The US already lags far behind China and Europe, but we're going too fast, dealers say.
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Car dealers say they can’t sell EVs, tell Biden to slow their rollout
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I suppose it's all relative though. People making 900k a year may decry EVs as too expensive because of their vacation home mortgage plus paying for their lover's secret apartment in Paris or whatever.
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I’m a bit surprised to see the dealers that aren’t on that list. I thought for sure the Chevy dealer that made a Bolt test drive as unpleasant as possible would’ve signed.
Actually, no dealer I’ve ever purchased from signed. Notably, the Subaru side of one such dealer is on the list, but not the Mazda side.
Actually, no dealer I’ve ever purchased from signed. Notably, the Subaru side of one such dealer is on the list, but not the Mazda side.
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Wait does Subaru even have an EV? I thought zero Solterras had actually shipped?
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Right now, there are a huge number of people for whom EVs would work if they got them. There are a smaller number for who EVs will not work yet under current technology or infrastructure build out. That means that it may be a while before some people can switch but we should still push forward to get the majority switched to EVs as soon as possible.
If there are no fast chargers between your cities, just wait. The charging networks are still being built out.
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Looking at just the dealers in Ohio, I noticed that most of the dealers listed are owned by four of biggest dealer networks in Ohio - Ganley (29 of 131), Germain (26/131), Performance (9/131), and Kenwood Dealer Group (16/131). One group, Germain, has dealerships in multiple states. With this info from one state of fifty, I'd say the petition is nothing but a bunch of crocodile tears because they can't continue to over charge and under deliver. I work for one the groups and I can see absolutely no reason for the same truck, I mean, SUV to cost $15K - $30K more for the luxury brand as posed to the "pedestrian" brand (Lincoln Corsair & Aviator versus Ford Escape & Explorer). Way back when, The Ford Fusion ICE and Hybrid cost the same. Same for Lincoln MKZ. And the spread between the Fusion and MKZ began at only a few grand. I really don't think a majority of vehicle buyers are staying away because of range anxiety. I think the reasons are excessive prices, no sedans/coupes only trucks, and bland to ugly styling.
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Wrong on so many levels. L1 or L2 charging in a common space is not a significant power draw, and regardless of whether the circuit is personalized to the unit owner or a common circuit, circuits can be controlled to respond to overall building utilization.
Separately, to the extent that this bizarre claim may be true, what proposals has your HOA discussed to improve that situation?
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I'm sure we're all furiously crying at the plight of car dealers, which happen to be the second shadiest motherfuckers around after mattress dealers.
As others have said, maybe don't make a pile of $80k+ EVs and then turn around and complain when people don't buy them.
As others have said, maybe don't make a pile of $80k+ EVs and then turn around and complain when people don't buy them.
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If I were in your situation I think I'd also wait on an EV.
That said, from talking with people the norm seems to be an oversensitivity to range issues. For instance, I live ~200km from the nearest DC fast charger but it has not been an issue for me at all. This of course assumes you can charge at home.
Cold weather hasn't been an issue for me either. Now, I don't have Canada cold, but I haven't seen a large efficiency decrease as long as I precondition while on a charger at home before I leave.
Again, I am not trying to take away from your circumstance but your circumstance is quite rare in the grand scheme of things.
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The problem in my case, is not that EV are not good enough, in fact they're probably better than current ICE car, but I literally can't afford the insane prices asked for EV (even with subsidies).
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Maybe we should just sell EVs direct from manufacturer...made to order? Problem solved.
