Winamp's woes: how the greatest MP3 player undid itself
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Yeah and with good quality (ie. not bloated crapware) coding that should be possible to achieve with an install file of 50Mb max.
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Ah Winamp, was everywhere back in 2004-ish, haven't really heard much of you since especially the last couple years.
And to the guy talking about iTunes, I remember a few years back when I had to use it I hated it so much looked for alternatives and there was something called "bear" something and it was like incomparably better then itunes (synced with ipod and everything, very customizable) and it was the work of a couple people not even being paid vs a ginormous multinational corporation . Pathetic and embarrassing, that's kinda what he's talking about.
I avoid Apple products like the plague now though so haven't used it in years but from the sounds of it, it's just gotten worse. Using itunes was like being a slave, an electronic denizen with no rights, why someone puts themselves in that position beats me, I think because most just plain don't know better and what's actually out there.
Edit: Reminds me, supposed to be user friendly right? Well let's just say telling my little brother and my mom itunes they just deleted their whole music libraries on their ipods becuase of a "sync" issue after my investigation was not nice, and literally blew my mind that something so stupid could happen, and by design.
And to the guy talking about iTunes, I remember a few years back when I had to use it I hated it so much looked for alternatives and there was something called "bear" something and it was like incomparably better then itunes (synced with ipod and everything, very customizable) and it was the work of a couple people not even being paid vs a ginormous multinational corporation . Pathetic and embarrassing, that's kinda what he's talking about.
I avoid Apple products like the plague now though so haven't used it in years but from the sounds of it, it's just gotten worse. Using itunes was like being a slave, an electronic denizen with no rights, why someone puts themselves in that position beats me, I think because most just plain don't know better and what's actually out there.
Edit: Reminds me, supposed to be user friendly right? Well let's just say telling my little brother and my mom itunes they just deleted their whole music libraries on their ipods becuase of a "sync" issue after my investigation was not nice, and literally blew my mind that something so stupid could happen, and by design.
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Thanks for the enjoyable article - it's a pleasure to remember the time when Winamp (and each successive version of it in the early days) was a really exciting product.
I'm a bit dubious about any return to prominence unless they can think of something particularly interesting. Advertising and browser toolbars? Ech! It'll keep bringing them some revenue for a time but the product has some serious competition now.
I'm a bit dubious about any return to prominence unless they can think of something particularly interesting. Advertising and browser toolbars? Ech! It'll keep bringing them some revenue for a time but the product has some serious competition now.
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undervillain":2a6w64j2 said:
A couple of those are in Winamp: it can manage video and syncs with iDevices and others (Android [wirelessly] or any generic MP3 player). Mind you, the download is actually 16 MB installed (12MB installer), so I'm not sure how the Mac version is so much smaller. I remember back in the day downloading new versions of iTunes at around 100MB over a 1Mbps connection, back before Apple added cloud support, iPhones, iPads, etc. It's never been tightly coded.
Anyway, I used to use Winamp, but nowadays I use Clementine. I need a cross-platform solution (Windows and Linux), so Winamp simply doesn't cut it. It was a great program though. I'd love to see them put out a Linux version...
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What a sad story. I used to love Winamp back in the day. But as soon as I moved to OS X (around 2003), I started using iTunes and pleaded with Winamp to release an OS X version. iTunes wasnt as bad back then, but I just loved the way Winamp worked. Now it all makes sense. I can see why those editors/writers at Engadget left to start TheVerge. AOL kills its acquisitions like Yahoo with Flickr, Del.icio.us, etc, and HP with Palm/WebOS.
But damn you, AOL! You killed what could have been the iTunes of today's world. Enjoy what's left of "the Service".
But damn you, AOL! You killed what could have been the iTunes of today's world. Enjoy what's left of "the Service".
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undervillain":2otnv288 said:
True, but back in Winamp's heyday, iTunes was also a simpler program that didn't have to do all those things. For whatever reason, it also had to install QuickTime too, even before movie support came to iPod. That was back in dialup era, when a 40MB download sucked. What also made Winamp great was the speed that it opened and the light footprint. No one had GBs of RAM back then, and storage wasn't exactly cheap. HDD capacity was the biggest limiter to your music collection, and you don't want big music players taking up music space.
As a broke college student, Winamp was a critical application on my cheapo rig. Seemed like that dumb "Try AOL" icon showed up after installing just about anything back then. To be fair, I did like AOL IM for keeping up with gaming buddies. Ah, back in the days when it was Ben Folds Five.
