The Electric Car Thread

[halse]

VW is getting a bit more specific about their plans. 1500 BEV (Audi, VW & Seat combined)a day by the end of 2020.
Some details about the plants and so on:

https://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/15 ... 59051.html

 

[halse]

like many others my Model 3 delivery estimates have moved back to April-June for First production, late 2018 for standard battery, late 2018 for both AWD
reserved before the March 31, 2016 event

so, looks like 2019


=================
email from Tesla:

Thank you again for your continued support as a Model 3 reservation holder. In the past few months, we’ve made significant progress in production and have started delivering Model 3 to customers in over twenty states.

As we work hard to meet demand, we wanted to let you know that your estimated delivery timing has been adjusted to a slightly later window. You can log into your Tesla Account to view your current delivery estimate at any time.

Thank you for your patience. We can’t wait for you to get your Model 3. Here’s what Road & Track had to say about their first test drive.
Best Regards,
The Tesla Team

 

[halse]

the prices for the Jaguar iPace models were disappointing, we'll see Audi's prices for the e-tron tomorrow
challenging to guess at when Audi will accept US reservations/orders

 

[halse]

just went through the configuration on Jaguar's web site and it came in at $80,220 (for an SE) which isn't too bad and lower than I expected from the original info
https://build.jaguar/771F6DC6

would like to take one for a test drive— while I patiently wait for the AWD model 3

 

[halse]

you can even get a deal at Costco!
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... lt-ev-volt

Has anyone bought a Chevy Bolt lately? There’s got to be at least one person.

I am seeing incredibly good deals on cargurua. Like the price of the car is like $32k and that is before the $7500 tax credit. So one for $24-$25k. That is roughly the same price as a hybrid car, but it should have about half the operating costs.

 

[halse]

you can even get a deal at Costco!
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... lt-ev-volt
—the Bolt is ok, could use a nicer, calmer interior

Has anyone bought a Chevy Bolt lately? There’s got to be at least one person.

I am seeing incredibly good deals on cargurua. Like the price of the car is like $32k and that is before the $7500 tax credit. So one for $24-$25k. That is roughly the same price as a hybrid car, but it should have about half the operating costs.

 

[halse]

just looked and here in CT they are going for about $5k below MSRP and with fed (7500) and state (3000) incentives that is under $20k for the base model
when I test drove one back in August or so the opening offer was $2k below MSRP on a Premier

The remaining inventory of new 2017 Bolts is getting some deep discounts around my area. Considering the differences between the 2017 and 2018 models are minimal, you could get into a new Bolt for something close to half list if you search.

HALF of list? Shoot, that is very appealing. Unless you are already counting tax incentives.

Sorry, meant including incentives. That's still quite a few thousand off list before incentives.

 

[halse]

fwiw: Car and Driver gave the Model 3 a 'meh' review.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/20 ... est-review

 

[halse]

so, have you configured yet? are you excited?

(being in CT, and a non-owner I am probably going to have to wait until early 2019 to get an AWD)

Got my email yesterday to configure my Model 3.

 

[halse]

well, I just received my invite (two year, 14 day wait) and will probably wait even longer for the AWD but definitely tempted

so, have you configured yet? are you excited?

(being in CT, and a non-owner I am probably going to have to wait until early 2019 to get an AWD)

Got my email yesterday to configure my Model 3.

Recent tweets from Musk indicate that AWD is waiting for them to hit 5k/week before they add complexity with more options like that. He also said that’d probably be in July, but I’m personally expecting several months after that at least.

He also indicated a 'similar timeline' for white interior, which is what I'm waiting for. I has a sad.

Have you had white interior before? I have cream interior on my current car and I swore I would never, ever have light interior again. If you have, ignore me. It just shows every little scuff and dye transfer from clothes is an issue, and I had no idea about it until I had it myself, so I always warn people who haven't had it before. (Note: I wear really dark denim almost exclusively.)

I am excited.I don't drive very much. My current car is two years old and has 11,000 miles on it. So I'm not really dependent on this car. But I'm surprised I got my email. The closest service centers are quite a haul. The one in Charlotte is 1:48 away. Both of the ones in Atlanta are about 2:20 away.

