Water utility announces it’s ditching fluoride—then reveals it did so years ago
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The City of Birmingham, and Jefferson County (the county where the vast majority of Birmingham residents live) voted 54% for Kamala Harris in 2024, and is home to a top 20 NIH funding medical research university (University of Alabama at Birmingham) which pioneered such backwoods technology such as heart lung bypass machines that is consistently ranked in the top 10 nationally and worldwide in many specialities
Alabama isn't all dumb, backwoods rednecks just like there are dumb backwoods rednecks in Michigan and inland California
Liberals (of which I'd consider myself one) would do well to stop shitting on places like Alabama if they ever want to convince some of the people there to change their minds
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I’m up in North Alabama where this happened as someone else mentioned. My mom lives in Birmingham. We were very angry when we found out about it in my town, although a new mayor was elected immediately thereafter partly on a platform of restoring the fluoride.
There was a public hearing done after the fact and a bunch of us spoke to the utility board about it. The single most frustrating and infuriating part for me was when they gave as one of their excuses the fact that “the administration may be enacting regulations requiring everyone to abandon fluoride”. The gall that a bunch of old Alabama conservatives who have never given two shits about anything the federal government has ever told them would do this because the administration MIGHT ban it was unbelievable. I told them directly how stupid this was and a whole bunch of of other people did too.
We’ll see what happens. I actually don’t believe that in my city we would have supported this with a popular vote, as we are probably one of the most “liberal” cities in Alabama, but you can’t ever assume such things.
There was a public hearing done after the fact and a bunch of us spoke to the utility board about it. The single most frustrating and infuriating part for me was when they gave as one of their excuses the fact that “the administration may be enacting regulations requiring everyone to abandon fluoride”. The gall that a bunch of old Alabama conservatives who have never given two shits about anything the federal government has ever told them would do this because the administration MIGHT ban it was unbelievable. I told them directly how stupid this was and a whole bunch of of other people did too.
We’ll see what happens. I actually don’t believe that in my city we would have supported this with a popular vote, as we are probably one of the most “liberal” cities in Alabama, but you can’t ever assume such things.
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MAGAts are numerous in Birmingham. So, as you might expect, there is a river of brain-dead bullshit about fluoridation coming from them on local Facebook changes.
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Thank you. It is a very conservative place, but this is still my home, has almost all of my family and friends, and I have just as much right to it as the conservatives do. There are still many different kinds of people living in this state and we definitely didn’t vote for this, although our state did as a whole for sure.
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Pfft, it's not like them kids need teefs to slurp up their daily ration of workhouse gruel.
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Important to differentiate between the City of Birmingham and the rest of the metro area. 170k+ of the CAW customers are in Jefferson County which very reliably votes Democratic, and the rest of the 203k connections are in the suburbs, so less than 20% of the CAW customer area is covered by what I would say (as a Birmingham native) are "MAGA areas"
Which is where this controversy comes from--the state took over the Birmingham Water Works Board and a majority of representation on the board prior to the change a couple of years ago was the City of Birmingham and Jefferson County. Now, the state + Shelby and Blount counties have more seats and have put all of these changes into place
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Quadraginta Duo
Wise, Aged Ars Veteran
I'm glad that someone posted about this distinction, because I have questions!
1. I was an alcohol/antiseptic mouthwash user for a long time, but I read somewhere that the alcohol-based ones can actually be quite hard on your gums and teeth.
2. At that point I switched to a non-alcohol fluoride-based mouthwash. Anecdotally speaking it had a much less intense mouth feeling compared to the alcohol one.
3. Recently I had a dental cleaning where my hygienist mentioned that a lot of mouthwashes kill all mouth bacteria, i.e. both beneficial and harmful bacteria. Her recommendation was floss first, then brush with a fluoride toothpaste, and then to spit thoroughly and avoid drinking/rinsing with water for 30 minutes so as to let the fluoride do its job.
4. She also mentioned that if you're sick, a good old fashioned salt + warm water rinse and gargle between flossing and brushing can be very effective at taking out mouth/throat germs.
I'm having a hard time verifying this info with an external source; I don't want to query the AI synophants, and I assume that Big Mouthwash would never admit that mouthwash isn't that necessary.
I figure that if anyone will have answers on this, it'll be the Ars hivemind
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Looking forward to the data from dental insurers - though it may be that not enough time has passed for a strong effect to be evident. Any epidemiologists here who can weigh in?
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i'm thinking it's a real world study that would not have been possible because of ethics. that study and its data should be done and made public asap.
i also think all the families with young kids who don't have access to a dentist should be given free dental services for at least a few years, paid for by the u tility company (and bar the company from charging customers for it via some bs fee).
