Car dealers say they can’t sell EVs, tell Biden to slow their rollout

The US already lags far behind China and Europe, but we're going too fast, dealers say.

See full article...

 

[orwelldesign]

Will haul or does haul. Because F-150s hardly ever haul anything but the driver.

I mean, yeah, if you're a trade, you should own one. But there are 3 on my little cul-de-sac, and I'm the carpenter in the neighborhood. I have the garage wood shop. I buy lumber all the time. I own a plug-in Prius and an e-bike, and I get more lumber in a month than those other owners have EVER hauled of any kind in their pickup trucks in their life. They're paying $1000/mo for their pickup, and my lumber delivery costs me $45/mo.

And F-150s have gotten so fucked up that farmers out here are desperately buying up all of the older pickups that are cheap and actually can haul stuff because they aren't putting out $60K for a goddamn pickup truck that is better at being physically imposing over all of the other vehicles than actually pulling a load of hay across a field. They'd rather have a 15 year old Ranger than a modern pickup. Suburban truck buyers are destroying a class of vehicle that actual working people need, and it's terrible.

Oh, that wasn't a defense of suburban f150s, not at all.

Just, an actual 1972 VW Bus and a modern F150 aren't in the same league for hauling and aren't in the same planet for towing.

(And, yeah, pre-2008 trucks sell at a significant premium vs 2009-2014(ish) trucks, in my neck of the woods. Which doesn't have a lot of software developers and DOES have a lot of tradies. People who need trucks want ones that'll still be doing truck stuff 30 years from now, and the electronics in the new ones are going to be hard to keep running long long term.)

 

[johnsonwax]

What's the crumple zone of the OG Bus?

Your fucking kneecaps.

You will never build a car anything like the VW Bus ever again. Not anywhere that has any safety regulations at all.

Also helped you weren't sharing the road with a 7000lb Suburban that was barreling at you at 90MPH.

It will be interesting to see how EU car sales change now that cities are implementing 30kmh speed limits with increasing frequency.

 

[zombi3g]

There's a dip in sales cuz every1 is waiting for the ID Buzz.

I’m waiting for the smaller ID Buzz — but VW has no plans to ship it in North America. Just another example of why cars cost so much in the US — because everyone in the US loves “supersizing” everything. Bigger cars means higher prices.

 

[atu30004]

Kaypro

Nope;
Osborne.
It was such a stupid move on Adam Osborne's part that the term has become a part of the language, as in--
"You dumb fuck; you have osborned the product!
Look it up.

 

[johnsonwax]

I am unaware of any cases where Jevons Paradox was shown to be false. Efficiency gains always result in more resource use. This is why energy generation has to be 100% carbon free long term.

There are cases, like California residential electricity use, but it comes with very direct and fairly aggressive regulation and price incentives. But if you leave it to markets, consumption will always increase and costs will always be externalized.

 

[Skyssx]

I have an EV. I know what charging it is like. At home, it's 3 seconds to plug in and I never think about it again. On the road, when needed, it's 10-15 minutes while I take a piss and grab a snack.

Once again, just so it is absolutely clear, we are not talking about charging at home. We're talking about apartment dwelling people who have absolutely no way to charge at home. That's the entire point of this particular sub-thread. As for "10-15 minutes" I flat out do not believe you. Prove it. I've provided video references. Go generate your own.

 

[EtherGnat]

You can go cross country, which is less than the average person drives on long road trips in a year, with about 3.5 hours of charging stops in a decent vehicle you intentionally ignorant muppet. I don't know how to react when you spoon feed (with sources) the facts to somebody and they're still determined to be so wrong.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=50660a30-695a-48c2-a14a-2e0b03da3d2e

 

[PaulWTAMU]

The Bolt is returning (2025?). The Equinox is starting to ship next year.

I'm keeping an eye on that. With a slightly better range and/or better charging speeds at comparable cost it'd be a really good fit for me. Maybe not up to the roughest stuff I do in my crossover but hey...

 

[JohnDeL]

What a weird site. I don't understand the purpose of that. Is it a meta-joke? Genuinely confused... There's one about "how to say acrylic in French" and it does do that, but... Not much else? I didn't see a search bar, so it's probably not an automatic translation service.

