Now that the SB is back to subscriber only, and due to another discussion on the topic, I'm curious as to the opinions of the current make up of Soap Box posters on the topic of religion. <BR><BR>Please answer the following questions to the best of your ability. If you have a disagreement with or do not understand the framing of a question, please choose the option that you think best represents your view and respond below with your objection or question.<BR><BR>Thanks for participating, and if you voted before the edit, please vote again as the poll was reset to add the final question.<BR><BR>-SS
Soap Box Religion Poll
- Thread starter SkySlash
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If anyone voted prior to this post, please vote again, as I added the final question and that reset the poll.<BR><BR>-SS
Robet Heinlein wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>I believe there are many people who need some kind of formal training in what is right or wrong, because they never give right and wrong a second thought beyond said training. I think religion has its place, and should be kept there.<BR><BR>That said, as a former catholic schoolboy (complete with the homosexual pedophile monk for a Sixth Grade teacher), I have studied quite a few religions through "comparative study" that was fostered in the catholic high school that I attended. I think that religion was the direct and indirect cause of much pain throughout history, and believe that the Enlightenment would have happened centuries sooner if not for the Roman Catholic Church's stranglehold on society in general, and literacy in particular, through the Middle Ages.<BR><BR>So, I guess what I am saying is that it is a net wash, teaching people too dumb or too lazy how to behave by penciling things out to them, while on the other hand perpetrating some of the worst atrocities known to man in the names of their deities. A necessary evil, as long as rational men stand up to negate the abuses that are possible.
I kind of think that the question about what religion is most detrimental is a bit irrelevant. When religions do harm, there is almost always some secular force at play as well. You can remove religion from most of the current conflicts with Islam, and the conflicts would remain. I really can't think of any harm done in the name of religion that didn't have some other motivation as well. I've dealt with some of the worst "islamic extremists" and every one of them would be criminally insane with or without the religious angle -- no amount of religiosity makes baking a child and then forcing his parents to eat him seem like a good or sane idea.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lunatech:<BR>Robet Heinlein wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>I believe there are many people who need some kind of formal training in what is right or wrong, because they never give right and wrong a second thought beyond said training. I think religion has its place, and should be kept there.<BR><BR>That said, as a former catholic schoolboy (complete with the homosexual pedophile monk for a Sixth Grade teacher), I have studied quite a few religions through "comparative study" that was fostered in the catholic high school that I attended. I think that religion was the direct and indirect cause of much pain throughout history, and believe that the Enlightenment would have happened centuries sooner if not for the Roman Catholic Church's stranglehold on society in general, and literacy in particular, through the Middle Ages.<BR><BR>So, I guess what I am saying is that it is a net wash, teaching people too dumb or too lazy how to behave by penciling things out to them, while on the other hand perpetrating some of the worst atrocities known to man in the names of their deities. A necessary evil, as long as rational men stand up to negate the abuses that are possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I can overall agree with the "necessary evil" angle.<BR><BR>The thing is that most people have a point where reason and logic break down, or are just to slow to achieve a beneficial result. I find religion most useful when decisions are made in milliseconds, and you can't possibly know everything you need before it's time to decide. Sometimes it's helpful to just have a simple image of what type of person you want to be.
I would point out that the Islam/Christanity quests have two pretty different meanings in how you define Islam. Christianity and Islam are REALLY big tents to the point that they because meaningless qualifiers. Do the Muslims I disagrees with represent the whole? Do the Christians I disagree with represent the whole?<BR><BR>There have millions of Islamic Americans who contribute to society. Many of them probably in ways more beneficial than christians. On the other hand there are Musims in other countries who I think are a detriment not to society but to security and life.<BR><BR>Further, I think you are missing the "Do you believe/follow any particular religion" question. Also "Do you identify with any religion at all?" is a really strange question. I was raised catholic and went to a Jesuit school. I identify with Christianity in general but my Jesuit education deleloped my critical t hinking skills and I became an agnostic/athiest. That said, I still identify with christianity because I beleive thier morals are generally have value once I ignore the ones I disagree with.