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Uh, yea. When iTunes came out, it didn't do all that shit either.undervillain":2hmlubut said:
If WinAMP development hadn't (been) stalled, they would have kept adding features, management, signed distribution deals, etc.
I paid for WinAMP back in the day, but WinAMP 3 was too friggin' huge. Been kinda jumping programs since.
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This was a great look back, I was astonished (probably like all Americans) to see the Winamp name in the Android store. Bit of an ironic name, isn't it? I ended up with doubletwist on my phone, and holy cow it made a difference. Android feels like a real ipod/iphone competitor now. Funny how little things like lock screen player controls can make such a big difference.
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I agree with others here about iTunes. It's a bulky, ugly thing that in fact sits as an obfuscation layer between you and your stored music files. I prefer to go directly to the folder holding my music, and select the songs directly, or by right clicking the album folder and selecting Play with WinAmp. I avoid iTunes like the plague.
I have had WinAmp as my primary music player program on all the Windows machines in this household since at least 2001. I am listening to streaming music on it right this second, in fact.
I DO hope that WinAmp can split off from AOL and stage a kind of come back, return to the flexibility they used to have in choosing their destiny, even if they DID miss the greatest opportunity imaginable, and not by their own fault.
I have had WinAmp as my primary music player program on all the Windows machines in this household since at least 2001. I am listening to streaming music on it right this second, in fact.
I DO hope that WinAmp can split off from AOL and stage a kind of come back, return to the flexibility they used to have in choosing their destiny, even if they DID miss the greatest opportunity imaginable, and not by their own fault.
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Overlooking AOL's contributions (good and bad) The fact that it's still in use in light of the existence of VLC is a miracle.
One thing winamp does better than VLC is the metadata tag lookup, IMO but otherwise VLC is king and will not be displaced anytime soon.
(It goes without saying that itunes isn't even worth mentioning)
One thing winamp does better than VLC is the metadata tag lookup, IMO but otherwise VLC is king and will not be displaced anytime soon.
(It goes without saying that itunes isn't even worth mentioning)
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solomonrex":qob9lp35 said:
FYI, Winamp for Android actually has lock screen controls as well. It's a good player really. It's just that it's fairly generic. It works really well with Winamp on the desktop, but besides that, I see no reason to use it over one of the many alternatives. I just use the default ICS player, as I like the Google Music integration.
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nomadofnorad":321k0zme said:
+1
Ver.5 though.... Still even have ver.2.65 on this computer too (it is only associated with Midi files - remember them?). Version 2.65 was a 2.06 Mb install.
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I had no idea Winamp was so unpopular in the US these days. I've tried foobar and a few other players, but winamp still reigns supreme, imo. Especially combined with ClassicPro with this skin.
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The problem is these production companies would prefer their product be a vehicle for purchasing more content and view ads rather than simply be a platform for delivering media. This mentality is ruining all forms of media delivery systems. If Apple could figure out a way to slip a commercial or two into your personal playlist on your iPod, they would.
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YetAnotherAnonymousAppellation
Ars Praefectus
I started using WinAmp when I first found it bundled with Netscape umpty-million years ago, and I still use it. There are probably better players, but I know how to use WinAmp and it does what I want, so why should I switch?
It is sad that AOL managed to destroy it's user base, but as someone who was a user of AOL (the only option at the time), I fully understand how they killed it. Fortunately, I've never had the displeasure of using a "service" as bad as AOL since.
It is sad that AOL managed to destroy it's user base, but as someone who was a user of AOL (the only option at the time), I fully understand how they killed it. Fortunately, I've never had the displeasure of using a "service" as bad as AOL since.
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Demonicume
Ars Centurion
Shoutcast was the shit. If AOL hadn't interfered, I'd have never had a that tryst with Pandora. I'd never have downloaded Songbird. Even VLC would have only been used for weird file types. But it started to suck. It was bulky and icky to use. I tried very hard to stay with WA, i really did. But she forced my hand. I even tried iTunes. AOL should clean house based on this fact alone.
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My most-missed feature of Winamp was that you could put anything and everything in the same playlist. Want to listen to an 1 1/2 albums, a couple podcasts, and then a movie? No problem.
I still haven't found a good modern player with that total "fire and forget" interface.
I still haven't found a good modern player with that total "fire and forget" interface.
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Oh, I remember vividly when WinAmp was acquired by AOL and immediately went down the toilet only to clog it with bundled crapware, took lots of flushing to get rid of that... I tried to put up with it for a while but eventually had no choice but to dump WinAmp altogether.
