Car dealers say they can’t sell EVs, tell Biden to slow their rollout

The US already lags far behind China and Europe, but we're going too fast, dealers say.

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[Skyssx]

People can't afford your EVs. Price your EVs within reach of the market and you'll sell them. ezpz

 

[Skyssx]

Look into buying a used plug-in hybrid. You'll get a nice tax credit of up to 4000 or 30% of the vehicle provided the vehicle costs under 20K.

Anyway, re EV sales there is also apprehension because of unknown costs re battery replacement and long term costs. In the short term, the costs are super low but if you keep a car for 10 years, what is it going to be like. The range and HUGE size demanded by US consumers is the main issue though. Sadly, a vast majority of people want to drive tanks. This leads me to think that the real problem is that our gasoline taxes are too low.

FWIW, we have a 2011 Prius and a 2017 i3. The batteries are fine and they're both very cheap to run never mind the low environmental impact. I am worried about the i3 battery 5 years down the road though.

You and me are extreme outliers in keeping vehicles around. You've got that 2011, and I have a 2008. The average time someone keeps a new car is 8.4 years. Notable is this is different from average age of vehicles on the road. If the battery can last 8.4 years, most people will be fine with that. Hell, that's what drives my phone purchases; does the battery still hold a charge! Probably an industry will form around taking EVs with worn out packs and refurbing them for a quick sale. Hopefully that industry will concentrate on methods that don't increase fire risks!

 

[Skyssx]

Six figures isn’t really what it was when we were kids you know….around these parts it’s practically median salary.

It's still more than the vast majority of Americans, though. I do not qualify for the fully $7500 tax credit even though I make more than 74% of Americans! When 3/4 of Americans do not actually qualify for the top-line number, there's a big problem with your incentive.

 

[Skyssx]

How does anyone figure this? A smaller (220 V / 20 A) L2 charger doesn't draw any more than an old midsize AC compressor. Does the HOA prohibit ACs, too?

(Where do you live in that HOAs think they have any authority over what you plug in inside your house?!)

Sooo it's the same issue as "your house can't support a L2 charger" but on the size of neighborhoods. In an astounding lack of foresight, whole-ass neighborhoods in the 1960s were built with 50A service to each house. The wiring on the poles was sized with this in mind. With a gas oven and gas water heater, what house could possibly need more than 50A of electricity?! While there's clearly spare capacity in the pole lines, if the power company comes and installs a 100-200A service to a few homes on a block, then tells the rest of the homes "SUCKS TO SUCK!" you're going to have a lot of very very angry people.

yes I know charging could still be effected with smort panels and scheduled charging. nuance is hard tho.

 

[Skyssx]

I’m a bit surprised to see the dealers that aren’t on that list. I thought for sure the Chevy dealer that made a Bolt test drive as unpleasant as possible would’ve signed.

Actually, no dealer I’ve ever purchased from signed. Notably, the Subaru side of one such dealer is on the list, but not the Mazda side.

Wait does Subaru even have an EV? I thought zero Solterras had actually shipped?

 

[Skyssx]

Don't be ridiculous. We've increased capacity 1228% since 1950. There's absolutely nothing keeping us from increasing capacity another 30% over the coming decades for EVs.

They're talking about their specific neighborhood.

 

[Skyssx]

You don't need to ask your power provider to add a 20A circuit to your breaker. Why are they involved?

I believe in this specific case the answer is "the HOA".

 

[Skyssx]

I'll ask a variant of the same question - why is an HOA required for adding a 20A breaker to your existing panel?

It's been answered a few different times in thread.

 

[Skyssx]

Do you have a source for not getting the full credit based on income? My wife and I do not make six figures. According to everything I've read, including the IRS website, we qualify for the full $7,500 From IRS.gov:

Do you pay $7500 in taxes?

Tho some people have kindly linked articles about 2024 differences in this thread?