"Siege Mentality"<br><br>-- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif --<br><br>The only time I care about Religion is when it gets into Politics. I realize that they're one in the same thing for the most part, but religion helps individuals decided what to do on a persoanl level, politics deals with decisions on a public level, and I don't think one is very well suited to guide the other in any material way.<br><br>-T
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by inktomi:<BR>I can overall agree with the "necessary evil" angle.<BR><BR>The thing is that most people have a point where reason and logic break down, or are just to slow to achieve a beneficial result. I find religion most useful when decisions are made in milliseconds, and you can't possibly know everything you need before it's time to decide. Sometimes it's helpful to just have a simple image of what type of person you want to be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>And it is this thinking that firmly puts you (in my book) in a category where you do not need religion. But there are people out there, including many in my own family, for whom religion is a guide that is invaluable to them. Not because they are bad people, or ignorant (well, not all of the, anyway), but because they are not bright enough or intellectually too lazy to figure out for themselves a "simple image of what type of person" they want to be.<BR><BR>I figured it out myself many moons ago, after I got out of the army. I've formulated the guidelines that I myself live by, and because of this, I have not seen a need to stray from them. I have been tempted to stray, but have not needed to.
I think the world will be better without it, but I don't really give a damn so long as it stays out of public policy and the government doesn't go around endorsing religion (and yes, "In God We Trust" is a religious statement no matter how many whackjobs on the supreme court say it isn't).<BR><BR>My disdain for religion would be mostly eliminated if they spent more time doing that "love thy neighbor" shit they're so fond of talking about and a whole lot less drumming up hatred and fear and pushing an agenda of willful, blind stupidity.
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lunatech:<br><br>And it is this thinking that firmly puts you (in my book) in a category where you do not need religion. But there are people out there, including many in my own family, for whom religion is a guide that is invaluable to them. Not because they are bad people, or ignorant (well, not all of the, anyway), but because they are not bright enough or intellectually too lazy to figure out for themselves a "simple image of what type of person" they want to be.<br><br>I figured it out myself many moons ago, after I got out of the army. I've formulated the guidelines that I myself live by, and because of this, I have not seen a need to stray from them. I have been tempted to stray, but have not needed to. </div>
</blockquote>But how does one deal with unforeseeable situations?<br><br>When religion has really mattered for me it was because something was happening which was completely beyond my ability to reason through. That's when "WWJD" or strong knowledge of scriptures helps, it gives me a way to work through a problem that I can't yet understand.<br><br>Then again, I get shot at more than most people, so my idea of what is or is not beyond my control is probably a little off -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif --<br><br>I can see how religion would not be necessary for some, but I don't think I'm personally there. Basically religion helps me work through shock, and I still need to make decisions while in shock more often than I would like. I imagine that any type of faith could fill that gap, not just religion.
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lunatech:<br><br>And it is this thinking that firmly puts you (in my book) in a category where you do not need religion. But there are people out there, including many in my own family, for whom religion is a guide that is invaluable to them. Not because they are bad people, or ignorant (well, not all of the, anyway), but because they are not bright enough or intellectually too lazy to figure out for themselves a "simple image of what type of person" they want to be.<br><br>I figured it out myself many moons ago, after I got out of the army. I've formulated the guidelines that I myself live by, and because of this, I have not seen a need to stray from them. I have been tempted to stray, but have not needed to. </div>
</blockquote>But how does one deal with unforeseeable situations?<br><br>When religion has really mattered for me it was because something was happening which was completely beyond my ability to reason through. That's when "WWJD" or strong knowledge of scriptures helps, it gives me a way to work through a problem that I can't yet understand.<br><br>Then again, I get shot at more than most people, so my idea of what is or is not beyond my control is probably a little off -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif --<br><br>I can see how religion would not be necessary for some, but I don't think I'm personally there. Basically religion helps me work through shock, and I still need to make decisions while in shock more often than I would like. I imagine that any type of faith could fill that gap, not just religion.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lunatech:<BR>Not because they are bad people, or ignorant (well, not all of the, anyway), but because they are not bright enough or intellectually too lazy to figure out for themselves a "simple image of what type of person" they want to be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Then we should make it a priority to figure out something better for them. If an offered decision framework is important for society then we should work to develop one, free from religion, and then work to help students in school debate and think about it so they are well on their way to forming their own by the time they leave. It should be a core part of the public education system. Falling back on outdated, frequently broken mechanisms like religion is lazy and dangerous. We've updated many of our other societal systems as we increase our knowledge, no reason we shouldn't recognize the framework parts of religion that might be useful and create a version 2.0 that drops all the worthless supernatural bits, outdated parts, and so on.
Since I'm in the extreme minority on this question, I'll explain my answer.<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Do you believe that all forms of government should be free from any religious influence? </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No.<BR><BR>I'm fine with any group of people continuing with their traditions, including religious influence on government, even when I don't agree with the religion in question. I don't have a problem with governments evolving, but if a government is of and by the people it represents, it's okay if it is influenced by religion.<BR><BR>In the context of the US, I don't feel that government and politics should mix, but that is not our tradition. Religion may influence government through the exercise of free speech, but that's about it.