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I call foul on the "no background in ..." sentence. He absolutely has a background - he's been a patient for brain damage, and a charlatan causing health scares that cost lives the world over. What he has is no expertise. And less brain matter than you'd expect a typical human being. They may or may not be related.
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Less than you think. Dental care is always the last thing on the list when the money isn't there and teeth get cheaply extracted rather than expensive support.
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Humble Christians will ask for a Petrine cross. The inverted crucifix is the symbol of the pope after all.
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There are plenty of previous "let's get rid of fluoride" movements. Your favorite AI can find plenty of examples.
Calgary, Albert. Ceased fluoride 2011. Excellent comparisons available with Edmonton (nearby). >75% increase in number of children requiring general anesthesia for treatment. >125% increase in primary tooth decay surfaces. Fluoride reinstated 2021.
Windsor, Ontario, Ceased 2013. Decision reversed 2018 after the same negative effects were observed. It took four more years for the water supply to be fluoridated again.
Juneau, Alaska.Ceased 2007. 50% increase in mean dental treatment cost per child. Research compares Juneau and Anchorage (did not stop fluoridation), and the findings are completely consistent with existing research.
It goes on and on.
And yet, somehow, we're back here again. Good luck, parents of Alabama!
Calgary, Albert. Ceased fluoride 2011. Excellent comparisons available with Edmonton (nearby). >75% increase in number of children requiring general anesthesia for treatment. >125% increase in primary tooth decay surfaces. Fluoride reinstated 2021.
Windsor, Ontario, Ceased 2013. Decision reversed 2018 after the same negative effects were observed. It took four more years for the water supply to be fluoridated again.
Juneau, Alaska.Ceased 2007. 50% increase in mean dental treatment cost per child. Research compares Juneau and Anchorage (did not stop fluoridation), and the findings are completely consistent with existing research.
It goes on and on.
And yet, somehow, we're back here again. Good luck, parents of Alabama!
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"Get out and vote!"
No. That's literally the last thing you do as a responsible citizen. Get out there and find (or become) a reasonable candidate. Support that candidate. Let people know. Donate. Volunteer. Raise awareness.
You only vote at the end of the race, it starts long before then.
Edit: Not you specifically, but making the point that the ham-fisted "vote!" is literally the lamest and literally last answer.
Edit 2: If voting was the answer, campaigns would cost nothing and last a week, and there'd be a non-party "register to vote" campaign maybe a week or two before that closes to make sure people update their details.
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Ah, thank you. I had some suspicions that there were some local/county/state issues involved here.
And as some friendly advice to everyone else from outside the South and Appalachia, never mistake stupidity for what can better be explained by bigotry and malignant neglect. There are reasons why people put out that "good ol' boys don't know what they're doing" stereotype, and it's to hide the fact that they know goddamned well what they're doing and who they're doing it to.
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I think it's people being more ignorant and being gullible to the lunatic idiots that only used to broadcast over the radio in the desert around Area 51 then progressing to social media after Obama used it to help him win.
Trump was the only one that ever said "fake news" and then his lackeys just ran with it. Education has always been lacking in this country and I think most rural towns wanted to keep it that way!
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An important part of the history here is that folks like William F. Buckley and Barry Goldwater worked to push the John Birchers out of the conservative movement. They’re the ones responsible for making General Ripper’s position an absurdist satire a generation later. Would that we could see the same today.
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That logic hasn't worked since 1996.
Edit. Moved it up four years, because Bush was definitely a stark choice over Gore, and every election since has been equally stark or starker.
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While you're correct on saying that each of the 2 major parties and their subsequent media outlets each have their biases and it shouldn't be and never was intended to be a party system, as per George Washington I think, ...it is the current reality we live in.
There are smaller parties you can vote for, such as the Independent Party, but 1 party panders to the right-leaning "conservative" rich and the other panders, mostly, to the left-leaning conservative rich. Each major party has their own "liberal" or "radical" side, but they don't contribute as much as the rich voters in each party, except for number of votes. However, the "left-leaning party" panders to those that own or run enterprises that help those making under $500,000, while the "right-leaning party" panders to those making over that previous amount and says whatever they can to appeal to the U.S. populace's desire for personal independence, even if it's lies. Both parties will vote to stop crime, but this presidential administration isn't making any real effort currently to stop cartels, gangs, and mafias here at home.