Odd. When I click the link, it takes me to a site that explains how to say 92 in French (quatre-vingt-douze, which translates to "four twenties and twelve").

 

[zombi3g]

Puget Sound Energy was the one relaying this info about capacity limits on the current service to the community.

And it will be the electric companies like this one who will be whining in a few years when homes, businesses, and neighborhoods start disconnecting from the grid. Batteries and solar continue to get cheaper and better. Car dealers won’t be the only ones to come crying to the government when their business model becomes outdated.

 

[Ripcord]

How is this supposed to be the dealer's fault? The government can "mandate" any number of sales they want, American's don't care. The market has spoken, if EV's ever come close to being as good as traditional gas powered cars, people might switch. Until that time, no.

Americans

EVs

 

[ERIFNOMI]

Once again, just so it is absolutely clear, we are not talking about charging at home. We're talking about apartment dwelling people who have absolutely no way to charge at home. That's the entire point of this particular sub-thread. As for "10-15 minutes" I flat out do not believe you. Prove it. I've provided video references. Go generate your own.

I have first hand experience. I own an EV. DCFC does not take "a couple of hours" to recharge your car. It's just fucking doesn't. Plug in while you're grocery shopping and you'll be good to go by the time you get out.

That said, I wouldn't personally buy an EV unless I could charge where I lived or where I worked. But I don't have to lie to make it worse than it is to support that. I just think one of the biggest benefits to an EV today is that by charging it during downtime (work or sleep), you effectively spend no time refueling. Without that, it's less convenient than an ICEV. Not impossible. Not "sit on your thumbs for hours to recharge." Just less convenient.

 

[fellow human]

That just looks like a result, not a cause.

One of my friends was recently trying to buy an EV, and was basically forced to go Tesla after waiting lists and markups at the dealerships of other EV makers.

Maybe dealer tactics are the problem.

It’s definitely a result, you’re right. I was in a similar boat to your friend but truth be told it didn’t take that much mental gymnastics to convince myself. It’s an expensive car, no one’s going to buy one if they really don’t want to.

Thats why I see the chart as cause too - for whatever reason the vast majority are Teslas so of course dealers aren’t selling as many. The issue isn’t demand.

 

[liandri]

Maybe the people on the eco line of thinking are also considering bike and public transit infrastructure more. Or so I hope. Gas or EV car is a false dichotomy, as much as car companies (Tesla included) hope to brainwash us otherwise, and car infrastructure alone is a huge source of costs and pollution (see: Strong Towns)

 

[brainchasm]

Between trade-in value, coupons, and tax "rebate", I ended up paying about $20k for a 2023 Chevy Bolt EUV Premier, and that's considered "not that great of an EV".

Maybe not for thee, oh nebulous "thee", but it tis for me!

 

[zombi3g]

The data is that EVs need less service but that service is more expensive when it is needed. So it’s really a wash for the dealers.

Can you cite some examples of the “more expensive service”?

 

[star-strewn]

If dealers don't want to sell EVs, let's just cut them 100% out of the picture with record investments in Euro-quality transit and infrastructure for walking, cycling, and scooter... ing?

The IRA is already providing funds for Amtrak and safe street initiatives, and Biden is nowhere near a Green New Deal democratic socialist!

 

[traumadog]

I think the problem is that many dealers see the handwriting on the wall with regards to reduced EV service requirements and are opting to slow-walk this transition to the best of their abilities. Dealers make a lot on service, and it makes sense that they'd view a transition to a more reliable breed of vehicle as a business disaster.

In my local experience, dealers are putting less than zero effort into marketing EVs to potential customers.

edit: ninja'd by BOTH johnsonwax and thekaj, I now see. I need to go back to typing school.

And yet there are plenty of things that still require service on an EV.

It's not like tires, shocks , wiper blades and the like are magically lifetime items.

Heck, I'd say that tires and suspension bits would still require service bays, as the average person won't do that stuff on their own.

 

[fellow human]

I have first hand experience. I own an EV. DCFC does not take "a couple of hours" to recharge your car. It's just fucking doesn't. Plug in while you're grocery shopping and you'll be good to go by the time you get out.