Before I enter the discussion, anyone care to wager which ways I voted? -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif --
I'm pretty impressed that the penultimate question is unanimously "No" so far. lol "Siege Mentality" lol.<BR><BR>That being said, I'm pretty appalled that people think that Islam has been a net negative to society as a whole given the fostering of Science during the Dark Ages. IDK, maybe we're too focused on modern day? But you really can't be, if you're going to talk religion in the general sense. <BR><BR>-Alpha
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JasonF:<BR>I think the world will be better without it, but I don't really give a damn so long as it stays out of public policy and the government doesn't go around endorsing religion (and yes, "In God We Trust" is a religious statement no matter how many whackjobs on the supreme court say it isn't). </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It is what it is, and it is where it belongs.<BR><BR>*finishes pissing in the wind*<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My disdain for religion would be mostly eliminated if they spent more time doing that "love thy neighbor" shit they're so fond of talking about and a whole lot less drumming up hatred and fear and pushing an agenda of willful, blind stupidity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You REALLY need to spend a week or two with a handful of us. I am amazed that you don't see ANYONE doing good works. Is it possible that you are looking in all the wrong places so that you don't find any?!?
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It is what it is, and it is where it belongs. </div>
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It is what it is, and it is where it belongs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It belongs in the circular file along with all the other religious nonsense the government engages in, in obvious violation of the first amendment.<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You REALLY need to spend a week or two with a handful of us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Frankly, having seen your postings here for years, I have no reason to believe you're anything but a perfect example of the kind of Christian who relishes in pushing hatred and fear along with a heavy dose of willful ignorance. Not all Christians are like that (e.g. the more liberal Episcopalians - the SO's dad just retired from the priesthood), but far, far too many are just like you.<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am amazed that you don't see ANYONE doing good works. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I didn't say that. Why do you insist on lying about what other people say? Aren't you violating one of those commandments you're so fond of beating others over the head with?
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MightySpoon:<br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It is what it is, and it is where it belongs. </div>
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<br><br>I think that's code for "nyah nyah, it's there and you know that you probably won't be able to change it".<br><br>-Alpha
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MightySpoon:<br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It is what it is, and it is where it belongs. </div>
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<br><br>I think that's code for "nyah nyah, it's there and you know that you probably won't be able to change it".<br><br>-Alpha
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My disdain for religion would be mostly eliminated if they spent more time doing that "love thy neighbor" shit they're so fond of talking about and a whole lot less drumming up hatred and fear and pushing an agenda of willful, blind stupidity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>This is the thing that I find more interesting living in the south. From everything I have studied about Christianity I find Moderate Socialism (ie Social Safety Net) to be far more "Christian" than Capitalism. In the health care thread SkySlash brought up a point about incentives to work and selfishness. What amazes me is that this sort of attitude primarily, at least where I live, from so called Christians. They are actually willing to allow people to suffer and die for market principles.<BR><BR>The Gospels, to the extent that they might actually described a person who actually existed, seemed to describe your basic 60's Anti Capitalist, Anti-War, Social Justice hippy.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leavitron:<BR>You REALLY need to spend a week or two with a handful of us. I am amazed that you don't see ANYONE doing good works. Is it possible that you are looking in all the wrong places so that you don't find any?!? </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Yes, I'm sure spending time among a compassionate Christian like yourself would certainly turn him around.<BR><BR>http://episteme.arstechnica.co...8601041#613008601041
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leavitron:<br>Before I enter the discussion, anyone care to wager which ways I voted? -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif -- </div>
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<br><br>I seem to remember saying that you have had a change of perspective recently, is that correct?