 

[Skyssx]

It really hasn't, I've read it. People are claiming it's due to limited neighborhood service which applies to people wanting to upgrade their main panel rating (ie., 50/60A to 100A/150A/200A). There's zero chance the neighborhood wiring is underspec'd to the ratings of the panels, so each home just needs to stay within their rating. Again, that's not face value, it's concurrent usage. You can double your maximum theoretical loading in a panel as long as it's clear it isn't used concurrently.

Riiiite and while that is a thing you can coordinate among your household, that is absolutely not a thing that can realistically be coordinated in a whole neighborhood.

 

[Skyssx]

Correct. So I 100% believe (annoyingly) that they're not letting someone upgrade their panel from 50/60A to something higher, etc. That doesn't mean you can't add more circuits to said 50/60A panel, because absolutely the neighborhood grid has to be designed to deliver rated panel loads.

AH! So the issue there is you need a licensed electrician to install a circuit, and that electrician needs a permit, and the HOA, on receiving a permit request can say "WOAH BUDDY SLOW THE FUCK DOWN You can't hog all our electricity!" and are unlikely to be mollified by the homeowner saying "I know how to fucking schedule appliance use".

 

[Skyssx]

With the corresponding cost increase to make one of the few attractive EVs in the market no longer attractive.

I hope I'm wrong, though.

That is approximately 10,000% what will happen, yes.

 

[Skyssx]

Since when in the fuck do HOA's have anything to do with pulling permits?

When they own and are responsible for the maintenance of the electrical grid serving the homes in their association.

 

[Skyssx]

The ones that think this way are wrong, too. BEVs don't need oil changes ever or brake jobs nearly as often, but they're heavy, so they tend to need tires and suspension work (shock absorbers, ball joints, tie rod ends, etc.) more often. Other than oil changes (which aren't really big money makers) ICE vehicles don't need much service these days, either. Things like brake fluid flushes are time related rather than mileage (EVs use coolant to cool the battery) so that should be the same for either type.
Dealers are just making excuses for being afraid of the unknown.

They're not any heavier than a conventional SUV or truck. Shit man my truck is 6000#, just hit 123456 miles, and it's still on all the original pivots and joints. This is such an imagined issue.

 

[Skyssx]

I'd be interested to know how the HOA would even fucking know you did it if the charger was inside your home.

This is absolutely a thing I would do, but i'm not gonna recommend ANYONE do their own high voltage work. That's a thing that kills people.

 

[Skyssx]

I think the point is that, like vehicle to like vehicle, BEVs are much heavier. A Model 3 is 1,000 pounds heavier than a similar Elantra. Both have car-sized and rated suspension components. The BEV components will wear out faster than on a car of the same size.

That your truck, with substantially more heavy-duty components, has OEM parts 120K+ miles into it's lifespan isn't a fair comparison. I'd like to see that against a Rivian R1T (over 7,000 pounds lol) with 120K miles,

I really don't care enough to make a market spanning spreadsheet, but the F-150 lightning weighs 6000-6900#. I am certain my specific truck has models with a higher curb weight, but again I am not going to bother to look up the specific figures, so the max 15% difference in weight is even lower.

EVs heavier? Maybe. Copper is pretty dense. But probably not enough to actually cause a noticeable difference in engineering required.

 

[Skyssx]

Guess where all that electricity comes from, to power all those environmentally-friendly electric vehicles...View attachment 68471

Well it's good everyone buying an EV is enthusiastic in their support for at minimum nuclear power, and likely wind + solar as well. Ass.

 

[Skyssx]

View attachment 68476
I hate to point out the obvious but maybe this is why it's hard for dealers to sell EVs

I mean. The take-away for me is Tesla still has the luxury market sewn up, and would you fucking look at that the cheapest EV is right there at the top of the list in sales!

 

[Skyssx]

What we can do is address false arguments. For example the fact that nobody wants them. People like you will point to polls that show 60% (or whatever) aren't considering an EV for their next vehicle, but that means 40% are. EVs currently account for around 9% of new car purchases, so there's still a tremendous amount of upside. And those polls continue to climb every year.