Just looking at that list, to see there are 4000 dealerships signed on is a bit of an overstatement when certain dealers own dozens of dealerships. Here's an example from IL:
Just looking at that list, to see there are 4000 dealerships signed on is a bit of an overstatement when certain dealers own dozens of dealerships. Here's an example from IL:
| Zeigler Alfa Romeo Fiat of Schaumburg |
| Zeigler BMW of Orland Park |
| Zeigler Buick GMC of Lincolnwood |
| Zeigler Cadillac of Lincolnwood |
| Zeigler Chevrolet of Schaumburg |
| Zeigler Chrysler Dodge Jeep of Downers Grove |
| Zeigler Chrysler Dodge Jeep of Schaumburg |
| Zeigler Ford of North Riverside |
| Zeigler Infiniti of Hoffman Estates |
| Zeigler Infiniti of Orland Park |
| Zeigler Jaguar of Schaumburg |
| Zeigler Land Rover of Schaumburg |
| Zeigler Maserati of Schaumburg |
| Zeigler Mercedes-Benz of Hoffman Estates |
| Zeigler Nissan Gurnee |
| Zeigler Nissan of Orland Park |
| McGrath Acura of Downtown Chicago |
| McGrath Acura of Westmont |
| McGrath Arlington Kia |
| McGrath City Honda |
| McGrath City Hyundai |
| McGrath City Mazda |
| McGrath Elmhurst Toyota |
| McGrath Evanston Subaru |
| McGrath Kia of Highland Park |
| McGrath Lexus Chicago |
| McGrath Lexus Westmont |
| Gerald Ford of North Aurora |
| Gerald Honda of Countryside |
| Gerald Honda of Matteson |
| Gerald Hyundai of North Aurora |
| Gerald Kia of Matteson |
| Gerald Kia of Naperville |
| Gerald Kia of North Aurora |
| Gerald Nissan of Matteson |
| Gerald Nissan of Naperville |
| Gerald Nissan of North Aurora, Inc |
| Gerald Subaru of Naperville |
| Gerald Subaru of North Aurora |
| Gerald Toyota of Matteson |
| Napleton Audi Of Loves Park |
| Napleton Autowerks Loves Park Mercedes-Benz |
| Napleton Autowerks Porsche Rockford |
| Napleton Buick GMC Crystal Lake |
| Napleton Cadillac Libertyville |
| Napleton Cadillac Oak Lawn |
| Napleton Cadillac Rockford |
| Napleton Chevrolet |
| Napleton Downtown Buick GMC |
| Napleton Downtown Chevrolet |
| Napleton Downtown Hyundai |
| Napleton Ford Libertyville |
| Napleton Hyundai Glenview |
| Napleton Jaguar Rockford |
| Napleton Lincoln in Glenview |
| Napleton Lincoln of Blue Island |
| Napleton Maserati of Downers Grove |
| Napleton Mazda of Libertyville |
| Napleton Mazda of Naperville |
| Napleton River Oaks Cadillac |
| Napleton River Oaks Hyundai |
| Napleton River Oaks Kia |
| Napleton River Oaks Lincoln |
| Napleton Subaru Rockford |
| Napleton Westmont Porsche |
| Napleton's Aston Martin of Downers Grove |
| Napleton's Auto Park of Urbana |
| Napleton's Countryside Mazda |
| Napleton's Honda |
| Napleton's Hyundai of Urbana |
| Napleton's Kia of Elmhurst |
| Napleton's Kia of Urbana |
| Napleton's Mazda of Urbana |
| Napleton's Palatine Mazda |
| Napleton's River Oaks Chrysler Jeep Dodge |
| Napleton's River Oaks Honda |
| Napleton's Schaumburg Buick GMC |
| Napleton's Schaumburg Mazda |
| Napleton's Schaumburg Subaru |
| Napleton's Steve Foley Rolls-Royce |
| Napleton's Toyota of Urbana |
| Napleton's Urbana Mitsubishi |
| Napleton's Valley Hyundai |
| Napleton's Volkswagen of Mount Prospect |
| Napleton's Volkswagen of Urbana |
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I mean I can pretty comfortably get 200 miles out of my Bolt at highway speeds, and it only got 259 miles of rated range. Probably could get more depending on the conditions. Tesla does actively over state their ranges to the point where there is legal action being taken over it, but that isn't a problem with EV's but with a specific manufacturer.
The mileages are for combined miles, and are about halfway between the city and highway mileage. In city only driving you can well exceed it if you aren't aggressive. I'd be in massive trouble with my Bolt.
We don't always ideally drive ICE vehicles either, and stop at times we don't need to refuel. This is something that will get better over time as we get more geographical diversity in charging stations. On the interstate with stations at least every 50 miles if not more often, this won't be much of an issue on the interstates.
