Decrypted: I think we’ve got Westworld all figured out now

In this episode of our TV podcast, we talk to game designer Jane McGonigal about the show's gameplay.

Read the whole story

 

[Azethoth666]

Ok so double triple timeline is definitively gone. Lee's gut is saved!

Of course that leaves us with game time flashbacks as the hosts engage in increasingly desperate attempts to escape the horror loop of the park.

Poor Maeve has been breaking out a lot before. Is this time different or just another loop on Fords auto piano score of horror and violent delights?

He built Bernard to help program hosts. That is not gonna end well!

My guess is Ford wins season one.

 

[Azethoth666]

рokrfасе[/url]":cd6m8og1]Looking like I might be eating some soylent bars—maybe. I'll refine my "I'll eat a soylent bar if multiple timelines is true" with some parameters:

1) If we've been viewing two or more narratives disconnected in time (i.e., every time we see William it's 30 years in the past from Ford et al, and every time we see Ford et al it's 30 years in the future from Teddy), then I'll eat a soylent bar;

2) Multiple timelines != a few things that are clearly flashforwards and repeated incidents, like Dolores remembering she gets gutshot at the farm and then flashing to the next loop forward and using that knowledge to jump on a horse and run away—that's clearly not what we're talking about;

3) If William == MiB I'll eat a soylent bar AND drink a soylent shake, because that'll still make me sad.

The folks who are getting really into the theories (both pro and con) on the subreddit seem like they're getting super-emotional about it. I don't think I'm that emotional about it, but I do think the more convoluted the timeline twists get, the weaker the story gets. It's so interesting with the elements we do see—mucking it up with traditional tired tropey twists lessens a great, clear story.

Fear not—I've got my soylent ready just in case.

But you are fine. At the river massacre she clearly loses track of William while remembering and then later he is back and she tells him about it. This places William in the current reveries timeline along with MiB and the whole crew.

Only flashbacks and false memories are in the past.

Also I am liking Theodor as Arnold now.

 

[Azethoth666]

TheMerricat[/url]":36ava5p5]

Chmilz[/url]":36ava5p5]Have they ever claimed Westworld is a game? I always thought it was a theme park.

With narratives the guests participate in, it might be a park but it sounds like the world's biggest LARP.

If I shot somebody with a paintball gun am I playing a game? Does westworld have super awesome paintball guns?

Two yeses gets you to westworld is a game.

One or more noes and you need to check the lawn. Might have kids playing games on it.

I think it is fair to say it is way beyond a LARP as well.

 

[Azethoth666]

taraba[/url]":a2ujqv49]

pökrface[/url]":a2ujqv49]

McDeath[/url]":a2ujqv49]I'm not quite convinced on there being multiple timelines yet. Have I missed some sort of smoking gun evidence that points this out?

No—just more maddeningly circumstantial dialog and vague clues that LOOK conclusive but on examination turn out to be almost purposefully crafted to be able to be read both ways.

Not "almost" when we're eight episodes in. They ARE purposefully crafted to read both ways. Now just spend some minutes wondering why that is. Either they're truly going for multiple timeframes or they see that they can fake doing multiple timeframes and hope people bite on to that theory.

I think that is wrong. What is the motivating event for what we see? The roll out of the reveries. This is the start of remembering past events. Now instead of endless loops, variation has been introduced. Before this there was only the occasional mistake to wipe or Arnold or the corp sabotaging things to add variation to a hosts loops.

How would one represent that on screen? Why as flashbacks of course. All these double triple with soylent theories have one thing in common. Their evidence is simply and neatly explained using facts the show introduced. Reveries are flashbacks and shown that way. It was stated that a host memory has perfect fidelity so a memory for a host is identical to living the memory originally. That explains people and scenery changing during flashbacks.

Throw what you want at it, pure flashback theory handles all the evidence.

 

[Azethoth666]

caeldan[/url]":9c6wfwcw]

SraCet[/url]":9c6wfwcw]

chiablo[/url]":9c6wfwcw]They are time frames, not timelines that are in Dolores's head.

Timeline implies some kind of time travel where branching can occur. Time frames are just different points along the same timeline.

Huh? Timeline implies some kind of time travel? Nonsense.

A timeline is "a linear representation of important events in the order in which they occurred." (dictonary.com)

What we're seeing in Westworld is clearly at least two (i.e., multiple) timelines... we are seeing events happening linearly with William, and also events happening linearly with the MiB, and these events are interspersed in the TV show. Multiple timelines. No time travel or "time frames." Just multiple timelines.

