The US already lags far behind China and Europe, but we're going too fast, dealers say.
See full article...
See full article...
Car dealers say they can’t sell EVs, tell Biden to slow their rollout
- Thread starter JournalBot
- Start date
This is absolutely a thing I would do, but i'm not gonna recommend ANYONE do their own high voltage work. That's a thing that kills people.
Upvote
11
(14
/
-3)
7 of the 10 most popular cars in America are in that zone, according to this site.
https://insurify.com/car-insurance/insights/most-popular-cars/
Maybe it's only those seven cars and nothing else, but that may also explain why they're so popular.
EDIT: the article seems to address this:
Last edited:
Upvote
6
(6
/
0)
Permits for electrical work generally go to the local government and not the people responsible for the local electrical grid. They'd be responsible for your service drop and meter at most. That responsibility generally stops past that.
Building codes take over at that point and that is generally local government.
Upvote
15
(15
/
0)
Sorry if this was said in the seven pages of comments, but there is a confusion here.
9% in the US is for both BEV and PHEV, while 14% in the EU is only for BEVs.
Total BEV + PHEV in the EU is closer to 25% in 2023, so yeah that's a significant difference in uptake.
Upvote
20
(20
/
0)
I will never buy a Tesla as long as you know who owns it, but identifying the dealer experience as a significant roadblock to customer adoption was an important step in their success.
Upvote
12
(17
/
-5)
I needed a panel upgrade. Why? Because the panel was too small - there wasn't room for another breaker. If you have a 100A service or less - which is about half the homes in the country - odds are your panel is full or maybe has room for a 10A or 15A breaker. And I have a 200A service, but various upgrades to the house by previous owners filled up what open slots the panel had.
Remember the physical size of the panel is almost always correlated to the service to the house. Why install a 60/120 panel in a house with 100A or less service - you couldn't possibly install that many breakers on that service. So you'll have a 30/60 panel, and that panel is probably ¾ full or more. Ours was packed. So we upgraded it to a 60/120 panel.
If you have a 40A AC unit, which was almost certainly retrofitted into any property with 100A or less service, it's VERY likely you have already consumed your entire margin of safety on that service, and adding another 20A that would run concurrently with that 40A unit, possibly an electric water heater running overnight, an electric furnace or baseboard heating overnight, etc. And not everyone lives in an area where service upgrades from the curb are available. My grandfathers house was 800 sq ft, which was the average size of homes built at that time. Every single home in his neighborhood, apart from the various upgrades that have taken place over the years are that size. Massive swaths of major city outskirts are homes built in this era, and many don't have community service upgrades adequate to upgrade all units.
Yeah, homes built in the last 50 years, no problem. And most people on this forum probably live in those homes. But if you're a low income person of color that has the benefit of owning their own home, odds are pretty damn good they live in a neighborhood like my grandfathers. And there are a LOT of these people. Just not on Ars.
Upvote
32
(33
/
-1)
The electrician also isn't going to give two fucks about your HOA. They can't get into any trouble for doing it.
Upvote
13
(15
/
-2)
Nope, you have to provide your tax info at time of purchase.
And if when you go to file your taxes, you exceed the income limits, you will owe the IRS.
From the IRS FAQ.https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/topic-h-transfer-of-new-clean-vehicle-credit-and-previously-owned-clean-vehicles-credit
Upvote
20
(21
/
-1)
Seems a lot more likely the conversation went something like;
Homeowner to electrician: I want an EVSE
Electrician: Okay, looks like you're at the max amount for your service panel, lets talk to the utility about a service upgrade
Utility (PSE in this case) to electrician/homeowner/HOA: Sure, we will need to upgrade the transformer for the neighborhood because it can't handle 200amp service, and supply wiring to the house, that'll be $25k
HOA: Dear residents of the neighborhood, a request has been submitted by a neighbor that will require $25k in electrical upgrades so they can add an electric car, your dues will go from $10/month to $200/month, what say you?
Neighborhood to everyone: fuck off
Upvote
19
(25
/
-6)
Mostly Ignorant
Ars Centurion
I think the point is that, like vehicle to like vehicle, BEVs are much heavier. A Model 3 is 1,000 pounds heavier than a similar Elantra. Both have car-sized and rated suspension components. The BEV components will wear out faster than on a car of the same size.