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Interesting read. I started out with the default, WMP7. Decided it sucked and went to RealONE player, which was quite a step backwards. Searched around the net and found Quintessential Media Player, which I used for years but it got real buggy for me. Tried WinAmp at some point and came back to QMP; tried it again after QMP started to break but still didn't like it. There was a dalliance with iTunes at some point also but good lord is that some crapware. I could rant for a while but I won't.
Enter foobar2000. The ONLY player that can handle my large collection, allows me to customize sufficiently, and has a fantastic backend. For anyone who wants a do it all digital audio player and manager, check it out.
/proselytizing
But yeah, that was an interesting read, to see what happens when you sell out (which I'm sure I would have also) and then to see what that means.
Enter foobar2000. The ONLY player that can handle my large collection, allows me to customize sufficiently, and has a fantastic backend. For anyone who wants a do it all digital audio player and manager, check it out.
/proselytizing
But yeah, that was an interesting read, to see what happens when you sell out (which I'm sure I would have also) and then to see what that means.
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I still use winamp at work, and a winamp clone at home. Its simple, and it does what I want, and its not itunes (which I hate), though I'm only using 2.95. I tried some of the other players, but even VLC doesn't compare to the simplicity of winamp.
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thank you, this was a very enjoyable read. I always wondered what happened to good ol' Wiamp. It took me back to the late nineties. Before even Napster came into the picture. Back then you could only get mp3s via newsgroups, XDCC, and FTP, and WinAMP was THE player of choice. I still have my huge skin collection stashed away somewhere. Boy, things are so different today...
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Hey, great article. I used to use Winamp and although I wasn't wondering what had happened to it, it is nice to read and reminisce, looking back things could have been very different. Not surprising that AOL failed to make use of a great acquisition.
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I'm using Winamp 2.91 and will not upgrade. I forget what it was about 2.95 (the last 2.x IIRC) that I don't like.
It's worth noting that the last few versions are simply unusable. You go through the setup (after it's installed) and it never launches Winamp, it just closes. Running it again resets the startup. There's no media player there, just a dumb questionairre. Even if I accept the free trials, it doesn't let me use the music player. I've searched online and there are no valid answers. I just assumed AOL abandoned it in some weird way, shrugged, and went back to 2.x where it actually worked.
In my opinion, there's nothing better for music. It plays music, plays it well, and stays out of your way. I never found a single skin I liked. The original is fine.
It's worth noting that the last few versions are simply unusable. You go through the setup (after it's installed) and it never launches Winamp, it just closes. Running it again resets the startup. There's no media player there, just a dumb questionairre. Even if I accept the free trials, it doesn't let me use the music player. I've searched online and there are no valid answers. I just assumed AOL abandoned it in some weird way, shrugged, and went back to 2.x where it actually worked.
In my opinion, there's nothing better for music. It plays music, plays it well, and stays out of your way. I never found a single skin I liked. The original is fine.
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undervillain":2x288u9y said:
Bloat is bloat. If someone does use movie and TV show libraries, ebooks, ringtones, and applications, provide an online store of each of these formats, syncronize with iPods, iPhones, iPads, and iTVs, provide network music streaming, syncronize contacts, calendars, email, and notes.
Then its all pointless and just adds to a bloated app. This is why jack of all trades apps are crap.
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I used to love Winamp. Winamp and Winzip were always two programs I downloaded immediately upon a fresh Windows install (with dial-up!).
I switched to a Mac when OS X came out, and wanted Winamp so bad! Although unlike many people here, I find iTunes perfectly fine. I have never had problems with it, although I use MOG for my music now.
Interesting article though, enjoyed it.
I switched to a Mac when OS X came out, and wanted Winamp so bad! Although unlike many people here, I find iTunes perfectly fine. I have never had problems with it, although I use MOG for my music now.
Interesting article though, enjoyed it.
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It seems as if only the true tech-savvy people still use Winamp/foobar these days. For everyone else, it's iTunes, spotify, or something else that makes me wish we could return to the 90's
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Ach, Winamp is a sad story. They were so /good/ in the 2.x days, before the bloat and before AOL couldn't decide what do to with it. I still have a few Winamp skins ("TubeAmp" was my favorite) that Audacious can use, but on Windows I have switched entirely to Foobar2000.
I was one of those people who switched back to 2.xx from 5.x, running 2.95 for a *long* time before I got tired of something-or-other not working right and going to Foobar. I still have some of the Winamp hotkey commands imprinted in my brain; it's mildly annoying that FB doesn't have a mod to switch its hotkeys over to Winamp's.