You also have months, or years, to research a presidential candidate and trust that other competitors will show you any bad historical facts about that candidate. Trump already was president once and much of what's happening now is just a continuation of his previous term; it's not rocket science to figure out what he'd do during this term. 'Project 2025' was proven to be linked to him even though he denied it. He has even been using things accomplished during Biden's 1 term as his own!
In the end... only a voter's biased media consumption could've made them blind to this current administration's actions. I might accept excuses in 2028 or maybe 2015... but definitely not for 2024!
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I’m just gonna throw it out there as someone who has an Ohio EPA water supply license, And a pretty high one at that: If I were the operator of record of that plan and I stopped adding fluoride without filing paperwork and having my EPA region approved that change my ass could go to jail. We’re not even talking about the falsification to customers about having used funds to pay for fluoride. What we’re really talking about is potential fossil vacation of submitted monthly operating reports to regional EPA offices.
On the line for your daily fluoride test there is a value you are legally required to put down. that plant either falsified the data and said that they were putting fluoride in or they removed fluoride, were hit with multiple violations, or they were never caught. it’s blatantly illegal if they violated a drinking water standard. Considering that’s a daily average one they’ve admitted to violating that standard well over 800 times at this point. That actually means they violated the standard from almost the entire length of a survey period. Add to the fact that they willfully neglected that standard, if I pulled that garbage, I would be seriously looking at criminal charges. I don’t know if it’s all the inbreeding in Alabama and that’s why they haven’t been criminally charged but last I checked there’s paperwork to file before they can do that.
On the line for your daily fluoride test there is a value you are legally required to put down. that plant either falsified the data and said that they were putting fluoride in or they removed fluoride, were hit with multiple violations, or they were never caught. it’s blatantly illegal if they violated a drinking water standard. Considering that’s a daily average one they’ve admitted to violating that standard well over 800 times at this point. That actually means they violated the standard from almost the entire length of a survey period. Add to the fact that they willfully neglected that standard, if I pulled that garbage, I would be seriously looking at criminal charges. I don’t know if it’s all the inbreeding in Alabama and that’s why they haven’t been criminally charged but last I checked there’s paperwork to file before they can do that.
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Depending on the aquifer, some well water has sufficient levels of fluoride naturally, some doesn't. At one remote site where I worked for many years, the well water that we used daily was actually over-blessed with fluoride, and we were forced to bring in water from an outside source for drinking. My own rural residential well is down-gradient from that particular site, and while it's not over the limit, we do have abundant natural fluoride in it. Some of us rural poors get lucky.
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Funny, apparently as you were posting this, I was musing about the post-Trump government keeping at least one ICE detention facility open, specifically as a place for all corrupt Trump administration officials and criminal officers to serve out their prison terms.
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Resistance
Wise, Aged Ars Veteran
On election day, voting is the first thing you do as a responsible citizen.
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Relax! I live in Florida in a "blue" city, because most cities are in the U.S., and most people here aren't the "Florida Man" type. The media, mainly up north, just like to cater to the higher population areas up there, even though many of those people, or their parents, come down here and stupid stuff then ensues. When I hear about "Florida Man" shenanigans, I laugh at the fools too, because I don't take it as an attack on my "state pride"!
Florida also has numerous governmental scientific facilities here too, because the south typically has had lower cost of living, land, and other benefits from a governmental perspective. In time, all the consistent money going into an area can make the area flourish and in turn... influence the political leanings of that area to lean more "left".
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Fluoride is not what ruins the taste of city water. My well water, coming from a volcanic aquifer that flows through gravel beds of volcanic, limestone, and quartzite cobbles, is some of the best and purist I've ever tasted and tested, and it's got plenty of fluoride in it naturally. (In fact, there's an old fluoride mine about 30 miles upstream from me)
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I see.
So if I'm parsing this sentence correctly then,
Murty has heard that many people who moved house to Portland
visit a dentist and the dentist can tell that the patients are new to the area when looking at their teeth
because their teeth are "messed up"/"damaged"/"injured"/"hurt" from growing up in a place that fluoridated their water.
Correct?
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My point wasn't to let the State of Alabama off the hook, but rather to point out that the people getting screwed by the state in this instance didn't vote for it, and don't deserve it. There's very often a "well they're getting what they deserve!" when Alabama screws over Birmingham in particular, and if you do a little research on the history of Birmingham starting in say the 1960s to this point, it would clarify quite a bitRelax! I live in Florida in a "blue" city, because most cities are in the U.S., and most people here aren't the "Florida Man" type. The media, mainly up north, just like to cater to the higher population areas up there, even though many of those people, or their parents, come down here and stupid stuff then ensues. When I hear about "Florida Man" shenanigans, I laugh at the fools too, because I don't take it as an attack on my "state pride"!
