Car dealers say they can’t sell EVs, tell Biden to slow their rollout

The US already lags far behind China and Europe, but we're going too fast, dealers say.

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[johnnoi]

Aren't most manufacturers selling $60K - $150K electric vehicles? They chased after the whales; GM discontinued the Chevy Bolt, their best selling EV and decided to offer more expensive vehicles. Of course demand plummeted - we call can't afford driving F150 lightnings around.

You can buy a new Bolt from the dealer in Canada.

 

[ERIFNOMI]

Do you have a source for not getting the full credit based on income? My wife and I do not make six figures. According to everything I've read, including the IRS website, we qualify for the full $7,500 From IRS.gov:

It's a tax rebate, not a tax refund. You can only get back what your tax liability is. If your tax liability is only $1k for the year, you forfeit the other $6,500.

 

[zombi3g]

The Nissan Leaf and VW ID.4 are both in the $25k-$35k range.

That said, I wouldn’t wish a Nissan Leaf on anyone but a commuter car buyer. It uses an outdated charging standard and passive battery cooling.

 

[Snark218]

The vehicle side of this largely existed (2023 Bolt, 259 mile range, DC fast charging, msrp $27.5k), but Chevy was like "nah, we need those batteries to make expensive-ass trucks that tear up the streets and take up too much space and make it as easy as possible to run over pedestrians, so fuck you, everybody who liked that there was a reasonably-sized and affordable EV."

No. The Bolt was using a totally different pack and cell design that's now obsolete. It was not competing for cells with trucks or anything else.

 

[Skyssx]

It really hasn't, I've read it. People are claiming it's due to limited neighborhood service which applies to people wanting to upgrade their main panel rating (ie., 50/60A to 100A/150A/200A). There's zero chance the neighborhood wiring is underspec'd to the ratings of the panels, so each home just needs to stay within their rating. Again, that's not face value, it's concurrent usage. You can double your maximum theoretical loading in a panel as long as it's clear it isn't used concurrently.

Riiiite and while that is a thing you can coordinate among your household, that is absolutely not a thing that can realistically be coordinated in a whole neighborhood.

 

[euskalzabe]

I'm not going to shed a tear for dealerships. which are the bane of the car buying experience. That said, automakers are just as much to blame here. Instead of making affordable EVs, plugins and even standard affordable cars, lots are filled with EVs that are twice as expensive as an average person can afford, traditional vehicles with insane markups and somehow back-ordered on cars that people actually want and can afford (Toyota and Ford with their Maverick).

Yeah, I bought my current 2017 Prius for $18K selling the dealer my old Chevy for $5K, so the final price tag was $13K to pay. I don't think I'd ever buy a car over $20K. In China and Japan one can already buy way cheaper sub $20K EVs - I don't need a giant SUV, I don't need a million things in it - it just needs to be electric, preferably a sedan (because I don't like the idea that if I ever hit someone in an accident I'd likely kill them with a big honking monstertruck type car), and 200-300 miles is more than enough for driving regularly in town and at most a couple hours in-state. I can use my hybrid Prius for longer trips.

If anyone made a $15K plugin EV, I'd buy it RIGHT NOW. No one does. So, no one gets my money.

 

[zombi3g]

You can buy a new Bolt from the dealer in Canada.

GM announced cancellation of the Bolt but then realized they’d made a huge mistake. They are coming out with a revised “Ultium battery system” version next year. It will be interesting to see if the range and charge speed are improved at all.

 

[lessthanjoey]

Riiiite and while that is a thing you can coordinate among your house hold, that is absolutely not a think that can realistically be coordinated in an whole neighborhood.

Correct. So I 100% believe (annoyingly) that they're not letting someone upgrade their panel from 50/60A to something higher, etc. That doesn't mean you can't add more circuits to said 50/60A panel, because absolutely the neighborhood grid has to be designed to deliver rated panel loads.

 

[CatBus]

If you can't see buying a bolt for $20k, you're probably flat out not buying a new car. There isn't a lot of new car market left.

The Bolt is $26,500. I'd buy a Bolt for up to $22K with no qualms. Qualms start building with every grand beyond that, and it becomes untenable by $26K. There are plenty of new gas cars in the no-qualm and low-qualm zone to choose from.

 

[Snark218]

It's a tax rebate, not a tax refund. You can only get back what your tax liability is. If your tax liability is only $1k for the year, you forfeit the other $6,500.