Interesting parallel to ICQ: they're another (former) AOL acquisition that's basically died in the USA but popular in foreign parts.
I was one of those people who switched back to 2.xx from 5.x, running 2.95 for a *long* time before I got tired of something-or-other not working right and going to Foobar. I still have some of the Winamp hotkey commands imprinted in my brain; it's mildly annoying that FB doesn't have a mod to switch its hotkeys over to Winamp's.
Interesting parallel to ICQ: they're another (former) AOL acquisition that's basically died in the USA but popular in foreign parts.
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Man, I'm really disappointed to see a bunch of Arsians talking about iTunes and Winamp, in the context of the late-90s/early-00s era, and see no mention of SoundJam. For those of you who were too young (or don't remember), iTunes is not an Apple original product. The original software was the (quite good) SoundJam MP, and product by the very long established classic Mac dev Casady & Greene (who also did Conflict Catcher for example). SoundJam MP was quite similar to Winamp in many respects. As well as playlists and the compressed focus it was fully skinnable and had some great visualizers for the time, back when we cared about such things. It was a fast and effective commercial program, I know I still have it (along with an image of my old Classic system from just before I made the jump to the OS X 10.0) somewhere, wish I could remember my favorite skin.Boskone":2o2hslfw said:
Apple bought it in 2000, and used it to jump start iTunes for better or worse. At one point you could poke through the resource fork or code of iTunes and find references to SoundJam, though I'm pretty sure those have all long since been excised. Was kind of a bummer to see it go, particularly since iTunes wasn't the radical leap forward it might have been. From a technical perspective, that history is part of the reason iTunes always had a certain degree of technical difficulties. It's derived from a program written for Classic, and I don't know if Apple has ever done a full rewrite. The QuickTime stuff was required on Windows because of the baggage, QT included a full Carbon compatibility environment. Apple has since shoved more and more stuff into iTunes of course, leading to the situation today.
SoundJam wasn't quite as full featured as Winamp but it was close, and a solid program back in the day. The whole discussion is kind of a blast to the past though, crazy times.
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Good read. Still using Winamp here after all these years. Have tried tons of other players, and never cared for them. Always came back to Winamp.
I don't want a "manager" and I don't want anything else in the way - Winamp still wins on this front, IMO...
VLC, for audio? No way. Random video files, sure.
Foobar - tried it, it's ok, but I wasn't sold.
iTunes/Quicktime, for playing anything? No way. Sure, it's neat to purchase something (I tried it the very day that it was finally available for Windows, and have bought a few things since), but it's too much of a mess for playback of local media. Too large. No need for all that code, or all of those services on a computer, just to listen to a song or fire up a short playlist.
--- I don't need its flat list of endless media, some of which it won't play (at least, not without kludging some workaround together - hello, FLAC is a real format...)---
Spotify, for general playback of local files? Tries too hard to look like iTunes, except more grey/black. (again) -- - I don't need its flat list of endless media, some of which it won't play (hello, FLAC is a real format...)---
Windows Media Player? Forget it. I don't want it crawling my drive, and I don't want it trying to impress me with tasteless design. Again, it's POSSIBLE to play FLAC, but why isn't this included in its default codecs by now?
(IMO) No other program beats Winamp for simplicity and ease of use, for local (audio) files.
Find file, double click, Winamp is playing the file - it "just works."
Sure, I also subscribe to Rhapsody, but I don't use it for local media. Would never consider iTunes or Spotify for handling my local files either. What a waste of resources and source of frustration. All this "media management" has ruined the simplicity of really managing one's actual media, via the actual file system.
Maybe I'm just old school, but I'd rather rip with something like EAC or FreeAC (formerly BonkENC) and know what the hell I'm getting, and then play with Winamp, than have some default 128kbps rip, in some folder somewhere, with who knows what metadata, etc.
Sad that AOL screwed up so badly with this. I still think it's a great music player program, and will continue to use it for my main machine, until I see a very good reason to stick with something else.
I don't want a "manager" and I don't want anything else in the way - Winamp still wins on this front, IMO...
VLC, for audio? No way. Random video files, sure.
Foobar - tried it, it's ok, but I wasn't sold.
iTunes/Quicktime, for playing anything? No way. Sure, it's neat to purchase something (I tried it the very day that it was finally available for Windows, and have bought a few things since), but it's too much of a mess for playback of local media. Too large. No need for all that code, or all of those services on a computer, just to listen to a song or fire up a short playlist.
