That’s not the case for my VW, but it is a 2002 model year with a barely functional tape deck, so it may not be an exemplar of how modern cars operate.
The Electric Car Thread
- Thread starter Skoop
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That’s not the case for my VW, but it is a 2002 model year with a barely functional tape deck, so it may not be an exemplar of how modern cars operate.
My 2006 Civic definitely did not do that. My 2016 Volvo definitely does. Pretty sure Tesla's already do.
Also I'm with continuum on the headlights. Most modern VW/Audi platforms are a fucking nightmare to swap them, and it gets worse if they are HID.
I'll gladly pay 0.5-1 hour of shop labor to not fuck with it myself.
I'll gladly pay 0.5-1 hour of shop labor to not fuck with it myself.
my Ranger will stop the wipers wherever they are, but even though it's a 2011 it's ancient technology-wise and still has a hard-wired ignition switch. the newer cars I've seen with BCM-controlled ignition/run will leave accessories powered after ignition off until you open the door. don't know if they'll still park the wipers or leave them wherever they are.
Really depends on the car. VW's specifically typically have two BCMs for lighting/accessories (Modules 09 and 46, cent. electrics and cent. convenience) and they can turn literally anything on/off at a whim.
My '07 Golf even used to do "graceful degradation" for the lighting. Brake light out? It used the tail light, tail light out too, indicator came on, both of those out, the high intensity fog. It looked like it ran down a list of options until it found a bulb that flowed current, but it was going to turn a light on.
And it would turn everything off when the battery voltage dropped to 11v so that it would still start when you came back after leaving the lights on (you had to actively leave the car in emergency mode to run the battery flat).
My current '15 Hyundai i30 kills the wipers dead with the ignition. That was quite a jolt the first time it happened, it felt like time travel back top the 90s.
Yeah, I guess that's why sales of EVs in Germany doubled in 2017 vs. 2016, to 54K units (1.6% marketshare).
And in every month since Nov. 2017 marketshare has been >= 2% , about the same as the UK and slightly better than France.
The real reason Germany's been lagging up to recently is the lack of incentives. That was fixed in H2'16, and it took some time to catch up, although marketshare is nowhere near the Scandinavian countries yet.
My car which doesn't have it is a 2008 Škoda, so uses a VW module.
Anyway, it's certainly a minor detail (*)... unless it causes scratches when lifting the hood :devious: ,
so stands to reasons it wouldn't have been common when it necessitated extra components or cost, but has become common once it's SW-controlled, so cost is just a couple of lines of code.
(*)luxury cars excepted.
A company named Sila Nanotechnolgies has developed a novel anode that could make for significant increases (10 - 15%) in Li ion battery energy density. According to this little article they have already signed a deal to work the tech into BMW vehicles in the next 5 years or so. From the article:
They claim to have found a way to use silicon as the primary anode material while at the same time mitigating the volume increases that come with absorption of some many lithium ions.
You know we have a battery technology thread, right? 
This is perfectly on topic there!
This is perfectly on topic there!W.r.t. the recent OTA discussion, GM's about to start issuing OTA updates for the Bolt.
I'm not that crazy about automotive OTA updates in general, due to the risks, but it looks like it's inevitable that all carmakers will be doing this.
I'm not that crazy about automotive OTA updates in general, due to the risks, but it looks like it's inevitable that all carmakers will be doing this.
Based on that GM can't update at least the battery calibration stuff and likely much more OTA.
Primarily. There are already far too many examples of actively dangerous potential exploits (affecting brakes and/or drivetrain, e.g., a twice on Teslas, Jeep, Toyota, etc.)
Many of the previously demonstrated exploits required previous physical access to the car (not breaking in, just identifying its internal network credentials via WiFi, tire inflation sensors via Bluetooth and the like), but it obviously gets worse once cellular remote access is possible. I'd be very surprised if blackhats haven't already employed some exploits in the field.
This isn't specific to electric cars, of course, but their overall designs are newer, and they do seem to have a more centralized control architecture, and most ofthem already have app connectivity anyway, for things like scheduling charging and pre-conditioning of the cabin.