Unless you, as is now allowed, sign that tax credit over to the dealership, which absolutely does have the tax liability to cover it, and which is then required to knock the value of the credit off your purchase or lease price.

 

[Snark218]

The Bolt is $26,500. I'd buy a Bolt for up to $22K with no qualms. Qualms start building with every grand beyond that, and it becomes untenable by $26K. There are plenty of new gas cars in the no-qualm and no-qualm zone to choose from.

There's very few new cars in that zone.

 

[Unremarkable]

I live in Denver (we get winter too), and given the number of EVs around (including my own) it's clear they do work for a whole lot of us.

There's a YouTuber who lives in Saskatchewan and has a channel where he talks about how much he loves his Tesla.

Tonight the temperatures in the major cities are forecasted to go down to -15 Celsius or so. Sadly, it will not stay as balmy and warm as -15 overnight for long. Saskatchewan temperatures regularly dip down to -30 overnight during the winter.

 

[Dzov]

You don't need to ask your power provider to add a 20A circuit to your breaker. Why are they involved?

Especially when most home charging will be at the time of lowest electrical demand -- overnight.

 

[zombi3g]

A lot of the perception is it's not easy to charge while on the road. This isn't wrong. I mean, needing a different app for each system is ridiculous. Make it like as reliable as a regular gas station - even if it takes longer, it will do wonders for adoption.

Apple Maps has started rolling out support for finding chargers. Hopefully Google maps/Waze will do the same soon.

 

[jhollinger]

The 2023 Chevy Bolt MSRP is $26,500. It's a rare outlier, but it's there. Admittedly even that's still too rich for my blood, but it's not the "these people are on another planet" pricing you see with most other EVs. I can see maybe being able to pay that much, with some sort of EV tax break, or something.

Very much this.

True, the Bolt's probably an affordable exception in my case. But as you said, it's an increasingly rare exception. Even then, I read here that they ripped out Car Play/Android Auto in favor of some rent-seeking, subscription-based, BS. Kind of don't want to reward them for that behavior, but I guess spite is its own form of privilege.

 

[m0nckywrench]

Our next car is going to be an EV for sure; I might even buy a shot-out Leaf. My wife has a 1.1 mile commute, I've got a 6 mile commute, and we're both finally at "Nah, I legit might retire from this job" spots.

But we'll have to keep an ICE around either way, for 4x a year 6-hours-each-way trips to the family. That's doable in a day, with time for a nice visit. Make that into 8 or 10 hours with multiple stops for charging, and that turns into a not-so-much.

It's trivial for millions of American households to have multiple vehicles while only driving one or two daily so an EV used most of the time leaves a truck or SUV for its specialty role and it's all win. The goal is pollution reduction after all and a truck for hauling a horse trailer, camper or boat harms no one while sitting.

As more used EVs enter the market they will be more attractive. Right now I could afford a Tesla for cash but that pile of money buys many years use of my gassers without spending it at once. I'm far from the only one.

When BEVs beat gassers at everything normal customers (not fanatics who typically do not understand they are that) want then they will take over the market. That time will come sooner than many expect.

 

[Skyssx]

Correct. So I 100% believe (annoyingly) that they're not letting someone upgrade their panel from 50/60A to something higher, etc. That doesn't mean you can't add more circuits to said 50/60A panel, because absolutely the neighborhood grid has to be designed to deliver rated panel loads.

AH! So the issue there is you need a licensed electrician to install a circuit, and that electrician needs a permit, and the HOA, on receiving a permit request can say "WOAH BUDDY SLOW THE FUCK DOWN You can't hog all our electricity!" and are unlikely to be mollified by the homeowner saying "I know how to fucking schedule appliance use".

 

[ranthog]

The Bolt is $26,500. I'd buy a Bolt for up to $22K with no qualms. Qualms start building with every grand beyond that, and it becomes untenable by $26K. There are plenty of new gas cars in the no-qualm and no-qualm zone to choose from.

In the US you can buy it for $20k with incentives (as you probably won't be buying the exact base model).

 

[atu30004]

"...And I really have to ask: Why are four Polestar dealers included on this list?"

BECAUSE THEY CAN'T SELL THEM !

 

[Mostly Ignorant]

GM announced cancellation of the Bolt but then realized they’d made a huge mistake. They are coming out with a revised “Ultium battery system” version next year. It will be interesting to see if the range and charge speed are improved at all.