--- I don't need its flat list of endless media, some of which it won't play (at least, not without kludging some workaround together - hello, FLAC is a real format...)---
Spotify, for general playback of local files? Tries too hard to look like iTunes, except more grey/black. (again) -- - I don't need its flat list of endless media, some of which it won't play (hello, FLAC is a real format...)---
Windows Media Player? Forget it. I don't want it crawling my drive, and I don't want it trying to impress me with tasteless design. Again, it's POSSIBLE to play FLAC, but why isn't this included in its default codecs by now?
(IMO) No other program beats Winamp for simplicity and ease of use, for local (audio) files.
Find file, double click, Winamp is playing the file - it "just works."
Sure, I also subscribe to Rhapsody, but I don't use it for local media. Would never consider iTunes or Spotify for handling my local files either. What a waste of resources and source of frustration. All this "media management" has ruined the simplicity of really managing one's actual media, via the actual file system.
Maybe I'm just old school, but I'd rather rip with something like EAC or FreeAC (formerly BonkENC) and know what the hell I'm getting, and then play with Winamp, than have some default 128kbps rip, in some folder somewhere, with who knows what metadata, etc.
Sad that AOL screwed up so badly with this. I still think it's a great music player program, and will continue to use it for my main machine, until I see a very good reason to stick with something else.
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The article makes an interesting read but completely overlooks the fact that MusicMatch Jukebox was actually pretty complete compared to Winamp, until at least 1998. It had replaceable skins, and also drove album artwork earlier than Winamp.
I can recall using V3 in I'd guess 1995. Of course, like Winamp, MusicMatch got bought and killed by that over Internet behemoth of the 1990's, Yahoo.
I can recall using V3 in I'd guess 1995. Of course, like Winamp, MusicMatch got bought and killed by that over Internet behemoth of the 1990's, Yahoo.
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If everyone would just buy their music with Amazon.com already we could stop all the nonsense at once. DRM free, cheap, and NO GODDAMN ITUNES.
I would SO much rather give my money to Amazon and help fund space exploration than itunes and fund a new spaceship style HQ. Wouldn't you?
Now, there is an iPhone in my pocket....but hey, all the MP3s are from Amazon.
I would SO much rather give my money to Amazon and help fund space exploration than itunes and fund a new spaceship style HQ. Wouldn't you?
Now, there is an iPhone in my pocket....but hey, all the MP3s are from Amazon.
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I'm still using WinAmp.
Of course, I'm using the classic skin and I'm only using it as a player, not for media management at all. All the extra crap is disabled.
Ironically, it's the one player I've found that just stays out of my way, works exactly as I want it to with a very minimal but functional UI (three tiny bars!), and doesn't force all that other crap on me even if it wants me to use it. Of course, that's all been there forever, and none of the new stuff is useful at all, but at least it's still there.
And don't tell me Foobar2000. I've tried several times, can't get used to the open source UI.
Of course, I'm using the classic skin and I'm only using it as a player, not for media management at all. All the extra crap is disabled.
Ironically, it's the one player I've found that just stays out of my way, works exactly as I want it to with a very minimal but functional UI (three tiny bars!), and doesn't force all that other crap on me even if it wants me to use it. Of course, that's all been there forever, and none of the new stuff is useful at all, but at least it's still there.
And don't tell me Foobar2000. I've tried several times, can't get used to the open source UI.
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FuriousLopez":1k8xk2v4 said:If everyone would just buy their music with Amazon.com already we could stop all the nonsense at once. DRM free, cheap, and NO GODDAMN ITUNES.
I would SO much rather give my money to Amazon and help fund space exploration than itunes and fund a new spaceship style HQ. Wouldn't you?
Now, there is an iPhone in my pocket....but hey, all the MP3s are from Amazon.
Why an iPhone if you don't want to support Apple an iTunes? I'm stuck with an iPhone for work, but we don't use iTunes at all at home.
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I like iTunes. It organized my music by metadata.
But I think the real nature of the comparison is that WinAMP could have been the digital music distribution platform for the world if it had the ambition and will to move in that direction. There was the potential for it to be just as big as iTunes or Amazon is now with respect to buying and selling music.
But I think the real nature of the comparison is that WinAMP could have been the digital music distribution platform for the world if it had the ambition and will to move in that direction. There was the potential for it to be just as big as iTunes or Amazon is now with respect to buying and selling music.
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