Decrypted: I think we’ve got Westworld all figured out now

In this episode of our TV podcast, we talk to game designer Jane McGonigal about the show's gameplay.

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[JonathanSmith]

So. Lee. Where's that soylent bar?

 

[sapphir8]

Ugh, I don't want to listen, I want to read. So much easier for me.

 

[Annalee]

JonathanSmith[/url]":16sjp8zc]So. Lee. Where's that soylent bar?

I like to eat them moist.

 

[DoomHamster]

Damn...I might just have to listen to make time to listen to this one.

Edit: Nope. Sorry, no offence but I just couldn't do it. I started listening while programming (who just sits and listens to something?) and made it 10 minutes in before I realized I had stopped paying attention at some unknown point and had no idea what was being discussed.

Maybe I'll give it another go on the drive home but that is normally my All Things Considered time soooo...

 

[Maldoror]

I don't get the comparisons with Lost (possibly because I watched only half an episode of Lost). Can someone clue me in?

 

[DoomHamster]

Maldoror[/url]":252ye4mv]I don't get the comparisons with Lost (possibly because I watched only half an episode of Lost). Can someone clue me in?

Clue you in on Lost...where to start...

Go watch Lost.

 

[SmokeTest]

ElectricBlue[/url]":3sb993fw]This week on techno Lost...

Aside from being a popular mystery TV show, what exactly is the similarity to Lost?

 

[JonathanSmith]

Maldoror[/url]":3rnjci70]I don't get the comparisons with Lost (possibly because I watched only half an episode of Lost). Can someone clue me in?

Lost kept throwing crazy stuff into the mix, and like Westworld the fans went crazy trying to make sense of it. And the theories kept getting broken by new info (like westworld) and the story got crazier and it was super exciting...


Until it all fell down, and became clear that the writers didn't actually have a plot. It was just throwing stuff up at random. We're all hoping Westworld actually has a plot, and signs are good that it does.

 

[deus01]

SmokeTest[/url]":ipzdgogg]

ElectricBlue[/url]":ipzdgogg]This week on techno Lost...

Aside from being a popular mystery TV show, what exactly is the similarity to Lost?

The man in black is Azor Ahai... wait, I'm getting my shows with crazy theories mixed up.

 

[Digital Dud]

Westworld isn't nearly as convoluted as Lost, it's been very straight forward so far. My guess is season 2 is when it starts going off the rails.

 

[Azethoth666]

Ok so double triple timeline is definitively gone. Lee's gut is saved!

Of course that leaves us with game time flashbacks as the hosts engage in increasingly desperate attempts to escape the horror loop of the park.

Poor Maeve has been breaking out a lot before. Is this time different or just another loop on Fords auto piano score of horror and violent delights?

He built Bernard to help program hosts. That is not gonna end well!

My guess is Ford wins season one.

 

[ElectricBlue]

JonathanSmith[/url]":1a8lrfpa]

Maldoror[/url]":1a8lrfpa]I don't get the comparisons with Lost (possibly because I watched only half an episode of Lost). Can someone clue me in?

Lost kept throwing crazy stuff into the mix, and like Westworld the fans went crazy trying to make sense of it. And the theories kept getting broken by new info (like westworld) and the story got crazier and it was super exciting...


Until it all fell down, and became clear that the writers didn't actually have a plot. It was just throwing stuff up at random. We're all hoping Westworld actually has a plot, and signs are good that it does.

With 2 episodes left the chances they are going to wrap this thing up in any satisfying way seem rather low. I want to be wrong though.

 

[Ponk]

Maldoror[/url]":1ui0uhcu]I don't get the comparisons with Lost (possibly because I watched only half an episode of Lost). Can someone clue me in?

I think some people are seeing Westworld's exploration of consciousness as analogous to Lost's early pretence at exploring the nature of belief (which then proved to be rather shallow and ultimately expendable in the name of stringing out a money-maker). But I think that's clearly wrong, as of season one, because they're consistently hitting philosophical marks that fit into the same framework, which is to say they're definitely aiming at something.

 

[SgtCupCake]

ElectricBlue[/url]":1etrsvn7]

JonathanSmith[/url]":1etrsvn7]

Maldoror[/url]":1etrsvn7]I don't get the comparisons with Lost (possibly because I watched only half an episode of Lost). Can someone clue me in?

Lost kept throwing crazy stuff into the mix, and like Westworld the fans went crazy trying to make sense of it. And the theories kept getting broken by new info (like westworld) and the story got crazier and it was super exciting...