That said, I wouldn't personally buy an EV unless I could charge where I lived or where I worked. But I don't have to lie to make it worse than it is to support that. I just think one of the biggest benefits to an EV today is that by charging it during downtime (work or sleep), you effectively spend no time refueling. Without that, it's less convenient than an ICEV. Not impossible. Not "sit on your thumbs for hours to recharge." Just less convenient.

Yeah that’s crazy. I’ve never been able to get through a quick bite at a food court before having to run out to move the car. And that’s when topping up to full at a destination - along the way you only need to charge enough to get to the next stop.

 

[zombi3g]

Also, I want controls that are accessible for my blind wife. She shouldn't have to rely on me to adjust her air conditioning, the radio if she wants to turn the volume down, I just want a car that can work for my family and none of them do So I'm not going to buy an electric car.

This has nothing to do with being an EV. All cars are going this way unfortunately.

 

[gsgrego]

Dealerships to buyers "FK YOU EVS ARE BAD AND WE DONT WANT YOU TO BUY THEM"

Also Dealerships "Yeah man, no one is buying them"


Hmm... seems to be alot of self interest in what dealerships want to sell and why.

 

[iim]

Our next car is going to be an EV for sure; I might even buy a shot-out Leaf. My wife has a 1.1 mile commute, I've got a 6 mile commute, and we're both finally at "Nah, I legit might retire from this job" spots.

But we'll have to keep an ICE around either way, for 4x a year 6-hours-each-way trips to the family. That's doable in a day, with time for a nice visit. Make that into 8 or 10 hours with multiple stops for charging, and that turns into a not-so-much.

I would avoid the Nissan leaf. And here’s a good video about why it’s a bad choice in the EV market and will end up costing you more in the long run.

 

[corprebel]

How about we repeal the laws that prevent direct car sales to consumers, and see how quickly dealerships come around then?

One of the few comments on this thread that I can TOTALLY agree on.

It would definitely be nice to see these laws you just mentioned be 'trash canned' for good! Pro EV or Pro ICE, this would still be a GOOD thing!

 

[Chuckstar]

I am unaware of any cases where Jevons Paradox was shown to be false. Efficiency gains always result in more resource use. This is why energy generation has to be 100% carbon free long term.

Rebound always occurs. Rebound such that the subsequent rate of utilization exceeds the previous rate (which is Jevon's Paradox) most certainly does not always occur. I'll just give you a single example: we don't use more firewood than ever, in the U.S., even though wood burning stoves and furnaces are more efficient than they've ever been.

 

[Boskone]

Aren't most manufacturers selling $60K - $150K electric vehicles? They chased after the whales; GM discontinued the Chevy Bolt, their best selling EV and decided to offer more expensive vehicles. Of course demand plummeted - we call can't afford driving F150 lightnings around.

GM cancelled the Bolt in favor of the Equinox, which from a quick Google search is in the same general price range. Then uncancelled the Bolt.

And I can still see Bolts around, so it's not like they're unavailable; there's a couple dozen within an hour of me. The dealer markup seems to be about $1,500 from base, but as it includes TTnL I dunno what it really ends up being.

(Also apparently the nearest Chevy place has some Silverado EVs; I honestly didn't even know those were out yet.)

 

[traumadog]

I need a truck for my business and I'd like to buy an electric one, but the cheapest electric truck I know if is ~$70k. This is the issue.

I would do the math about how much an EV pickup would cost vs. an ICE one.

I mean, there are plenty of "hidden" costs with ICE vehicles for work that have been blithely ignored forever.

I mean, what's the cost of downtime for an oil change? Or new brakes?

Heck, what's the "on the clock" cost of someone spending half an hour getting gas once a week, vs. always having a full "tank" every morning at home base?

 

[traumadog]

No, that's not true. The way it works is that starting 2024 you can assign your credit to the dealer, who takes it off their tax due which is presumably way over $7500. The dealer then gives you a credit for $7500.

Arcane Federal budgeting rules are to blame. A non-refundable tax credit does not have to be appropriated, so it's harder to get rid of it by omitting it from the budget. A refundable tax credit where it could be a direct payment has to be put in the budget each year.