With the corresponding cost increase to make one of the few attractive EVs in the market no longer attractive.

I hope I'm wrong, though.

 

[Skyssx]

With the corresponding cost increase to make one of the few attractive EVs in the market no longer attractive.

I hope I'm wrong, though.

That is approximately 10,000% what will happen, yes.

 

[Dzov]

Riiiite and while that is a thing you can coordinate among your household, that is absolutely not a thing that can realistically be coordinated in a whole neighborhood.

People charge cars at night, where the power companies have plenty of reserve capacity. Also, these home chargers aren't pulling that many amps. The electrical companies and infrastructure will be fine.

 

[Andyvan]

I note that most EVs will change to the Tesla connector in a year or two. Could that have anything to do with weak sales in the interim? If I was in the market for a new car, it would cause me to try to defer a purchase.

I know there's a name for this, named after a defunct computer mfgr that nuked its sales the same way, but I can't remember the name.

 

[Berger_Fan]

Wait does Subaru even have an EV? I thought zero Solterras had actually shipped?

I test drove one this last weekend. They had 7 on the lot. All of them were the top trim level fully optioned.

This is a consistent blind spot in the Ars commentariat. There's a fairly large minority of people that can't; roughly 65% of people own their home which leaves 35% that don't. Now, the number of people that rent apartments is roughly 20% of the population; the difference is people renting town homes or stand alone homes and a percentage of them can probably at least trickle charge. But apartment dwellers? I don't think I've ever lived in one where you could. And 20% isn't exactly an edge case. I'm not sure what the best solution is; encourage landlords to have set ups for at least slow charging? Better public charging infrastructure? At the moment it's not a super high priority, as that group is more likely to buy used, and we're a ways out from used EV's being the norm vs used ICE.

I've lived in five apartments in the last 40 years. Four of them had a standard outlet within 30 ft of where I parked. The one that didn't was a second floor unit on the backside of the building.

 

[ranthog]

AH! So the issue there is you need a licensed electrician to install a circuit, and that electrician needs a permit, and the HOA, on receiving a permit request can say "WOAH BUDDY SLOW THE FUCK DOWN You can't hog all our electricity!" and are unlikely to be mollified by the homeowner saying "I know how to fucking schedule appliance use".

Since when in the fuck do HOA's have anything to do with pulling permits?

 

[alittlevinyl]

Many industries are experiencing similar supply gluts. Bicycles are piling up. Who do their makers complain to? Car dealers are supremely arrogant fcks. They feel they are owed over sticker price by you and anything less is highway robbery. Remember when car ownership was a universally reviled experience? And Tesla wanted delivery and car dealers lobbied states to block and it took years for Tesla to reach a sustainable number of customers? It’s arguable that EVs circa Tesla have always been underselling, whether it’s underdelivering on demand, then recall backlash, then infrastructure scarcity and vandalism and lack of maintenance and user confusion and frustration in an obvious beta stage. We’re lucky we’re here at all. And now they want further delays to a change that is never not going to happen. Frack em.

 

[Berger_Fan]

I note that most EVs will change to the Tesla connector in a year or two. Could that have anything to do with weak sales in the interim? If I was in the market for a new car, it would cause me to try to defer a purchase.

I know there's a name for this, named after a defunct computer mfgr that nuked its sales the same way, but I can't remember the name.

Kaypro

 

[ERIFNOMI]

Unless you, as is now allowed, sign that tax credit over to the dealership, which absolutely does have the tax liability to cover it, and which is then required to knock the value of the credit off your purchase or lease price.

I believe that doesn't start until next year, which might very well be part of the slowdown. If you wait just a month to make your purchase, you get the credit applied at the time of purchase instead of having to wait for a refund in April.

I suspect it'll be taken off the sale price (like when you do a trade) which reduces the sales tax too.

This workaround doesn't work for the income limit though. If you exceed the income limit, the IRS will want their money back.

 

[lessthanjoey]

AH! So the issue there is you need a licensed electrician to install a circuit, and that electrician needs a permit, and the HOA, on receiving a permit request can say "WOAH BUDDY SLOW THE FUCK DOWN You can't hog all our electricity!" and are unlikely to be mollified by the homeowner saying "I know how to fucking schedule appliance use".