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leavitron:<br>Before I enter the discussion, anyone care to wager which ways I voted? -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif -- </div>
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<br><br>I seem to remember saying that you have had a change of perspective recently, is that correct?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Yes, I'm sure spending time among a compassionate Christian like yourself would certainly turn him around. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Oh the horror! A Christian advocating keeping a terrorist locked up in jail!
my votes:<BR><BR>- no, I don't identify with any religion. I was raised catholic, and went to a catholic school. But for me, the whole "god" concept seemed utterly disconnected from the real world.<BR><BR>- I think religion is a detriment to society. It asks people to set aside rational thought in favor of putting blind faith in fairy tales. And quite frankly, the whole "god" thing is rooted in nothing more than the desire to control people.<BR><BR>- I'm neutral. don't shove it in my face, and I won't react.<BR><BR>- neither Islam or Christianity are, IMO, more harmful or beneficial. history has shown that people will do both good or bad things based on what they think their invisible sky fairy wants.<BR><BR>- I would hope that as we understand more about ourselves and everything else, our need for a "god of the gaps" would disappear.<BR><BR>- I don't think it should be made illegal, everyone should be free to believe what they want <B>so long as they don't use the force of law to make me submit to their beliefs (you hear me, Republican party?</B><BR><BR>- Government should be entirely free from the taint of religion.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SirEverlast:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Yes, I'm sure spending time among a compassionate Christian like yourself would certainly turn him around. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Oh the horror! A Christian advocating keeping a terrorist locked up in jail! </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>So much for that "turn the other cheek" rhetroic, am i rite?<BR><BR>-Alpha
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You REALLY need to spend a week or two with a handful of us. I am amazed that you don't see ANYONE doing good works. Is it possible that you are looking in all the wrong places so that you don't find any?!? </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>are you doing good works because you want to help people, or are you doing so to get in "god's good grace?" If it's the latter, then I submit that you are not a good person, and you're only doing said "good works" for selfish purposes.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So much for that "turn the other cheek" rhetroic, am i rite? </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>No, he's probably just a fan of separation of church and state. I'm not sure you've heard of it, but it seems to be pretty popular around the box.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Starbuck79:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My disdain for religion would be mostly eliminated if they spent more time doing that "love thy neighbor" shit they're so fond of talking about and a whole lot less drumming up hatred and fear and pushing an agenda of willful, blind stupidity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>This is the thing that I find more interesting living in the south. From everything I have studied about Christianity I find Moderate Socialism (ie Social Safety Net) to be far more "Christian" than Capitalism. In the health care thread SkySlash brought up a point about incentives to work and selfishness. What amazes me is that this sort of attitude primarily, at least where I live, from so called Christians. They are actually willing to allow people to suffer and die for market principles.<BR><BR>The Gospels, to the extent that they might actually described a person who actually existed, seemed to describe your basic 60's Anti Capitalist, Anti-War, Social Justice hippy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I used to frequent a website called "Dirty Hippy's Liberal Christian Home Journal" (gone for 10 years or so now, but some archives are available in eBook form here and the reader is available here). The basic premise is that Jesus' teachings would overall be considered liberal today.<BR><BR>But there is a big difference between personal beliefs and government philosophy. I build houses for people that couldn't afford them, my church builds houses for people that couldn't afford them, but I don't feel that the government should build houses for people. I'd prefer that the government have the smallest involvement possible in people's lives.<BR><BR>It's not that I want people to be homeless, I just feel that personal and societal charity is more important than government charity. The basic problem is that the government really sucks at doing charity work. When we get a dozen people to volunteer to build a house (including the new homeowner), and get local businesses to donate tens of thousands of dollars worth of goods and services, that is more cost effective than government even has the potential to be.<BR><BR>Another concern is that my religion is not everyone's religion. I'm fine with building houses for people, but not everyone wants to be a part of my outreach. I'd rather the government just stay out of my way as much as possible so I can follow my beliefs and everyone else can follow their own beliefs.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The basic problem is that the government really sucks at doing charity work. When we get a dozen people to volunteer to build a house (including the new homeowner), and get local businesses to donate tens of thousands of dollars worth of goods and services, that is more cost effective than government even has the potential to be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>And you get a single house built. It's a start but not really a solution to WHY that homeowner was homeless. Habitat is great. I've build a few houses with them but it really is a drop in the bucket.<BR><BR>The problem with this argument is that it's simply not effective on a nation wide scale. There isn't enough christian charity to build enough houses.<BR><BR>For example, Churches are very good at provide immediate needs like food kitchens etc but not so much at long term assistance on a large scale. What happens when things get tight and donations go down? There is less food for people.<BR><BR>What happens if there isn't large enough churches to do outreach in certain areas?<BR><BR>That's leaving too much to chance in my mind.