That your truck, with substantially more heavy-duty components, has OEM parts 120K+ miles into it's lifespan isn't a fair comparison. I'd like to see that against a Rivian R1T (over 7,000 pounds lol) with 120K miles,
Upvote
-9
(8
/
-17)
I love it. Car sales people acting like we should trust anything they say after being the butt of every joke regarding trust worthiness since they were first created.
Last edited:
Upvote
20
(20
/
0)
Good to know. In that case, it may be in my zone... whenever I end up needing a new car.
Upvote
0
(0
/
0)
Mostly Ignorant
Ars Centurion
Pretty much spot on, except the HOA doesn't care at all about the work, nor have anything to do with approving/disapproving it. Just involved them to see if the community would be interested in pooling upgrade costs. They were not. Such is life.
Upvote
25
(25
/
0)
I certainly misunderstood the pooling the cost point, in my earlier post. I thought the HOA was just not allowing the upgrades. That certainly represents a different issue.
Upvote
18
(18
/
0)
I missed the part about "You can't get back more on the credit than you owe in taxes."
Upvote
1
(1
/
0)
Upvote
5
(5
/
0)
A single model that fits your needs that you can't afford to buy is the same as no car at all. When manufacturers finally decide to get serious about low priced models you'll see adoption go up. An affordable car makes it easier for someone to say "well at least it meets 90% of my needs".
Yes, there are some lower priced options, but if I go to most car lots, I can see many choices in ICE cars and 3 trim levels of a single EV model. Not very enticing.
You can't just sell cars on facts. It's one of the most emotion driven large purchases anyone makes.
Upvote
13
(13
/
0)
True, but you can use either your previous year's income or the current year's as the limit. You would only have to pay it back if you went over last year and thought you would not go over this year but did. That's going to be very few people.
Upvote
4
(4
/
0)
I really don't care enough to make a market spanning spreadsheet, but the F-150 lightning weighs 6000-6900#. I am certain my specific truck has models with a higher curb weight, but again I am not going to bother to look up the specific figures, so the max 15% difference in weight is even lower.
EVs heavier? Maybe. Copper is pretty dense. But probably not enough to actually cause a noticeable difference in engineering required.
Upvote
7
(8
/
-1)
This is one of those grammar/statistics pet peeves that I just cannot get over. My brain contorts and breaks at the idea that one thing does something three times not as much as something else does.
Upvote
21
(21
/
0)
Do you have tandem breakers everywhere? You can fit a lot of circuits in a panel using tandem breakers! And in your case if the 200A service was sufficient (which it almost always is) you can add a subpanel, again without needing anything except local government permits because it doesn't affect the service rating coming into your house).
Since there's been so much discussion of this here, I just went and totaled up my panels:
Main 200A Panel (also remember the panel ratings are @ 240V)
240V: 1x100A (subpanel), 2x60A, 2x50A, 1x20A
120V: 11x15A, 1x20A
Overall breakers/service rating ratio: 2.25x
100A Subpanel:
240V: 2x30A, 1x40A, 1x20A
120V: 13x20A
Overall breakers/panel main breaker rating ratio: 2.5x
Upvote
-2
(6
/
-8)
A combination of renewable, nuclear, and fossil fuel sources. You can look up the mix in your area here:
https://www.epa.gov/egrid/power-profiler#/
Upvote
37
(37
/
0)
Yeah, what we really need is a carbon tax, and a big one.
Good luck getting that one passed by the current congress!
Upvote
9
(10
/
-1)
Well it's good everyone buying an EV is enthusiastic in their support for at minimum nuclear power, and likely wind + solar as well. Ass.
Upvote
14
(16
/
-2)
If I owned a house I could install a charger in I would definitely be in the market for an EV. But since buying a house is so far off and apartments in my city don't seem to have chargers the EV purchase gets pushed back too. About to pay off my current vehicle so I would be in a really good spot to get an EV and use it as my daily driver while having the ICE vehicle for long trips.
Upvote
8
(9
/
-1)
Yeah, but the point is it doesn't get you around the income limits and the IRS definitely does know you are connected to the credit, even though the dealer technically claimed it. Part of the deal is you pinky promise you're eligible, only the IRS doesn't fuck around if you lie to them.
Upvote
8
(9
/
-1)
In my case it's 100% solar-sourced (through some combo of grid batteries and buying more solar than my usage during the day to account for other sources at night). It costs a whopping 0.7c/kWh more than the default split through my power provider.
Upvote
16
(16
/
0)
I live is a smaller city (~100k) in the middle of the desert with only one dealer for each of the more mainstream brands (Ford, Chev, Dodge, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai etc) and no dealers for the more exotic luxury brands (BWM, MB, Audi, Lexus, Acura etc).