Until it all fell down, and became clear that the writers didn't actually have a plot. It was just throwing stuff up at random. We're all hoping Westworld actually has a plot, and signs are good that it does.

With 2 episodes left the chances they are going to wrap this thing up in any satisfying way seem rather low. I want to be wrong though.

Is it just going to be one season?

 

[JonathanSmith]

ElectricBlue[/url]":3lcy88mt]

With 2 episodes left the chances they are going to wrap this thing up in any satisfying way seem rather low. I want to be wrong though.

Well, clearly not everything is going to get cleared up. They've built this for multiple seasons, and I'm 100% okay with that. It's much better than 'We must clear up everything this season, and then next season we'll start with an even BIGGER threat!" But they could clear up what the maze is, and whether Dolores has found it/the centre. We could also finish Maeve's storyline, since it looks like things are going downhill fast for her.

 

[LimpBagel]

SgtCupCake[/url]":1fs40fw4]

ElectricBlue[/url]":1fs40fw4]

JonathanSmith[/url]":1fs40fw4]

Maldoror[/url]":1fs40fw4]I don't get the comparisons with Lost (possibly because I watched only half an episode of Lost). Can someone clue me in?

Lost kept throwing crazy stuff into the mix, and like Westworld the fans went crazy trying to make sense of it. And the theories kept getting broken by new info (like westworld) and the story got crazier and it was super exciting...


Until it all fell down, and became clear that the writers didn't actually have a plot. It was just throwing stuff up at random. We're all hoping Westworld actually has a plot, and signs are good that it does.

With 2 episodes left the chances they are going to wrap this thing up in any satisfying way seem rather low. I want to be wrong though.

Is it just going to be one season?

The writers have said they are planning for 3.

 

[Ponk]

ElectricBlue[/url]":37shlgkn]

With 2 episodes left the chances they are going to wrap this thing up in any satisfying way seem rather low. I want to be wrong though.

So your idea of good fiction is for any conflict or plot to be tied up neatly as soon as possible? Have you ever considered Dora The Explorer?

 

[Ponk]

JonathanSmith[/url]":2tv1s210] We could also finish Maeve's storyline, since it looks like things are going downhill fast for her.

Unless she gets out, and we can have an entire Ex Machina spin-off. There'd literally be a whole world of ideas to explorer there!

 

[JonathanSmith]

Ponk[/url]":fz5wx7y7]

JonathanSmith[/url]":fz5wx7y7] We could also finish Maeve's storyline, since it looks like things are going downhill fast for her.

Unless she gets out, and we can have an entire Ex Machina spin-off. There'd literally be a whole world of ideas to explorer there!

I'd watch that spin off. Maeve in the big city!

She'll be the mayor in a month. President in a year, tops.

I'm still listening to the podcast, but I have to point something out.
They're talking about building stuff, but have you ever seen a Minecraft server? The public servers have huge griefing problems. Ford even said that he thought that positive and negative storylines would be about even, and humanity disappointed him. People are kinda shitty to each other, and that's a fact.

 

[Chmilz]

Have they ever claimed Westworld is a game? I always thought it was a theme park.

 

[nehinks]

Was that his number 2 (Elsie I think?) that Bernard was having flashbacks to strangling? Was hard to tell even when I went back and rewatched it - too fast and face was distorted. I really hope she still shows back up - quite liked her.

So after this episode I'm left with the impression that Ford still can't straight up replace humans with bots - seems like Bernard was a straight up creation. And he didn't replace the head of QA, just faked the cause of death. I'd be surprised if he couldn't manage a physical duplicate, but I'm guessing he can't really extract the mind/memories of a person well enough to be convincing. Have to manually code to try to be similar (like his boyhood likeness and family presumably).

 

[deus01]

nehinks[/url]":525tf50r]Was that his number 2 (Elsie I think?) that Bernard was having flashbacks to strangling? Was hard to tell even when I went back and rewatched it - too fast and face was distorted. I really hope she still shows back up - quite liked her.

So after this episode I'm left with the impression that Ford still can't straight up replace humans with bots - seems like Bernard was a straight up creation. And he didn't replace the head of QA, just faked the cause of death. I'd be surprised if he couldn't manage a physical duplicate, but I'm guessing he can't really extract the mind/memories of a person well enough to be convincing. Have to manually code to try to be similar (like his boyhood likeness and family presumably).

It was Elsie... though as other TV shows have taught us you probably shouldn't count them out until you see their bodies hit the ground.