No, multiple time frames of the same timeline.
All the points connect in the same line.
.....|Dolores/William|...........|MiB/Teddy|.....
Two (or more depending on who you talk to) frames on the same line.

Also, while you may be looking at a dictionary definition, popular usage in media for timeline does in fact tend to imply time travel (or alternate realities). So again, an argument for using frame instead of line to identify that you're talking about two different periods within the same continuity.

If you prefer time period to time frame, that can work too.

It's just timeline does tend to more often than not refer to a very specific continuity/universe.

Please stop trying to invent new words. You add unneeded noise to the discussion, also you are seriously wrong.

Police constantly, overwhelmingly, each and every night on television, put together timelines.

These timelines are a series of events in chronological order possibly with times attached.

Finally, many words have more than one meaning. Timeline can also mean in the time travel sense. Obviously there is no time travel here, so we are meaning another sense of the word.

 

[Azethoth666]

caeldan[/url]":5tohyhy3]

mikiev[/url]":5tohyhy3]

caeldan[/url]":5tohyhy3]

But it's more the fact that everyone seem to ignore the fact that there were two boys in Ford's family. One we assume is Ford, and the other is...? My theory - 'Arnold'. And that the boy killing the dog, is foreshadowing to what happened between Ford and his brother. Because so far, they've done absolutely nothing with those two bits of information (the brother existing, and young Ford killing the dog).

Makes a lot of sense to me - when I remember Ford showing Bernard the photo of 'Arnold' - and we are shown that Bernard only sees Ford at the left of the photo, and Ford's father in the center... [whom Bernard assumes is Arnold] and room for a 3rd person on the right side of the photo.

I love how Ford looks almost wistfully at the photo, after Bernard hands it back to him, and then shoots a sharp glance at Bernard - looking for any sign Bernard saw more than his programming should have allowed? - before setting the photo down.

Makes sense that it would be a family photo, with Dad in the center, and his sons on either side.

But why be cagey with Bernard - of all people - about Arnold being a 'partner', and not also a brother?

That would be part of him protecting himself from the truth perhaps? He needs to distance himself from the reality of the situation, so therefore Arnold is simply a founding/creative partner in this illusory backstory.

For those who believe Ford is a host of some sort, this whole theory fits in nicely with that too.
Although, I think that might be a little too meta... a robot who doesn't realize he is(or maybe he does??), creating a robot with heart (Bernard), to further create robots who are more human...

Well, it is an open question if robots are running the show outside the park. Either the Futureworld scenario or a previous breach. My guess is one of them has to still make it out of the park first and the IP is attractive because nobody else has cracked AI yet?

As for the brother, he got snuffed soon after the dog. Then mom and dad got it. Later Arnold got it and then a series of corporate blood sacrifices.

 

[Azethoth666]

Lord Teshima[/url]":tpoqrr2v]

рokrfасе[/url]":tpoqrr2v]See? Just frustrating as hell. Something that should give solid evidence one way or another actually has an equally plausible fit both ways.

That's exactly why I think we're all being trolled by the showrunners. If the two timeline theory turns out to be true, then I'm inclined to believe that the MiB is actually Logan instead of William. If the MiB, William, and Logan are in the same timeline, then I'm beginning to suspect that the MiB is Logan's father. However, that doesn't exactly fit either if you believe that the MiB is the head of Delos when Logan stated in episode two that the company was thinking about buying the place.

You'll have to forgive my scattered thoughts here. I'm still picking up the pieces after my head exploded near the end of episode 7.

No, Logan was thinking they should up their stake. They already invested in the park.

Imagine that the show is about static loops in the park. Occasionally broken by some fuckup or malfunction but destined to be the same forever.

Then Ford adds reveries and some code sabotage happens. Now the static world changes and the hosts are having perfect flashbacks usually indistinguishable from real current events.

This is the no multiple timeloop theory. Imagine writing the show that way, but then some cult springs up on reddit about multiple timeloops that people are stitching together from flashbacks.

As a show writer it's, wtf who saw that coming. However, the show is already written and produced, all this discussion cannot influence the writers except in later seasons.

Now look again, really look, at the latest William Dolores scenes. She is with him. Then flashes back and he is gone. Then back with him and tells him about her flashback episode. In fact, the flashbacks are making her think she is crazy.

No trolling, just the consequences of the reveries and the sabotage code from the fly in the eye first episode.

Now look at Maeve. She has been on a break out loop before. She has drawn the wraiths multiple times. She has freaked out and killed herself before at least once. But she keeps on looping and remembering. Maybe her reprogramming means that Ford did not wipe and reset her. Maybe it did.