I didn't configure anything exciting. I wanted a black car, so no need for custom paint (debated silver, but my last two cars have been silver so it's time for a change). I opted for the non-ugly wheels and got autopilot. But I passed on FSD. I can add it when they actually deliver on it, if ever. But I honestly think I will have traded up to a new car by then at the rate FSD is progressing.

If anyone has specific questions about the configuration or anything, I'm happy to answer them. But I can't tell you anything reddit hasn't already stated in detail.

 

[halse]

I found this interesting:

Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

The numbers are staggering. China had about 99 percent of the 385,000 electric buses on the roads worldwide in 2017, accounting for 17 percent of the country’s entire fleet. Every five weeks, Chinese cities add 9,500 of the zero-emissions transporters—the equivalent of London’s entire working fleet, according Bloomberg New Energy Finance.......London is slowly transforming its fleet. Currently four routes in the city center serviced by single-decker units are being shifted to electricity.......

much more at
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... l-industry

 

[halse]

another interesting article on electric buses focusing on the politics and financing

help fix 4 big urban problems
Urban transit is the EV sweet spot.

"Because capital costs are the biggest chunk of BEB lifecycle costs — remember, they cost $200,000 to $300,000 more than diesel buses up front — outside capital helps them the most. In fact, for cities with federal funding, it makes BEBs the lowest cost option. (Note that this would be true even without considering air pollution or climate benefits.)

This point is important and worth dwelling on a moment. It is a perpetual problem for clean energy technology that it costs more up front but saves more money over the long haul; purchasing decisions tend to be made by myopic agents biased against upfront costs. Most clean energy markets require tweaks and incentives to overcome this misalignment of incentives."

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environm ... tric-buses

 

[halse]

yeah, Next was bought by Apple (for $430 million, in 1996, since they needed a next generation OS) and that brought Jobs back and then he took over the next year

what happened with Jobs & Apple is a once in a generation event, not sure what lessons can be learned from it

 

[halse]

the braking distance/Consumer Reports issue is a serious to this Model 3 reservation holder
190 ft is not good for 60 to 0, should be less than 130


tweets from Musk:

Replying to @ElectrekCo and @FredericLambert
Very strange. Model 3 is designed to have super good stopping distance & others reviewers have confirmed this. If there is vehicle variability, we will figure it out & address. May just be a question of firmware tuning, in which case can be solved by an OTA software update.

Replying to @elonmusk @ElectrekCo and @FredericLambert
Even if a physical upgrade is needed to existing fleet, we will make sure all Model 3’s having amazing braking ability at no expense to customers
9:33 PM · May 21, 2018

 

[halse]

Musk chatted with Consumer Reports about Model 3 review

"In the almost hourlong discussion with Jake Fisher, CR’s director of auto testing, Musk also spoke about several areas where CR raised concerns. “He was remarkably candid,” Fisher says. “He thanked us for bringing these things to his attention.” He adds that Musk said CR’s feedback was having a positive effect on the car.....Musk spoke about the Model 3’s long stopping distances in CR’s emergency braking test. He acknowledged it was a problem and said Tesla hopes to fix it as soon as this weekend using an over-the-air (OTA) update."

more at
https://www.consumerreports.org/tesla-m ... l-3-flaws/

 

[halse]

looks like there was an OTA fix for the brake issue (it now gets a 4/5)

Tesla's Model 3 finally nabs Consumer Reports recommendation
"I've been at [Consumer Reports] for 19 years and tested more than 1,000 cars, and I've never seen a car that could improve its track performance with an over-the-air update," Jake Fisher, director of auto testing at Consumer Reports, said in a blog post.

more at
http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/30/technol ... index.html

the CR blog post is at
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-saf ... ng-update/

"Finally, Musk suggested in a tweet last week that the company would make the Model 3’s braking performance the best in its class. Although this update improved the car’s stopping distances, the braking performance is not class-leading. So for Tesla to make good on Musk’s promise, it may need additional updates to the braking software."

 

[halse]

thanks for the link, that was an interesting read on how the Model 3 and S/X share about zero components
electric cars are in the very early days of development

Syonyk (and others) may be particularly interested in this dive into the battery/BMS on the Model 3: http://evtv.me/2018/05/tesla-model-3-gone-battshit/

 

[halse]

Inside Tesla’s Model 3 Factory
If Elon Musk can make this dance of robots and people work, it will change how cars are made.