Florida also has numerous governmental scientific facilities here too, because the south typically has had lower cost of living, land, and other benefits from a governmental perspective. In time, all the consistent money going into an area can make the area flourish and in turn... influence the political leanings of that area to lean more "left".
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I've heard all of those things, too. Here's what I've found out through a bit of online research as of a couple years ago, and my own personal experience.I'm glad that someone posted about this distinction, because I have questions!
1. I was an alcohol/antiseptic mouthwash user for a long time, but I read somewhere that the alcohol-based ones can actually be quite hard on your gums and teeth.
2. At that point I switched to a non-alcohol fluoride-based mouthwash. Anecdotally speaking it had a much less intense mouth feeling compared to the alcohol one.
3. Recently I had a dental cleaning where my hygienist mentioned that a lot of mouthwashes kill all mouth bacteria, i.e. both beneficial and harmful bacteria. Her recommendation was floss first, then brush with a fluoride toothpaste, and then to spit thoroughly and avoid drinking/rinsing with water for 30 minutes so as to let the fluoride do its job.
4. She also mentioned that if you're sick, a good old fashioned salt + warm water rinse and gargle between flossing and brushing can be very effective at taking out mouth/throat germs.
I'm having a hard time verifying this info with an external source; I don't want to query the AI synophants, and I assume that Big Mouthwash would never admit that mouthwash isn't that necessary.
I figure that if anyone will have answers on this, it'll be the Ars hivemind
Antiseptic mouthwashes can be with or without alcohol. The alcohol isn't really what kills the bacteria, because its concentration is too low for that. It supposedly is just there to help the actual antimicrobial stuff penetrate deeper into plaque, or something like that, to increase the effectiveness. I was unable to find any research comparing the real-world effectiveness of alcohol versus non-alcohol antiseptic mouthwash.
As I understand it, leaving the residual fluoride toothpaste on your teeth by not rinsing after brushing should be equivalent to using a fluoride mouthwash.
I heard the salt-water rinse/gargle thing many years ago, from someone who unfortunately was into a lot of woo-woo stuff, so eventually I stopped taking it seriously, but I haven't actually looked into it more recently. It sounds superficially plausible, but then I remember that when you're sick (1) some throat germs will probably be far enough down in the throat that gargling won't reach them, and (2) bacterial throat infections will sometimes be in a thick layer at the back of the throat or nestled deep in a thick mass in the tonsil crypts (the folds in the tonsils), and I just don't think salt water or even mouthwash is going to do much to that. Doctors prescribe actual antibiotics for a serious throat infection (maybe too often, but that's a separate issue).
Speaking of tonsil crypts, and connecting to your hygienist's comment about mouthwashes killing both helpful and harmful bacteria (which I've also heard), that's probably technically true, but its relevance to practical hygiene recommendations seems to still be up in the air. So here's my personal experience: probably due to some rather deep tonsil crypts, I used to regularly get small or medium tonsil stones. These are pale yellowish clumps of bacterial mass that build up in the tonsil crypts and can cause noticeable bad breath if they're big enough (or if you're, ahem, close enough to someone). It was bad enough that every time I brushed my teeth, I would also stick my finger all the way to the back of my throat to push on my tonsils from various directions and try to pop out any stones hiding in there.
But then I switched from using alcohol antiseptic mouthwash only once a day to using it twice a day instead. And I've gotten practically no tonsil stones since that switch.
Now, just maybe, possibly, the problem was that I had been using antiseptic mouthwash once a day for so long that I've already lost the good bacteria that were keeping the bad ones in check, so using even more of it is my only way to keep the bad ones in check now. If that's the case, then, well, I hope the mouthwash isn't harming me more than that, because there's no way I'm going back to suppressing my gag reflex and pushing on my tonsils with my fingers every morning and night. And short of interviewing people to find candidates with good dental health and no halitosis to get an, uh, oral bacteria transfer[*] from them, I don't really see a solution until researchers learn what the helpful oral bacteria actually are and do.
[*] This can be read as hot, kinky, or gross. I will leave that choice to the reader.
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No. Murty is saying their dental health starts deteriorating after moving from a place with fluoridated water to a place without fluoridated water (Portland) because they don't know they need to get fluoride from somewhere other than the tap water.
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“... ending drinking water fluoridation allows customers and their health care providers to make more individualized decisions about fluoride use.”
Yes, because making uninformed decisions are the absolute best way to protect your health.
https://www.cbs42.com/news/local/rf...-than-green-party-libertarian-party-combined/
It is no surprise that Alabama ranks 8th from the bottom in US state educational levels. Keep them ignorant and they will believe anything.