<BR><BR>If these sorts of Christians were interested local health care with actual results you would think they would form their own Insurance Company. There's enough mega Churches around to pull donations. Then have the poor in their area sign up and donate what they can.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SirEverlast:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So much for that "turn the other cheek" rhetroic, am i rite? </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>No, he's probably just a fan of separation of church and state. I'm not sure you've heard of it, but it seems to be pretty popular around the box. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Yes. Yep, that's why he advocated leaving a dying man in his cell to rot.<BR><BR>Because he believes in the separation of church and state.<BR><BR>Seriously, are you even trying anymore?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Starbuck79:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The basic problem is that the government really sucks at doing charity work. When we get a dozen people to volunteer to build a house (including the new homeowner), and get local businesses to donate tens of thousands of dollars worth of goods and services, that is more cost effective than government even has the potential to be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>And you get a single house built. It's a start but not really a solution to WHY that homeowner was homeless. Habitat is great. I've build a few houses with them but it really is a drop in the bucket. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It's more than just 1. My little 70 person church helps on around 10 builds a year, and that's just in one county in one state. On the grand scale the drops add up.<BR><BR>We also use the church as a homeless shelter over the winter months (since were small we team with a dozen other small churches to cover the county's needs). But one little church isn't the whole effort, and religious charities aren't the whole effort.<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">For example, Churches are very good at provide immediate needs like food kitchens etc but not so much at long term assistance on a large scale. What happens when things get tight and donations go down? There is less food for people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So far we haven't been seeing the budget crunch hit outreach. We have seen more people in need, and different types of people in the homeless shelter (I don't really know how else to describe it; we usually see a lot of the same people from year to year and they usually have common backgrounds, but last year we had a lot of different people).<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What happens if there isn't large enough churches to do outreach in certain areas?<BR><BR>That's leaving too much to chance in my mind. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It doesn't need to be churches, but communities ought to take care of themselves, and do better job of taking care of themselves.<BR><BR>I personally have an obligation to my neighbors. The government doesn't. And it would be wrong for me to use the government to force my values on others.<BR><BR>I don't think that there is a realistic end to poverty, homelessness, etc, so using the government to try and "solve" those problems seems a bit silly.<BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If these sorts of Christians were interested local health care with actual results you would think they would form their own Insurance Company. There's enough mega Churches around to pull donations. Then have the poor in their area sign up and donate what they can. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I wasn't talking about health care. Frankly I think that's barely on the radar as far as churches go. Homelessness, poverty, hunger, and domestic abuse are much higher-priority concerns.
DO you church built 70 houses this year. That really is good. But it's a small but important drop in the bucket. We have Millions and Millions of people<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but communities ought to take care of themselves, and do better job of taking care of themselves. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Exactly they don't have never have. If Christian Communities and Charity was ever enough to fight the real need than we would have never had government assistance.<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I wasn't talking about health care. Frankly I think that's barely on the radar as far as churches go. Homelessness, poverty, hunger, and domestic abuse are much higher-priority concerns. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR><BR>That's pretty much exactly my point. Thanks. Churches are very good for immediate needs like foods. But for long term assistance like welfare, SCHIP, Medicaid, etc etc centralized management works better than local charity. Remember these programs are mostly managed by the states with funding by the Fed.
I will say it here, and I've said it before. To me there is a God. Not having a god doesn't make sense to me. I love my god, but I really dislike his fan clubs.
I'm a dirty unbeliever (lol, siege mentality) and generally take a live-and-let-live approach with the religious. You don't tell me that God loves me/hates me/has a plan/says I can't buy whiskey on sundays/wants me to go to church/cares which consenting humans put their naughty bits in other consenting humans, or quote scripture to support your opinions, and I won't mention "invisible sky-wizards" or the FSM. The only time I apply a strict religious litmus test in politics is in school board elections; being pro-Creationism/Intelligent design/"teaching the controversy" = no vote for you.<br><br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Do you think religion should be made illegal? 0 (0%) </div>
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<br>I see the troll question hasn't attracted a single vote so far... -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif --
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Do you think religion should be made illegal? 0 (0%) </div>
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<br>I see the troll question hasn't attracted a single vote so far... -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif --
Wiccan here. Really though, my religion is just an apt name for a collection of beliefs I have had my whole life despite the attempts my late mother made to make me Catholic. If organized religion were banned I think it would be a great benefit to society. Those who truly believe would still practice, but at home or in a place with another more primary purpose. This would make religion about faith again rather than money and control.