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A lot of older homes (can't speak to neighborhoods) have 100A service from the curb, and while you can run around and make sure you aren't going to exceed the house service on the occasions you run an air compressor (an active activity) an EV charger is passive - it's often scheduled to run when rates are low, and you aren't running around for 2 hours or 8 hours while it's charging.
And while the HOA may or may not be able to block the installation, adding another 20A circuit in most cases will require a service panel upgrade which will require a permit. And if the neighborhood is service limited, then each home has to stay service limited. And there are neighborhoods in the US where the HOA is responsible for the electrical service, or water supply, or other utilities like phone and cable access, etc. usually because the city isn't interested in expanding to that area, and individual homeowners can't afford it so they form an HOA to pool money to do it. Not uncommon in the southwest and western US.
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I get your complaint but let's not paint people making six figures as filthy fucking rich. $100k is nice money, but it's not "Doctor buying a brand new car for their kid to wrap around a tree" money. There is an income cap and it's way lower than that level of rich. It's $150k for individuals, $300k for joint filers.
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Level 2 chargers are not really necessary. I can plug my Volt into a basic outlet for a few miles an hour, surely real EVs can do the same. If you have 200 miles of range and a ten-mile commute you could charge up once a week at a public charger. Plenty of people buy EVs who can’t charge at home.
I’m sure your subdivision isn’t stopping people from buying extra refrigerators, running the air conditioning, or doing laundry. Or even running a crypto miner or a gaming PC.
Have the actually banned EVs like many HOAs ban dog houses and Christmas decorations after Epiphany?
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I'm certain the "$15,000 markup, minimum" I was quoted when I asked about an EV9 has nothing to do with it. Nothing at all...
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Mostly Ignorant
Ars Centurion
The HOA doesn't care. Puget Sound Energy was the one relaying this info about capacity limits on the current service to the community.
But on standard L1 charging, I'd rather go with a PHEV over a BEV.
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I just searched the Chevy Dealer near me that signed the petition. I waited 8 months to get a Bolt EUV. They have 0 EVs on their lot. 2 in transit that are ~$60k. In transit probably means they are already spoken for when they arrive.
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Napleton's of Urbana makes me laugh, since their lots have been consistently empty since the chip shortage began. When I drive by, go to their car wash or take my car in for service there are typically about a dozen or so total cars between all five makes, and they are mostly ICE. Hell I don't think I've ever seen an IONIQ or PHEV Tucson on the lot.
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thelongdarkteatimeof
Ars Scholae Palatinae
- 2023 Subaru Solterra: $44,995 | Standard Range: 222 miles
- 2023 Nissan Ariya: $43,190 | Standard Range: 216 miles
- 2023 Ford Mustang Mach-E: $42,995 | Standard Range: 247 miles
- 2023 Toyota bZ4x: $42,000 | Standard Range: 252 miles
- 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 6: $41,600 | Standard Range: 240 miles
- 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 5: $41,450 | Standard Range: 220 miles
- 2023 Tesla Model 3: $40,240 | Standard Range: 272 miles
- 2023 Kia Niro EV: $39,550 | Standard Range: 253 miles
- 2023 Volkswagen ID.4: $38,995 | Standard Range: 209 miles
- 2023 Mazda MX-30: $34,110 | Standard Range: 100 miles
- 2023 Hyundai Kona EV: $33,550 | Standard Range: 258 miles
- 2024 MINI Electric Hardtop: $30,900 | Standard Range: 114 miles
- 2023 Nissan Leaf: $28,040 | Standard Range: 149 miles
- 2023 Chevrolet Bolt EUV: $27,800 | Standard Range: 247 miles
- 2023 Chevrolet Bolt: $26,500 | Standard Range: 259 miles
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I understand why dealers are pushing back against EVs. EVs need very little maintenance, the profits of which make dealerships profitable. Of course, it's hard to feel bad for them. The whole dealership model and the law propping them up is antiquated. I can't say I'll be sorry to see them go. I've seldom had a good experience buying or getting service from one.