I think my favorite part of stats like that is the entire apparatus for drilling, refining, and distributing petroleum products collapses with a 30% decrease in demand. So if 40% of people do want an EV, then it is inevitable EVs will be the only thing available in my lifetime.

 

[Skyssx]

A good analogy is like buying something with Micro-USB (or Lightning only Apple Keyboard) today. Sure, I can use a custom Micro-USB / Lightning cable for that one device while everything else is on USB-C, but why make my life more complicated? In 5 years, I'll still have to keep track of that one unique cable.

The ideal analogy here is this motherfucking thing. USB micro-B 3.0. If you have a device that still uses one of these you curse it every single time you have to find the single operational cable you still have for it.

 

[Skyssx]

Public chargers. Chargers at some work sites (like mine). Which admittedly aren't the easiest way to solely charge, but you absolutely can do it.

Like telling everyone to solve the climate crisis by going vegan, telling people to sit in a parking lot outside town for a few hours each week is in no way going to get any sign-on.

 

[Skyssx]

Why? I did it for months

Oh I missed your silly 'outside of town' and 'for a few hours' nonsense. Cmon, get serious.

Just repeating positions posters in this thread have previously forwarded as serious solutions for apartment dwellers.

 

[Skyssx]

What is it with you people thinking it takes "a couple hours" to charge an EV?

Real world demonstrations by vocal EV advocates?

 

[Skyssx]

Fuck. Imagine cutting out every one of those fuel stops from your life. That's what owning an EV and charging at home is like.

The particular comment EtherGnat responded to was specifically about apartment dwellers. There's no 'home charging' at an apartment.

 

[Skyssx]

In the overwhelming number of cases, the F-150 is carrying one 200lb person somewhere, so you have a payload/mass ratio of 200/6000 or about 3%. That's about the Falcon 9 payload to mass ratio for LEO. I don't care what drivetrain you're using, if you have a 3% payload efficiency, your vehicle is going to be a problem.

I'm discussing this over in the other EV thread and getting shit on for it. v0v

The original point here was "EVs need more suspension work because they are heavier" which is just not the case.

 

[Skyssx]

How intentionally daft do you have to be to have difficulty recognizing use less energy from cleaner sources is a good thing?

I am unaware of any cases where Jevons Paradox was shown to be false. Efficiency gains always result in more resource use. This is why energy generation has to be 100% carbon free long term.

 

[Skyssx]

Yeah, I'm not watching a 30 minute YouTube video by some redneck just because you can't make your point yourself. It's been popping up on my recommended list so I can only assume it's clickbait. Considering it started with a drawn out bit where someone fails the square peg, round hole game you give to infants, I'll pass on it and give you another chance.

I have an EV. It only takes hours to charge when you're L1/L2 charging, which you only do when your car is stilling forever while you do something else like, you know, sleeping. A DCFC chargers the car just as quickly as you can go refill your drink and empty your bladder.

Nope. It's called a reference. I'm certain you'd ask for one if I stated the facts myself, so I preempted that and just gave it to you directly! Aging Wheels is one of the most pro EV channels on the Internet period. Last year they teamed up with Technology Connections, another extremely pro EV channel, to demonstrate the feasibility of EV road-tripping, including demonstrations on how to use A Better Routeplanner effectively. Pretty wild to toss out pejoratives based on thumbnails, too. But you do you!

 

[Skyssx]

I'm confused how a PHEV solves anything. You'd still need to charge it.

They can charge overnight on a 15A circuit.

 

[Skyssx]

I have an EV. I know what charging it is like. At home, it's 3 seconds to plug in and I never think about it again. On the road, when needed, it's 10-15 minutes while I take a piss and grab a snack.

Once again, just so it is absolutely clear, we are not talking about charging at home. We're talking about apartment dwelling people who have absolutely no way to charge at home. That's the entire point of this particular sub-thread. As for "10-15 minutes" I flat out do not believe you. Prove it. I've provided video references. Go generate your own.