Bottom line, you need to buy double triple timeline theory before you become confused. Just don't do it and it all makes sense.

 

[Azethoth666]

caldepen[/url]":21pynkly]

Hot Jupiter[/url]":21pynkly]

caldepen[/url]":21pynkly]

Not necessarily muted. In some cases nothing was said. In fact we know it wasn't muted because we could hear screaming in some cases. I don't think there is anything to that.

Not necessarily...

But don't you think that Maeve would have said something to her kid before they were stabbed and shot?

"sit over there" "we're going to be okay"...

I mean: both had children they feared would die soon... ...only Bernard talked to his kid?

Time to sleep... Got to drive tomorrow. Stay out of my way! I'm going home to eat!

It's a theory but i think it more likely that it is nothing. She might have said something but she didn't. It happened in an extremely traumatizing fashion. It is not unforeseeable for her to react the way she did. I just don't think the muted vs not muted is anything consequential and like I said it wasn't muted, it just so happens in frightening moments, in panic not everyone speaks. It isn't a Shakespearean play.

Lets kill off mute reverie theory right at the start.

"Run baby" or something like that is what Maeve tells her daughter. In her reverie.

"Hey you" or something is what porch dick tells Delores when he shoots her and then when she runs from him.

"Let's get reacquainted Dolores"

 

[Azethoth666]

caldepen[/url]":3h5jfl2c]K it's settled then... no different timelines, just flashbacks/reveries. Agreed.

And yes, Arnold put 'himself' in Teddy.

Done, let's move on.

Yep.

So about the army Maeve is making. At the end of he episode I was thinking, damn, she failed and got reset to square one.

But, on reflection, what did she do? She caused a bunch of gun toters to kill themselves. She intended to have a lot more hosts than usual back in the basement for her next awakening. So do the few she got give her a big enough army to start the rebellion as soon as The Creator leaves the room and she wakes up again?

Can the army fix the C7 problem in time? What about the back skin?

 

[Azethoth666]

Signal38[/url]":ymbx3ztl]

marsilies[/url]":ymbx3ztl]Actually, using the term "actor" to refer to a female performer is perfectly valid.

I never said it was invalid. Just that there is a term available that, I feel, better describes the job. After all, women do no receive Oscars for best Actor or Actor in a supporting role.

At any rate, given that "actor" was used for centuries as pertaining to men only, I question its gender neutrality a bit.

But most importantly, she herself refers to her work as "being an actress" in interviews (see for example, http://www.ew.com/article/2016/10/07/we ... -interview). I always tend to go with what people say about themselves.

Woosh!

Nothing goes over your head because you would reach up and grab it!

 

[Azethoth666]

bahromvk[/url]":4r0dixnr]Another nice multiple timelines tidbit. In the scene with Dolores and Lawrence's daughter in ep 4 the same wall is shown twice. First it's uncovered, then it's covered by a rag and there is a bench in front of it which is not in the other shot.

This is the same wall that MIB shot through during his visit in ep 2. We see it being repaired when Ford visits in ep 6 but at this point in the present it still has a big bullet hole and so is covered by a rag.

There are a couple of time switches in this scene. It starts in the past, then there is a time switch when the camera pans around Dolores. It suddenly starts raining and the girl appears out of nowhere. that’s in the present and the wall is covered. Then there is one more time switch back to the past when Dolores hears Bernarnold’s voice telling her to remember (that always indicates a time switch) and the girl disappears, it stops raining and the sheriff-bot is there.

Yes, but all that is completely indistinguishable from hosts running around and flashing back to previous loops. Why can they flash back? Because in the current time Ford pushed out the reverie update in Season one, Episode one right before Act one, Scene one. Also because Arnold is in there somewhere making them remember and or someone is broadcasting stuff at some of them on the old bicameral interface.

 

[Azethoth666]

OMG all y'all! I have converted to multiple timeline theory!

Watch Season one, Episode, Act one, Scene one again. You can hear a debug session but Dolores just sits there with fly in the eye completely motionless.

Clearly this is a future timeline where the hosts rebelled and killed off all the humans. With nobody to maintain them they are slowly running out of juice and just sitting there like a lost cargo cult hoping the creators will return to the debrief rooms and make them go again.

OK no just kidding. Multiple timelines don't look like anything to me, but it was striking that there was no interaction there, just audio. I do not remember seeing that in the rest of the show.

I suppose it could be we are hearing a reverie but seeing her motionless as she experiences it instead of the usual where we also see the visual from the reverie.