I'd love to see the details, I'm still astounded that an HOA could get involved for such a trivial change purely inside a house. The homeowner has to schedule their usage, because - like in just about every house in the country - the total rating of all breakers vastly exceeds the rated service. This is normal. HOA should only be concerned about rated service.

 

[federal]

Wait, so the dealerships that rely on the majority of their profits coming from service revenue and as a result have been discouraging consumers buying EVs because there's a lot less shit on there to break are saying that EV sales suck?

The auto industry deserves to die. It won't, but it deserves to.

The ones that think this way are wrong, too. BEVs don't need oil changes ever or brake jobs nearly as often, but they're heavy, so they tend to need tires and suspension work (shock absorbers, ball joints, tie rod ends, etc.) more often. Other than oil changes (which aren't really big money makers) ICE vehicles don't need much service these days, either. Things like brake fluid flushes are time related rather than mileage (EVs use coolant to cool the battery) so that should be the same for either type.
Dealers are just making excuses for being afraid of the unknown.

 

[Skyssx]

Since when in the fuck do HOA's have anything to do with pulling permits?

When they own and are responsible for the maintenance of the electrical grid serving the homes in their association.

 

[zombi3g]

Most of their sales people don't know much of anything about the existing ICE vehicles, so not sure how this is any different not knowing anything about the EV.

The salespeople actively steer people away from the EV. As others have mentioned, this is probably a request from the owner of the dealership as EVs have much lower maintenance costs. This is the difference.

 

[quantumbyte]

... the dealerships inflated the numbers on this by having multiple dealerships with the same owner sign separately.

Spot on. I took all the Texas ones, and removing only those who are obviously owned by the same people (meaning I had to leave in "Mercedes-Benz of <x>" and "BMW of <x>") The list went from 281 to 143.

 

[Skyssx]

The ones that think this way are wrong, too. BEVs don't need oil changes ever or brake jobs nearly as often, but they're heavy, so they tend to need tires and suspension work (shock absorbers, ball joints, tie rod ends, etc.) more often. Other than oil changes (which aren't really big money makers) ICE vehicles don't need much service these days, either. Things like brake fluid flushes are time related rather than mileage (EVs use coolant to cool the battery) so that should be the same for either type.
Dealers are just making excuses for being afraid of the unknown.

They're not any heavier than a conventional SUV or truck. Shit man my truck is 6000#, just hit 123456 miles, and it's still on all the original pivots and joints. This is such an imagined issue.

 

[ranthog]

I'd love to see the details, I'm still astounded that an HOA could get involved for such a trivial change purely inside a house. The homeowner has to schedule their usage, because - like in just about every house in the country - the total rating of all breakers vastly exceeds the rated service. This is normal. HOA should only be concerned about rated service.

I'd be interested to know how the HOA would even fucking know you did it if the charger was inside your home.

 

[Snark218]

I believe that doesn't start until next year, which might very well be part of the slowdown. If you wait just a month to make your purchase, you get the credit applied at the time of purchase instead of having to wait for a refund in April.

I suspect it'll be taken off the sale price (like when you do a trade) which reduces the sales tax too.

This workaround doesn't work for the income limit though. If you exceed the income limit, the IRS will want their money back.

No. That's not how it works. You didn't claim the credit, the dealer did. The IRS deals exclusively with the dealer and the tax credit is against their tax burden, not yours. Your income and tax burden doesn't even enter the picture as far as the IRS is concerned.

 

[ERIFNOMI]

I note that most EVs will change to the Tesla connector in a year or two. Could that have anything to do with weak sales in the interim? If I was in the market for a new car, it would cause me to try to defer a purchase.

I know there's a name for this, named after a defunct computer mfgr that nuked its sales the same way, but I can't remember the name.

That should only give you pause if you're looking to buy a car that uses CHAdeMO, but then that was the case when everyone was using CCS too.

You can passively convert between NACS and CCS. It's a non-issue.

 

[SunnyD]

Maybe... just maybe... price EVs affordably BEFORE the credits. They'll fly off the lot.

 

[illuminancer]

There's a dip in sales cuz every1 is waiting for the ID Buzz.

I really kind of wanted one of those.

 

[alansh42]

Unless you still have one of these, you should be able to at least add a 240V/20A circuit.

I mean, people do, but it's pretty much only buildings prior to 1970 without A/C or electrical appliances.