Yes, because making uninformed decisions are the absolute best way to protect your health.
https://www.cbs42.com/news/local/rf...-than-green-party-libertarian-party-combined/
It is no surprise that Alabama ranks 8th from the bottom in US state educational levels. Keep them ignorant and they will believe anything.
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Alabama is trying to catch up, since there are 7 other states rated even lower than them in the US state's ranking of educational levels.
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Genetics affect your teeth outcomes more than anything else. If you have good genes and a reasonable oral hygiene routine, you'll probably be fine. If you lost the genetic lottery, you might need prescription mouthwash and toothpaste and extra frequent visits to the dentist no matter what you do.
I assume you're an adult, probably at least in your 30s? Have you had teeth problems? If not, just keep doing what you're doing.
I would like to specifically address this bit though: "Her recommendation was floss first, then brush with a fluoride toothpaste, and then to spit thoroughly and avoid drinking/rinsing with water for 30 minutes so as to let the fluoride do its job."
I've heard that before, and I don't doubt it's good for your teeth, but ew ew ew ew ew. Don't rinse for thirty minutes? I think I'd rather get all my teeth pulled. If your local water isn't fluoridated, can't you just take a supplement? Failing that, rinse your mouth after brushing like normal then use a fluoride rinse. At least then you don't have all that gross debris and toothpaste in your mouth. Blech. There are so many other methods to get fluoride to your teeth that I'll never understand that particular suggestion.
I also don't get why some people like to floss first. If I brush first, there's essentially no debris left when I floss, which makes it much less of a chore. If I floss first, I'm constantly cleaning off the floss and it's gross and time consuming. I assume it's suggested in this context so you can rinse after flossing and get rid of some of the debris that way. Which says all I need to know about it (ew).
I'm not a dentist, and I appear to have gotten lucky on the genetic front (never had a cavity), so listen to me over your dentist at your own peril.
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Felon45 wanted to roll back the ban on asbestos, but he received sufficient criticism that he gave up.
“Donald Trump has supported the continued use of asbestos, which is a known carcinogen, by allowing the Environmental Protection Agency to evaluate new uses instead of banning it outright. This has drawn criticism from health advocates and environmental groups concerned about the associated health risks.”
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jm_leviathan
Ars Scholae Palatinae
The fluoride "controversy" isn't really about fluoride, but about the broader concept of public health (and public anything). The idea that there is such a thing as "society" and that we can collectively make decisions to improve the collective welfare is something that a large subset of modern western, particularly American ideology finds rather objectionable.
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I left The South many years ago. Best life decision ever. Most of those states are still run by the good ol' boy network that want to keep their citizens poor and ignorant.
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Don't rely on your city to save you. Fluoride statistically lowers rates of caries, but it's not a magic bullet. Get yourself a sonicare 1100 for $20, find a flossing product that is easy and convenient enough that you will use it 1 to 2 times a day, and make that a habit around 10 years old. If you do that, chances are you won't be buying somebody like me a new car.
In all seriousness though, floss. It's more important than brushing , it's more important than any rinse. It is king when it comes to keeping yourself away from the dentist. In my practice interproximal caries (flossing cavities) account for over 75% of the fillings I do. They account for over half of the crowns I do. They account for over 90% of the implants I place. They are the most destructive caries, the restorations we fix them with have the shortest longevity of any type of filling besides a class IV, and when they fail it is often times a root canal and crown, or a crown. Or an extract and implant.
Keep in mind S. mutans is an anaerobic bacteria. From the time you have your teeth cleaned to the time anaerobes are heavily populating your dental plaque is between 16-20 hours. Scrape that shit off before the cariogenic and periodonal pathogens run amuck.
In all seriousness though, floss. It's more important than brushing , it's more important than any rinse. It is king when it comes to keeping yourself away from the dentist. In my practice interproximal caries (flossing cavities) account for over 75% of the fillings I do. They account for over half of the crowns I do. They account for over 90% of the implants I place. They are the most destructive caries, the restorations we fix them with have the shortest longevity of any type of filling besides a class IV, and when they fail it is often times a root canal and crown, or a crown. Or an extract and implant.
Keep in mind S. mutans is an anaerobic bacteria. From the time you have your teeth cleaned to the time anaerobes are heavily populating your dental plaque is between 16-20 hours. Scrape that shit off before the cariogenic and periodonal pathogens run amuck.
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You'd think that, but caries diagnosis isn't very scientific, and it certainly isn't very reproducible. That's one of the major problems in the field of dentistry.
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