Nothing inherently less secure about Teslas, but they do use OTA updates extensively. The fact that security researchers were able to compromise the same systems two years running (including brakes and door locks), after the SW was supposedly fixed, is disconcerting.
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To a lesser extent I oppose SW updates of cars due to usability & safety as well.
IMO a car should be operable by using muscle memory, and adding/changing stuff in the UI users are already used to is usually detrimental to that.
I also suspect carmakers will follow the lead of device and OS makers, and not accompany updates with full change logs.
But I acknowledge I'm outlier on that issue -- I also strongly oppose automatic updates of any type of software on any device, and IME SW updates on consumer devices almost always cause as many issues as they fix.
They're not actually changing anything in battery calibration in the firmware update -- just the point in time when the car tells the driver about a pending possible problem.
I don't know why -- quite likely it's not car ECM/main computer firmware but separate firmware that runs the BMS, which might not accessible from the outside.
The latter if so isn't necessarily a bad thing and might is likely intentional on GM's part; messing with a BMS's operating parameters on a large, high-voltage pack could be dangerous.
This gives more info about the battery issue. Supposedly only a few have been affected in practice. I expect GM has no way to know which packs will develop the fault, so they can't recall that subset, and they're not issuing a general recall for all batteries, which would be expensive and a PR nightmare. Instead they're monitoring all batteries OTA.
I wasn't talking about this update, but that the article pointed out that GM *can't* update the battery firmware/calibrations OTA.
I wasn't diasgreeing with you
Just clarifying for someone who may have not read the links that GM wasn't intending to change calibration at all, not just OTA, and instead its update was only in alerting the driver sooner (to lessen the risk of a sudden unanticipated loss of propulsion).
IOW, the GM update, irrespective of whether it's OTA, does not in any way change the battery's physical behavior; cars that have the issue need their battery replaced (under warranty).
I also speculated on a possible reason why it wasn't possible to issue the update OTA, which would obviously be much more convenient for users.
Ugh, how awful. It's like they took all of Tesla's great ideas and GM'd them.
Seriously, mandating the vehicle be unplugged?
Yeah, looks like they really don't trust their own OTA procedure.
i don't like it honestly.
i don't mind 'updates'. that's pretty cool since the tech is fresher but OTA is a no go imo.
just wait till someone gets control and funks around with 'autopilot' and sends someone off a cliff or into oncoming traffic or something.
i don't trust that at all.
You could already take over a jeep because of the uconnect radio having an unfirewalled TCP port open to the internet.
Tesla takes security seriously, big auto, so far, does not.
Also OnStar vehicles have had limited remote reflash capabilities basically forever.
well, I just received my invite (two year, 14 day wait) and will probably wait even longer for the AWD but definitely tempted
Have you had white interior before? I have cream interior on my current car and I swore I would never, ever have light interior again. If you have, ignore me. It just shows every little scuff and dye transfer from clothes is an issue, and I had no idea about it until I had it myself, so I always warn people who haven't had it before.
He also indicated a 'similar timeline' for white interior, which is what I'm waiting for. I has a sad.
I am excited.I don't drive very much. My current car is two years old and has 11,000 miles on it. So I'm not really dependent on this car. But I'm surprised I got my email. The closest service centers are quite a haul. The one in Charlotte is 1:48 away. Both of the ones in Atlanta are about 2:20 away.
I didn't configure anything exciting. I wanted a black car, so no need for custom paint (debated silver, but my last two cars have been silver so it's time for a change). I opted for the non-ugly wheels and got autopilot. But I passed on FSD. I can add it when they actually deliver on it, if ever. But I honestly think I will have traded up to a new car by then at the rate FSD is progressing.
If anyone has specific questions about the configuration or anything, I'm happy to answer them. But I can't tell you anything reddit hasn't already stated in detail.
It's the trade offs we make. Tesla's at least hired hackers as employees to find exploits. An they encourage researchers to hack their cars and report it to them, turning around fixes pretty quickly when they're reported (which is the case with the hacks of Tesla's demonstrated so far).
