the aisle that you are referring to? </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ok, Repeat after me...<BR>WE ARE NOT IN JAPAN AND USING JAPANESE WORDS DOES NOT MAKE ME LOOK SMARTER.
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Am I missing something? What exactly is so erotic about the trailer? There was the sucking on the finger, some rolling around, and some grabbing of the tied up girl. This is supposed to be erotic?<BR><BR>These interactions seem quite natural to me. Has anybody ever seen children playing? There is a fair amount of physical contact. Hell, the scene with the hands coming out of the darkness reminded me of a horror-version of what happens at a children's birthday party to the person with the cake.<BR><BR>I just think some people have dirty minds, seeing things where there aren't any. I watched the Omen last night, and in one scene the father goes "I know every inch of his body" (referring to how he had never encountered a birthmark on his little boy). There was nervous laughter in the audience, likely from people who have never tried to bathe a kid.
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Obviously publishing some material in overly religious countries such as USA or Saudi Arabia is problematic.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Otis Wildflower:<BR>Excellent satire of post-modern relativistic thought. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mikileen:<BR>Failure to understand depth of satirical commentary. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Wow, I thought you were being sarcastic or something until I got to then end and there was no punch line! </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Erm... ooooo kayyyy.<BR><BR>(I had a longer post written up about how the punch line was as obvious as a turd in a silver punch bowl, but decided there wasn't any point)
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><I>Nate said...</I><BR><B>Sony America has declined to release the Japanese title Rule of Rose in the US, judging its content too offensive for US gamers and politicians. Is it a sign of American prudery, sound moral decision, or good business?</B> </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>You should probably change "Sony America" to "Sony Computer Entertainment of America" (or just SCEA) since they dictate what's published for the US (plus it looks more professional)...
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> <I>Originally from TFA</I> <BR>While pundits have long lamented America's "puritanical" attitudes toward sex and its comfort with ultraviolence, it's interesting to note that violence in video games has actually come under far more scrutiny than sexuality. Progress, or even more puritanism? </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>If this (short-term) trend of more heavily scrutinizing violence were coupled with a (likewise short-term) trend of relaxing our scrutiny of sex, I might say "progress". But guess what?<BR><BR>Edit: Formatting<BR>Edit 2: Clarity
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<blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div>
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
<br>Again, who are we to judge the behavior of these cultures? Anti-semitism has been part of the fabric of European culture for centuries if not millennia, so who are we to start judging <i>now</i>? </div>
</blockquote>
<br>So because something went on for a long time we should never judge it? Right.<br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div>
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
<br>Morality and personal accountability are such obsolete Dead White Male Imperialistic constructs, my Womyn's Studies professor told me so!<br> </div>
</blockquote>
<br>Oh! Sorry! You're right. I apologise. Your womyn's studies professor said that morality and accountability are dead white men's constructs so we should just forget all about them. Good point, well made.<br><br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div>
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
<br>Originally posted by mikileen:<br>Whether or not I went to university is relevant how? So if I didn't go to university I wouldn't be eligible to an opinion? </div>
</blockquote>
<br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div>
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
<br>Of course it isn't! If you didn't study for an undergraduate degree in a liberal arts discipline, you are not qualified to talk about anything related to culture or politics. Why else spend all that money otherwise? </div>
</blockquote>
<br><br>It isn't or it is? Make up your mind. Are you seriously telling us all that if we didn't study liberal arts we're not qualified to post opinions on culture or politics here? You're joking, surely! All the same it must be nice to be qualified to call all the users of a site devoted to culture "a bunch of fags" as you do here... or here , demonstrating your enlightened tolerance and understanding for other cultures. Way to be consistent Otis. -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif --
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div>
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
<br>Again, who are we to judge the behavior of these cultures? Anti-semitism has been part of the fabric of European culture for centuries if not millennia, so who are we to start judging <i>now</i>? </div>
</blockquote>
<br>So because something went on for a long time we should never judge it? Right.<br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div>
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
<br>Morality and personal accountability are such obsolete Dead White Male Imperialistic constructs, my Womyn's Studies professor told me so!<br> </div>
</blockquote>
<br>Oh! Sorry! You're right. I apologise. Your womyn's studies professor said that morality and accountability are dead white men's constructs so we should just forget all about them. Good point, well made.<br><br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div>
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
<br>Originally posted by mikileen:<br>Whether or not I went to university is relevant how? So if I didn't go to university I wouldn't be eligible to an opinion? </div>
</blockquote>
<br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div>
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
<br>Of course it isn't! If you didn't study for an undergraduate degree in a liberal arts discipline, you are not qualified to talk about anything related to culture or politics. Why else spend all that money otherwise? </div>
</blockquote>
<br><br>It isn't or it is? Make up your mind. Are you seriously telling us all that if we didn't study liberal arts we're not qualified to post opinions on culture or politics here? You're joking, surely! All the same it must be nice to be qualified to call all the users of a site devoted to culture "a bunch of fags" as you do here... or here , demonstrating your enlightened tolerance and understanding for other cultures. Way to be consistent Otis. -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif --
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tim Hudson:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the fat otaku stuffing the aisle that you are referring to? </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ok, Repeat after me...<BR>WE ARE NOT IN JAPAN AND USING JAPANESE WORDS DOES NOT MAKE ME LOOK SMARTER. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>"Otaku" has been gaining currency among English-only anime nerds. Ever hear of Kotaku, the video game blog? IIRC, I was also familiar with the term "otaku" before my first Japanese class in 2000.<BR><BR>Would you have made the same gripe about a Japanese word that's been inducted into English, like "kamikaze" or "geisha"? "Otaku" isn't there yet, but it's getting there.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dnl2ba:<BR>"Otaku" isn't there yet, but it's getting there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>God I hope not, it's an ugly word. And let's face it, you know EXACTLY the kind of person who's going to use it...
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Walshicus:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dnl2ba:<BR>"Otaku" isn't there yet, but it's getting there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>God I hope not, it's an ugly word. And let's face it, you know EXACTLY the kind of person who's going to use it... </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Not really, please describe this person. Also FWIW, otaku are rarely fat.
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Uh, in Japan, otaku is not a complement. In fact, it has become quite an insult. Like calling someone a pathetic shut-in.
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