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I'd do some crippling financial shenaniganery to get into a Lightning if I thought it was a good price. I just checked a local dealership, of 32 units available:
Two of those are $64,995, most are $71k-87k, and one is an eye watering $91,674.
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What does small affordable mean? Here in England the MG4 is £26995 in base trim, the Ora Funky Cat is £34000. Both Chinese - MG is a brand of SAIC and Ora is a brand of Great Wall Motors - and in China itself BYD has the sub-$11000 electric Seagull but there is no sign of bringing that to the UK.
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My local dealership had one sitting on their forecourt for over six months. Even with a new model year price cut they couldn't shift it. It's a crap EV, priced extremely uncompetitively, and that particular vehicle was optioned with all the usual dealer markup shenanigans. The dealer suggested they had moved a few 2023s, but when I suggested he throw me a number that might get me to go kick some tires, he declined, so who knows who is buying those things.
My VW dealer has usually about 8 iD4s sitting on the lot, but again, they're all optioned to hell, and the base trim is the S Pro, so that's pretty damn expensive car. They're hungry to sell, but not hungry enough that they're willing to lose the fat margins they've grown used to since 2021.
I can't wholly blame the dealers; they get shipped what they get shipped, but the paint shield coat, first aid kit, decals, wheel locks, after market security systems, etc they add are on them, and why I'm sitting out another year.
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Uh, EVs work just fine outside cities. In fact, those not living in the city almost certainly have off street parking where they can charge whenever they want. If they have a daily commute, they're literally the absolute ideal EV user.
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I got a more fuel-efficient 2020 Nissan Maxima last year. The next vehicle I plan to get is the all-electric revision of the Maxima that's being worked on, probably a 2028 or 2029 model.
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Can someone just make a EV without all the touchscreen bullshit? First company to make a car that's not as frustrating to use as an HP printer will make bank.
Also, kill off capacitive controls. And shame on your if you remove turning stalks, us roundabout countries hate you for it.
Also, kill off capacitive controls. And shame on your if you remove turning stalks, us roundabout countries hate you for it.
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The data is that EVs need less service but that service is more expensive when it is needed. So it’s really a wash for the dealers.
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I’ve seen one out in the wild with normal plates, so that’s at least one sale made somewhere.
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thelongdarkteatimeof
Ars Scholae Palatinae
My EV has needed zero servicing in the first three years of ownership. They literally top up the windshield washer fluid when I go in for my annual inspection. I expect at the five year mark to need a new 12v aux battery, maybe tires, and maybe shocks, maybe, probably not.
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I might be reading the OPs initial comment wrong, but it doesn't sound like the HOA is against it, they just can't get the community on board with the increase in dues it would take to fund the project.
I'm a little surprised that the IRA or Bipartisan Infrastructure Act doesn't have funding for service upgrades to communities. Maybe if they can get another round going it's something that could be added, and while they are at it maybe they could require and fund L2 charging for multifamily structures.
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No, the opposite. No subsidy. The hundreds of billions in EV subsidies should have gone into transit and other options like e-bikes, that are outselling EVs in the US, cost less than the current subsidy in almost all cases, and reduce emissions 4x faster than EVs do.
Stop trying to make this work for the handful of people in Montana when you can take most of the cars off the road in Chicago - especially for people at the low end of the income ladder, a place with a higher population. Build light rail, expand BRT lines, invest in all other forms of transit. It will do more for the climate and help more people, and it's a durable investment - it'll still be there in 50 years. These subsidized vehicles won't. Subsidizing private infrastructure over public infrastructure is fucking stupid policy. Period.
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thelongdarkteatimeof
Ars Scholae Palatinae
I live in Canada cold. My EV is fine in the winter, I've been driving it for three years and never had a problem and never ran out of charge. I don't even have a L2 charger at home, I plug into a bog standard 15A 120V circuit.
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There are a 8 near me in the $54k to $60k range, some even under MSRP if autotrader is to be believed. All standard range of course.
I just don't need a truck that fucking big. For the love of Christ, make a Maverick Lightning and I'll be tripping over myself to get to the dealer.
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