GM works with hackers, it also has an internal red team (I've met them) and a year ago placed cybersecurity on the same level of importance as physical safety testing. It remains to be seen how the GM rollout happens but from personal experience as well as talking to people in the field, cybersecurity is something it (and the industry) are taking a lot more seriously as of the last 18 months.
There are a number of different OTA platforms out there from suppliers; I spoke with both Airbiquity and also Harman about this recently and there are others out there, so that's not a particularly difficult thing to do, and GM has more experience with telematics than anyone else, because of OnStar.
On the other side, I'm also not hearing much concern even from security companies about malicious actors. The attack surface is getting larger, but there are easier targets out there for ransomware—you're more likely to get a hospital to pay ransomware than someone driving a Chevy Bolt.
I'm looking to replace two cars sometime within the next year or so. One is a CR-V, for which I'm still looking at Pacifica or Outlander (heavily leaning towards Pacifica, at the moment). At the time of my last posting, I was pondering getting the eventual Leaf replacement first, and just having 3 cars for a while. I'm back to thinking it makes the most sense to replace the CR-V first and trade/sell it immediately.
It was for replacing the Leaf that I was considering the Bolt / Volt / Ionic PHEV (and now Clarity PHEV as well). With a Pacifica in our fleet, I will probably go for something small, cheap, and efficient, which would put the Ionic pretty near the top of the list, if only it had a bit better electric range. The Niro will get a look too, before I finally pull the trigger.
I just got my invitation for my Model 3 reservation today, actually. It's still a little tempting to splurge, but for the moment I'm holding firm to the conclusion that the Long Range version is more expensive than I'm willing to pay -- especially if I'm already buying another new car this year. Looks like the most practical course will be buy a Pacifica this year, then -- maybe -- wait and see what happens to the federal tax credit for the Model 3 by the time the base model is available. I think there's a reasonable chance the credit will get extended somehow, especially if the blue wave manages to flip the Senate as well as the House, but even if there's no action on that front, I'll probably be able to get a Model 3 in time to catch the credit while it's still $3750. If I miss even that level of credit, then the other brands would become even more appealing (though GM will have lost their credit too).
One factor that still has me looking to a Model 3 over some of the much cheaper options is that I've really enjoyed the Leaf being a pure BEV (no oil changes, barely any maintenance), but I'm really, really skeptical of their battery lives until the manufacturer has some years under their belt with that particular chemistry. At least with Tesla, watching the Jeff Dahn talks has convinced me that they've got some serious eyes on the issue (as well as better thermal control, though I think that's only part of Nissan's problem). I think GM is probably doing fine with the Bolt, but it still feels a bit too early to tell. The Volt is pretty clearly solid, which is encouraging. But if I wait too long hoping the Model 3 timing will work out, then stuff like the Ionic will have a big price advantage over the credit-less GM products, and Hyundai's battery life is still a big question mark.
Or... I just look for the cheapest lease I can find for a low-range compliance car, then in three years time when the lease is up, look for a gently used (but loaded) Model 3. Anyways, that's more then enough stream-of-conscience babble for one post. Too many possibilities, mostly good ones, just ... expensive.
...and my reservation has slid again, May-July. I don't mind it sliding as much as I mind it sliding in the month my reservation is supposed to be available, multiple times in a row. It's bad customer experience.
My dad got his this week and also is likely going to cancel it.
Just too expensive.
Just too expensive.
Why do you do this? Why did you take a discussion about how handling security in an OTA update world and turn it into Tesla vs. GM instead of Tesla and GM?
no one mentioned Tesla until you held them up as a shining example. "Tesla's at least hired hackers" implies no one else has. I can tell you there's been a sea change in the industry over the last 18 months with regards to this stuff.I don't know if anyone else has or hasn't. I wasn't holding up Tesla as a shining example, nor did I call GM stupid; just stating what Tesla has publicly announced they do. Everyone is going to have to get on board with OTA and be transparent about their security practices because consumers expect it. I thought that was the discussion, not a battle of car companies.