The local Ford, Honda, Hyundai and Mazda dealers are on that list. Additionally, the next largest city which which is an hour away and has a population of about 700k is where the luxury brands are sold has many on that list too. The Audi, BMW, Porsche and Subaru.
Not surprising I guess since EV uptake around here is abysmal and dominated by Tesla. But even those aren't what I would call common. Sighting any of the other brands on the road is a pretty rare occurrence. I don't see any way there will be anywhere close to 50% adoption by 2030 around here without direct gov't mandates which won't sit well with the locals.
The local Ford, Honda, Hyundai and Mazda dealers are on that list. Additionally, the next largest city which which is an hour away and has a population of about 700k is where the luxury brands are sold has many on that list too. The Audi, BMW, Porsche and Subaru.
Not surprising I guess since EV uptake around here is abysmal and dominated by Tesla. But even those aren't what I would call common. Sighting any of the other brands on the road is a pretty rare occurrence. I don't see any way there will be anywhere close to 50% adoption by 2030 around here without direct gov't mandates which won't sit well with the locals.
Upvote
3
(3
/
0)
I suspect this has a lot to do with the way less maintenance on electric cars that is necessary. Dealerships make a huge part of their money on maintenance.
Upvote
0
(0
/
0)
The automakers painted themselves into a corner by moving to large trucks and SUVs with low fuel economy. For a gasoline car, they can spend an extra $50 on a larger tank, but getting that 300-400 mile range now probably costs an extra $10K which either jacks up the price beyond affordability or cuts the EV range beyond practicality.
Upvote
9
(9
/
0)
Plus, and importantly for a product with a decade-long (or longer) lifespan, most grids have been getting greener over time, and the expectation is for that to continue.
Upvote
22
(22
/
0)
Also, I don't know who would want to buy an EV without NACS today.
Perhaps dealers and automakers should look into retrofit kits, so today's buyers aren't stuck with adapters for the duration of their vehicle ownership.
Perhaps dealers and automakers should look into retrofit kits, so today's buyers aren't stuck with adapters for the duration of their vehicle ownership.
Upvote
0
(5
/
-5)
So, the least trustworthy retailers in existence are whining about something stupid? I can't wait for my in-laws to tell me how this is a clear indicator of how bad a job Biden is doing while also forgetting how much they hate and distrust car dealerships.
Upvote
15
(15
/
0)
They're so efficient that it's still better than an ICEV. And of course here in the real world, the grid is a mix of many sources, so it's already better than that. A mix that can be improved which automatically makes an EV pollute even less. An ICEV will never pollute less than the day it rolls off the assembly line.
But I'm sure you already knew all of that.
Upvote
32
(32
/
0)
Playing "guess where the bullshit propaganda comes from" would be more productive in this case.
In the US, 40% of our electricity comes from clean, low carbon sources, expected to be 56% by 2050. Compare that to gasoline, which is 100% fossil fuel.
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=51698
And that's not the half of it. Regardless how the electricity is generated, EVs are a win for efficiency and the environment.
"power plants are more efficient than cars. Coal and nuclear are around 33% efficient, and combined cycle natural gas power plants are about 44% efficient. At the top end of the scale, hydropower is approximately 90% efficient. Even if the grid were entirely fueled by coal, 31% less energy would be needed to charge EVs than to fuel gasoline cars. If EVs were charged by natural gas, the total energy demand for highway transportation would fall by nearly half. Add in hydropower or other renewables, and the result gets even better, saving up to three-fourths of the energy currently used by gasoline-powered vehicles."
https://yaleclimateconnections.org/...missions-and-saves-massive-amounts-of-energy/
How intentionally daft do you have to be to have difficulty recognizing use less energy from cleaner sources is a good thing?
Upvote
37
(37
/
0)
Couple of things from someone who has driven an EV in the winter on a regular basis.
Item 2:
Winter driving is indeed a bitch. Range can go down 30%. Over that is just if you do short runs with a battery that was out overnight.
Item 3:
If you really live 300 miles from a city that you need to get to, and there are zero charging stations anywhere close to the route you're taking, then yes, an EV wouldn't work for you. However, I'd like to also point out that you're probably less than 0.1% of the total population in that situation.
In other words, your reason isn't the reason the dealerships are struggling to sell EVs.
Upvote
29
(30
/
-1)