 

[pokrface]

Looking like I might be eating some soylent bars—maybe. I'll refine my "I'll eat a soylent bar if multiple timelines is true" with some parameters:

1) If we've been viewing two or more narratives disconnected in time (i.e., every time we see William it's 30 years in the past from Ford et al, and every time we see Ford et al it's 30 years in the future from Teddy), then I'll eat a soylent bar;

2) Multiple timelines != a few things that are clearly flashforwards and repeated incidents, like Dolores remembering she gets gutshot at the farm and then flashing to the next loop forward and using that knowledge to jump on a horse and run away—that's clearly not what we're talking about;

3) If William == MiB I'll eat a soylent bar AND drink a soylent shake, because that'll still make me sad.

The folks who are getting really into the theories (both pro and con) on the subreddit seem like they're getting super-emotional about it. I don't think I'm that emotional about it, but I do think the more convoluted the timeline twists get, the weaker the story gets. It's so interesting with the elements we do see—mucking it up with traditional tired tropey twists lessens a great, clear story.

Fear not—I've got my soylent ready just in case.

 

[chiablo]

They are time frames, not timelines that are in Dolores's head.

Timeline implies some kind of time travel where branching can occur. Time frames are just different points along the same timeline.

 

[DoomHamster]

PORKFACE[/url]":78f0cze2]Looking like I might be eating some soylent bars—maybe. I'll refine my "I'll eat a soylent bar if multiple timelines is true" with some parameters:

1) If we've been viewing two or more narratives disconnected in time (i.e., every time we see William it's 30 years in the past from Ford et al, and every time we see Ford et al it's 30 years in the future from Teddy), then I'll eat a soylent bar;

2) Multiple timelines != a few things that are clearly flashforwards and repeated incidents, like Dolores remembering she gets gutshot at the farm and then flashing to the next loop forward and using that knowledge to jump on a horse and run away—that's clearly not what we're talking about;

3) If William == MiB I'll eat a soylent bar AND drink a soylent shake, because that'll still make me sad.

The folks who are getting really into the theories (both pro and con) on the subreddit seem like they're getting super-emotional about it. I don't think I'm that emotional about it, but I do think the more convoluted the timeline twists get, the weaker the story gets. It's so interesting with the elements we do see—mucking it up with traditional tired tropey twists lessens a great, clear story.

Fear not—I've got my soylent ready just in case.

You sound like you need a rest after lifting all those heavy goalposts!

 

[pokrface]

DoomHamster[/url]":24ef7rvz]You sound like you need a rest after lifting all those heavy goalposts!

I don't think I'm moving goalposts!! Not on purpose. "Two timelines" has always meant "we're seeing at least two narratives separated by 30 or so years with the scenes blended together, but not fully explained." I don't think anyone has ever used the phrase to talk about some of the quick intercutting that's clearly supposed to be different points in a loop—like Dolores seeing her New Dad flip into Old Dad, or Rebus merge into MIB.

edit - the really good news is that PeterB has been watching and he really hates the multi-timeline theory, so if he stops by the thread this should get really fun really fast!

 

[deus01]

PORKFACE[/url]":zvri2x84]Looking like I might be eating some soylent bars—maybe. I'll refine my "I'll eat a soylent bar if multiple timelines is true" with some parameters:

1) If we've been viewing two or more narratives disconnected in time (i.e., every time we see William it's 30 years in the past from Ford et al, and every time we see Ford et al it's 30 years in the future from Teddy), then I'll eat a soylent bar;

2) Multiple timelines != a few things that are clearly flashforwards and repeated incidents, like Dolores remembering she gets gutshot at the farm and then flashing to the next loop forward and using that knowledge to jump on a horse and run away—that's clearly not what we're talking about;

3) If William == MiB I'll eat a soylent bar AND drink a soylent shake, because that'll still make me sad.

The folks who are getting really into the theories (both pro and con) on the subreddit seem like they're getting super-emotional about it. I don't think I'm that emotional about it, but I do think the more convoluted the timeline twists get, the weaker the story gets. It's so interesting with the elements we do see—mucking it up with traditional tired tropey twists lessens a great, clear story.

Fear not—I've got my soylent ready just in case.

At least with the multiple timeline theory I feel like it's been set up in a clever way and if you re-watch the episodes with that in mind it easy to see how it could be true.