Ah, so
OK, once you have a long-range car suitable for road trips, do you really need more than a 120mi-AER car for the (Leaf replacement) 2nd car? Presumably this car is to be used pretty much only for daily commuting/errand running, so shouldn't a shortish-range (100-120mi) BEV be sufficient?
(to be clear, not trying to be argumentative -- simply very much interested in people's decision-making, to (hopefully) consider getting an EV as my next car
)For example, according to measurements collected in the (primarily European) Ioniq owner's forum (2nd version of the table has miles of range in the cells, with mph headings), the Ioniq BEV has a realistic ~100mi range at 65-75mph speeds in cool (33-41°F) temps, a bit more in warmer temps.
It turns out the new 40kWh Leaf can't be reasonably used for a long road trip: Unlike the older 24kWh/30kWh Leafs, It does not support back-to-back multiple DCFC sessions, and starting from the 2nd/3d session, throttles the charging rate to 20-25kW.
Nissan admits to the explicit throttling, in order to protect the battery. This is pretty clearly due to the lack of an active-cooling TMS in the new Leaf, and IMO is a kludge, not a solution, and a bad decision by Nissan. People are a lot more likely to use the 40kWh for occasional longish road trips than they were the previous models, both because it means less charging stops and because the DCFC network is a lot more developed than a couple of years ago.
Nissan seems to be the only holdout on active cooling, btw. Everyone else has at least forced-air cooling, AFAIK -- including Renault, Nissan's partner which uses the car's A/C if necessary.
Or... I just look for the cheapest lease I can find for a low-range compliance car, then in three years time when the lease is up, look for a gently used (but loaded) Model 3. [/quote]
Esp. if you feel you're compromising too much, and/or usually buy cars to keep for long periods, a lease sounds like a good interim solution.
(The Model 3 leaves me personally cold, for several reasons (not a hatch, too large for local conditions but still space-inefficient, touchscreen-only MMI, Tesla's Google-like eternal-Beta attitude to software), although to be fair, I haven't driven one (no Teslas in the country yet).
EVs are only now starting to show up here again, after the Better Place debacle killed them completely 5 years ago, but it's a very slow and tentative start.)
So, still no clarity PHEV review?
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Also, I'm pretty excite about the possibilities they can come up with in a Wrangler PHEV.
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Also, I'm pretty excite about the possibilities they can come up with in a Wrangler PHEV.
I'm kind of resigned to having the outlander phev for a few years longer than planned.
All the small/mid SUV BEVs coming out are either too expensive (iPace, etron etc) or fail basic SUV requirements ( Kona ev, neo etc).
I suspect there will be more options launched 2020 (VW ID suv etc) but they will still be spendy.
The iPace looks great (apart from the lack of towing?) but it'll be $130k+ here before you see the hueg option list and $160k+ for something you'd want to own.
Fingers crossed a dual motor model y comes in at less than $100k nz.
All the small/mid SUV BEVs coming out are either too expensive (iPace, etron etc) or fail basic SUV requirements ( Kona ev, neo etc).
I suspect there will be more options launched 2020 (VW ID suv etc) but they will still be spendy.
The iPace looks great (apart from the lack of towing?) but it'll be $130k+ here before you see the hueg option list and $160k+ for something you'd want to own.
Fingers crossed a dual motor model y comes in at less than $100k nz.
Great. I must have missed the article you wrote on that one, but then again I rarely read the OMG EXPENSIVE ICE CAR ones.
The Clarity looks interesting. Close Chevy Volt competitor. The weight looks like a problem though. But at least they don’t have the hump intruding on the back area foot space.
Price is way too high though. Starting $35k pretty much guarantees this car will not sell well.
The Ioniq and the Niro from Kia and Hyundai look like the real impactful game changers in the hybrid space given their very low price and excellent efficiency.
Price is way too high though. Starting $35k pretty much guarantees this car will not sell well.
The Ioniq and the Niro from Kia and Hyundai look like the real impactful game changers in the hybrid space given their very low price and excellent efficiency.