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WDReinhart:<br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Do you think religion should be made illegal? 0 (0%) </div>
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<br>I see the troll question hasn't attracted a single vote so far... -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif -- </div>
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<br><br>It was absolutely not a troll question. I genuinely wonder if anyone here thinks religion should be illegal. I admit, I'm surprised we don't have a single person who thinks we should. I further admit, I was hoping to ask whatever minority voted that, why.<br><br>Seeing as how nobody does, I'm kinda disappointed on not having anyone to ask about it, but it was a legitimate question driven by genuine curiosity.<br><br>For anyone interested, I voted:<br>Yes<br>Both<br>Acceptance<br>Christianity (I voted this way because Islam seems too isolationist to me)<br>Neither<br>No<br>No<br>Yes<br><br>-SS
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WDReinhart:<br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Do you think religion should be made illegal? 0 (0%) </div>
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<br>I see the troll question hasn't attracted a single vote so far... -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif -- </div>
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<br><br>It was absolutely not a troll question. I genuinely wonder if anyone here thinks religion should be illegal. I admit, I'm surprised we don't have a single person who thinks we should. I further admit, I was hoping to ask whatever minority voted that, why.<br><br>Seeing as how nobody does, I'm kinda disappointed on not having anyone to ask about it, but it was a legitimate question driven by genuine curiosity.<br><br>For anyone interested, I voted:<br>Yes<br>Both<br>Acceptance<br>Christianity (I voted this way because Islam seems too isolationist to me)<br>Neither<br>No<br>No<br>Yes<br><br>-SS
There is no God, but I understand that a lot of people can't handle that idea, so whatever. Religion, on a whole, has outlived it's usefulness, but is such a part of our culture that it won't be disappearing for a long time because so many people know it so well. Kind of like matches, or twist-off toothpaste tube caps.<BR><BR>Islam is more dangerous, in it's current form, than any other kind of religion. I'm sure you could make the case that the tenets of Islam are no more dangerous than Christianity, but it's implementation is far more prone to negative outcomes than Christianity.
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SkySlash:<br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WDReinhart:<br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div>
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Do you think religion should be made illegal? 0 (0%) </div>
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<br>I see the troll question hasn't attracted a single vote so far... -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif -- </div>
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<br><br>It was absolutely not a troll question. I genuinely wonder if anyone here thinks religion should be illegal. I admit, I'm surprised we don't have a single person who thinks we should. I further admit, I was hoping to ask whatever minority voted that, why.<br><br>-SS </div>
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<br><br>My emotional reaction is to say I think it should illegal, but I know that you can't legislate beliefs, unless you're willing to kill those that hold the ones you don't agree with. In other words, you can't unring the bell.<br><br>If religon has taught us nothing, it should hav taught us that even the most irrational, illogical, unprovable ideas can still be around thousands of years after they should have died off. So, make peace with the morons who continue to hold-fast, and take them as seriously as their numbers dictate.
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SkySlash:<br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
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<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WDReinhart:<br><blockquote class="ip-ubbcode-quote">
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div>
<div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Do you think religion should be made illegal? 0 (0%) </div>
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<br>I see the troll question hasn't attracted a single vote so far... -- View image here: http://episteme.meincmagazine.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif -- </div>
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<br><br>It was absolutely not a troll question. I genuinely wonder if anyone here thinks religion should be illegal. I admit, I'm surprised we don't have a single person who thinks we should. I further admit, I was hoping to ask whatever minority voted that, why.<br><br>-SS </div>
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<br><br>My emotional reaction is to say I think it should illegal, but I know that you can't legislate beliefs, unless you're willing to kill those that hold the ones you don't agree with. In other words, you can't unring the bell.<br><br>If religon has taught us nothing, it should hav taught us that even the most irrational, illogical, unprovable ideas can still be around thousands of years after they should have died off. So, make peace with the morons who continue to hold-fast, and take them as seriously as their numbers dictate.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SkySlash:<BR><BR>I genuinely wonder if anyone here thinks religion should be illegal. I admit, I'm surprised we don't have a single person who thinks we should. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Certain religious practices should be (and are) illegal. I actually wouldn't mind if we tightened up the law a touch there, actually, particularly regarding those that refuse medical care for their children because they are praying for a cure, that kind of thing.
My most visceral response is that those poll graphs piss me off as I can't associate the right bar with its legend.
Metasyntactic
Ars Legatus Legionis
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by inktomi:<BR>But there is a big difference between personal beliefs and government philosophy. I build houses for people that couldn't afford them, my church builds houses for people that couldn't afford them, but I don't feel that the government should build houses for people. I'd prefer that the government have the smallest involvement possible in people's lives. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't see what this has to do with religion. I volunteer all the time to help out with social causes i believe in. But religion simply doesn't come into play. Are you saying you would be unable to do the things you are doing now if it were in some way not affiliated with your church?
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