I think everyone would agree that multiple timelines means that the parts showing William and Man in Black are in significantly different times, i.e. a span of ~30 years and not just a few days or something. There are clearly additionally flashes where Dolores remembers going out of her basic loop at various other times like when she's shot in the gut or floating in the river but those obviously aren't part of the greater multiple timeline theory.

 

[TheMerricat]

SmokeTest[/url]":159i4zar]

ElectricBlue[/url]":159i4zar]This week on techno Lost...

Aside from being a popular mystery TV show, what exactly is the similarity to Lost?

J.J. Abrams.

 

[JonathanSmith]

PORKFACE[/url]":2bjnaj9j]Looking like I might be eating some soylent bars—maybe. I'll refine my "I'll eat a soylent bar if multiple timelines is true" with some parameters

Not fair to refine your goals after new showings Lee.

Either way, I really do disagree with you about the timelines. I think they're really cleverly integrated into the story, and emphasize how the park is looping away, kinda stagnating.

 

[MiggityMikeB]

JonathanSmith[/url]":1xts9cd1]

Maldoror[/url]":1xts9cd1]I don't get the comparisons with Lost (possibly because I watched only half an episode of Lost). Can someone clue me in?

[It] became clear that the writers didn't actually have a plot. It was just throwing stuff up at random. We're all hoping Westworld actually has a plot, and signs are good that it does.

I'll bet the bank on Jonathan Nolan all day everyday over Lindelof.

 

[Ronin007]

DoomHamster[/url]":2q62q3ff]

Maldoror[/url]":2q62q3ff]I don't get the comparisons with Lost (possibly because I watched only half an episode of Lost). Can someone clue me in?

Clue you in on Lost...where to start...

Go watch Lost.

I would not wish that upon my worst enemy. It was such a waste of time.

 

[DoomHamster]

PORKFACE[/url]":3esb3wko]

DoomHamster[/url]":3esb3wko]You sound like you need a rest after lifting all those heavy goalposts!

I don't think I'm moving goalposts!! Not on purpose. "Two timelines" has always meant "we're seeing at least two narratives separated by 30 or so years with the scenes blended together, but not fully explained." I don't think anyone has ever used the phrase to talk about some of the quick intercutting that's clearly supposed to be different points in a loop—like Dolores seeing her New Dad flip into Old Dad, or Rebus merge into MIB.

edit - the really good news is that PeterB has been watching and he really hates the multi-timeline theory, so if he stops by the thread this should get really fun really fast!

Wow...impressive that you still had enough energy for that dodge!


I'm just giving you a hard time, Lee. Mostly because we all want you to experience additional GI distress for some odd reason.

 

[omf]

Anyone who seriously believes Lost and Westworld have much in common doesn't remember Lost that well. That show continuously spun up new potential story lines and mysterious without ever delivering on any of them. Westworld has already delivered more in these 8 episodes than Lost did in its entire run. (No, I'm not bitter...)

 

[TheMerricat]

Chmilz[/url]":29zoow49]Have they ever claimed Westworld is a game? I always thought it was a theme park.

With narratives the guests participate in, it might be a park but it sounds like the world's biggest LARP.

 

[deus01]

JonathanSmith[/url]":39dka5qa]

PORKFACE[/url]":39dka5qa]Looking like I might be eating some soylent bars—maybe. I'll refine my "I'll eat a soylent bar if multiple timelines is true" with some parameters

Not fair to refine your goals after new showings Lee.

Either way, I really do disagree with you about the timelines. I think they're really cleverly integrated into the story, and emphasize how the park is looping away, kinda stagnating.

I don't think he's refining the goals, just clarifying what the multiple timeline theory postulated.

 

[JonathanSmith]

omf[/url]":13lvrzv3]Anyone who seriously believes Lost and Westworld have much in common doesn't remember Lost that well. That show continuously spun up new potential story lines and mysterious without ever delivering on any of them. Westworld has already delivered more in these 8 episodes than Lost did in its entire run. (No, I'm not bitter...)

Absolutely, but the comparisons are natural. Lost is the last show I can remember that generated so much excitement and theorizing about what was really going on.

 

[Lord Teshima]

SgtCupCake[/url]":24uixvc0]

Is it just going to be one season?

Season 2 was just greenlit a few days ago. Unfortunately, I also read that we may have to wait until 2018 for it.

 

[hechacker1]

My problem with the show is the constant replay of the same scene (wasting on screen time) of constant agony. Please writers, just move on with the story already.

I was falling asleep Sunday night listening to constant screaming and crying of the same scene(s) I've seen dozens of times now.