The credit still requires US sourced materials.

Heck, the easiest way to assign the credit to the dealer is to lease the vehicle. Which is a process many people already manage.

 

[zombi3g]

The ideal analogy here is this motherfucking thing. USB micro-B 3.0. If you have a device that still uses one of these you curse it every single time you have to find the single operational cable you still have for it.
View attachment 68477

That connector was brilliant. You could use this cable for high speed, or a micro USB cable connected to the same port for lower speed.

 

[Faceless Man]

The subsidy needs to be higher. WAY higher. Like "free truck or SUV" level of subsidies we had under Bush.

And all apartments should be required to provide an electric charging space.

The #1 obstacle I have is I only live in apartments because I can't afford a house. And since they aren't required to have a charging space...they don't have one.

Wait until all those landlords work out they can charge more for apartments that do have a charging space, though.

The Body Corporate for my building (strata-title, which is kind of like condominium, I guess) priced running charging to every parking space, but the problem was the mains feed couldn't handle that kind of load. So they compromised short term, with a couple of designated charging spaces taken from the visitor spaces*, with a promise they would look at upgrading the grid at a future point.

* The designated spaces were adjacent to the transformer for the building, so they didn't have to run too much upgraded cabling, or make significant modifications to the electrical grid.

 

[theartificialkid]

You may say it's due to "ignorance", but there's much more nuance to that.

Take my situation. I live in an area where the closest next city is 300km drive, and the closest place I'd call a metropolis is maybe 600km away?

An EV would not be a great choice "at the moment". Once battery tech improves not only for range, but winter driving, I'll consider buying one for sure. Until then, I cannot own an EV as my only vehicle, and I cannot afford 2 vehicles.

Have you done the sums on whether it would be cheaper to use an EV locally and rent a car for any long distance trips you make?

 

[Num Lock]

Here in the Rockies, the charging infrastructure is non-existent the second you leave city limits. I routinely make a 240 mile roundtrip so I could charge before returning, but I worry about how a mountain pass affects range, and if some chucklefuck causes an accident that blocks the highway for three hours, am I screwed? This has happened to me before in an ICE car, and it's not like you can just get off the highway and take side streets - they don't exist. You are going to sit there until the highway is cleared, however many hours it takes. Usually at least a few places along the way will have a gas pump if you run low waiting, but there's nowhere to charge between my A and Z on this trip.

Teslas arrived with COVID here, but it's all transplants and people with second vehicles.

 

[Trueglich]

well price + interest is likely an issue. i paid 25k cash for my plug in hybid in 2019 and i had to fight to get it at sticker. The equivalent car is now 35k sticker

 

[noxylophone]

Such is the attitude of most capitalists when they're faced with the threat of free markets working against their favor.

Engage in shady sales practices, underpay your employees such that they quit, then act like a persecuted victim and whine to the government.

True capitalism has never been tried!

 

[traumadog]

Do Europe and China have small affordable EVs?
If the only options available in the US are overpriced luxury vehicles, it is no wonder the EVs are sitting on the lots. While I consider dealers to be unnecessary middlemen that only add to the price of a vehicle, I have a small sliver of sympathy for them, as they can't sell the types of vehicles the public wants if the manufacturers are not making those types of vehicles.

China definitely has "cheap EV's".

That said, they're ones that won't fly here, for various reasons.

As an example, the Hongguang Mini EV sold 395,451 units in China in 2021. It costs about $4600 US, but it only has 4 seats (and given that it's smaller than a Smart car, not much space for anything else), tops out at 100km/hr, and has maybe 170km of range.

 

[tcatsninfan]

Car manufacturers screwed themselves over by focusing on producing expensive EVs. Instead of making more and more EVs that are $60K or higher, they should have been driving the price down. The absolute cheapest EV is still about $30K, plus most people will want to install a home charger for another $5K or something.

 

[7up1n3]

I recently listened to "The Daily" podcast where they discussed this, and felt it was spot on. Basically, the gov't made the choice focus on the production / infrastructure side of the equation first, instead of demand. Recommend a listen. Very informative.

The Daily: Biden's Electric Car Problem

There are costs associated with any choice. It hit us directly, in that despite REALLY wanting to go EV when we needed a new car earlier this spring, we elected to get a '23 Prius instead. The EV choices I liked didn't qualify for the rebates, and for a myriad of reasons Tesla is off the table. That said, I think the gov't is playing the long game here, and don't disagree with the path chosen. Hopefully things won't get short-circuited by an administration change, if that happens.

 

[Rabid Hungarian]

Just checking, but are y'all trying to complain about how hard it is to buy a car making $100k+/year to someone who makes less than half that and just wants an even playing field so they have a shot at making a contribution to not spewing fossil fuel byproducts into the air?

No, I’m pretty sure he’s simply saying the vast majority of EVs cost too much - for everyone. And those who think people who make $100-200K a year have infinite resources - particularly if they live on either coast - need to think again.

 

[MrFinance]

There it is. Bingo in one post. We had to wait until page 6 but we got "but tire particulates!!!", rare Earths are rare (they're not), the grid can't handle it (it can), a wildly inaccurate break even timeframe pulled out of their ass, crash and fire fearmongering, "batteries need replaced after 7 years" bullshit, and only rich people can afford to have a second car and then it'll never get driven (my ICEV is the car that never gets driven. The EV had more miles in less than a year than the ICEV has racked up in the last 4).

With a side of "electricity comes from coal" in there as well.

Thanks for playing. Yes, tire particulates do matter as one factor amoung many, perhaps that was not the one i should have led with though. Completely agree rare earths are not rare, not quite clear how that is relevant to today's bingo score given Lithium is not a rare earth? But like any commodity it does takes time to scale production of by an order of magnitude. I agree there's a pretty wide range of crossover estimates out there depending on who's paying the researcher and what marginal energy mix you assume. Note I said energy crossover, not CO2 crossover. I'd point you to the Volvo anlysis at c 110k km as probably reasonably neutral. But even if you prefer a researcher arguing much earlier crossover you miss the main point, wihich is that the battery is both the most energy intensive and the most supply constrained piece of the problem. If you are playing bingo in the same universe as me, hopefully you agree we factually do not currently have enough Li in production to switch to 100% EVs overnight? If so, then the single most environmentally friendly thing you can do is put that Li into vehicles where the batteries do the most miles. As 90% of milage is the daily commute sub 100miles, that hybrids are the best place enviromentally to put the Li until the available Li supply exceeds 100% of car production x 100mile batteries. Exceptions exist for delivery drivers or people with 400mile daily commutes. Number 34 - ask for more.

 

[ERIFNOMI]

Here in the Rockies, the charging infrastructure is non-existent the second you leave city limits. I routinely make a 240 mile roundtrip so I could charge before returning, but I worry about how a mountain pass affects range, and if some chucklefuck causes an accident that blocks the highway for three hours, am I screwed? This has happened to me before in an ICE car, and it's not like you can just get off the highway and take side streets - they don't exist. You are going to sit there until the highway is cleared, however many hours it takes. Usually at least a few places along the way will have a gas pump if you run low waiting, but there's nowhere to charge between my A and Z on this trip.

Teslas arrived with COVID here, but it's all transplants and people with second vehicles.

As long as you're coming back down the mountain, there shouldn't be much of a range hit. You can regen down the mountain and it takes nothing to keep the motors going.

Likewise, sitting in traffic isn't an issue. You're not burning fuel ideling an engine. All you're using energy for while stuck in a standstill is running the HVAC. I'd rather sit in stuck traffic in an EV than an ICEV.

240 miles at 70-80mph means you'll want a car with more rated "combined" mileage though. I'd be looking north of 300.

 

[sporkinum]

Home chargers don't need to cost much, at least in my case it didn't. $200 for electrician to install 220v outlet on back of my house, and $150 for a level 2 charger. I have been using that for the last 7 years. However, that is not going to be the case for most people. Also, in my case I didn't need to do that as I have a PHEV that really didn't need level 2 charging.

I won't be in the market for maybe 5 or more years, as I will be retiring then, and the house will be paid off. Hopefully there will be plenty of alternatives that don't cost much by then.