(there are lots of pictures)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features ... in-fremont

"Putting together the pieces of the car’s body is an area that all automakers automate to varying degrees. However even state-of-the-art factories tend to rely on people to transport parts and load them onto the machines. Car parts are packed together for storage and shipping, and picking them back up is difficult without human fingers.
This is one area that Tesla may have gone too far, too fast. In April, Musk acknowledged that he had to rip out a complex conveyor system for parts and replace it with workers. Various robots throughout the line met a similar fate or had to be reprogrammed. Even so, Tesla says the Model 3 body line is now 95 percent automated, including the transfer, loading, and welding of parts. "

 

[halse]

Tesla updated the Model 3 design pages so you can now go all the way through configuring a dual motor version and at the end it says you have to wait 3-6 months, and it will not take an actual order deposit. So I am still waiting.

 

[halse]

approximate math:
7000 units/week @ $50,000 per unit is $350 million/week which is $18.2 billion/year

 

[halse]

And in flying electric car news:

Ready for liftoff? Two flying taxi startups got Pentagon funding

Last year, Kitty Hawk and Joby Aviation received a total of nearly $2m from the Defense Innovation Unit Experimental (DIUx), a Pentagon organization founded to help America’s military make faster use of emerging technologies. Neither company, nor the DIUx, disclosed the funding at the time...........The DIUx’s vision for small electric aircraft is less Back to the Future and more Blade Runner, according to a document that detailed the personal aerial vehicles funding program. It reads: “These vehicles will … offer a niche capability for specific tactical applications with a low acoustic signature, near instantaneous start/stop, ability to spread an assault force across multiple vehicles, and automated systems.”


https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... kitty-hawk

 

[halse]

+1
one of my favorites from IIHS-- note what happens to the poor dummy at 0:47 or so as the head bounces about
(a 2019 would do even better)

1959 Chevrolet Bel Air vs. 2009 Chevrolet Malibu IIHS crash test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_r5UJrxcck

The fact is, last I read, traffic fatalities are down quite a bit compared to the past (including the "golden age" of the '50s and '60s where every car was by today's standards a tank).

no they weren't, not by a long shot. they might have seemed bigger, but they weren't. Put a 2018 Mustang next to a 1968 Mustang, and the 2018 is a hulking leviathan in comparison. and despite the body sheet metal being a thicker gauge and having big chrome bumpers, old cars were not designed with any mind towards controlled deformation in a crash, nor any real knowledge of a truly re-inforced passenger cage. that old "tank" would just collapse like you balling up a sheet of aluminum foil in your hand.

 

[halse]

fwiw: the nearest Tesla dealer (Mt Kisco, NY; sadly none here in CT) will be getting a Model 3 and I have a test drive scheduled for next week that I am looking forward to

 

[halse]

short report of a Model 3, RWD test drive-- they will get a AWD tester in a few weeks

pluses: seats, front & side visibility, acceleration, general driving, easy to clean interior (have a dog), screen legible in bright sunlight, autopilot, trunk size
minuses: rear visibility, the speed should be in a much larger font size, steering wheel felt small for my XL hands (or maybe I'm just used to larger)

I am 6' 2" and thin and I found all the seats to be comfy, it does the 30 to 70 merge in a blink, drives fine but it is not a 100D Model S and I like the Model 3 size and weight more than the Model S

quite likely to order an AWD in the next few days once I find out about insurance, the Fed rebate & CT incentive come to $10,500 (and due to CT wackiness will add the autopilot after purchase)

 

[halse]

Road & Track tries out the Model 3 performance model

"In our testing, we found the Model 3 Performance to be a joy around the track. It's a tossable delight, even under limited power. And while the rationing of horsepower might be frustrating, it ensures that, as long as all cooling systems are working normally, you'll never fry the car's circuitry, no matter how hard you drive it."

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/r ... rack-test/

 

[halse]

The Caribbean Should Be Leading the Electric Car Revolution. So Why Isn’t It?

The islands of the Caribbean are not a monolith, but they do have one thing in common: sunshine, and, aside from Trinidad and Tobago, a general lack of domestic fuel sources. Entrepreneurs and governments alike see an opportunity there, one that takes advantage of what the Caribbean has and sidesteps the expensive things it does not. A solar-powered electric car revolution is in its very early stages in parts of the Caribbean, but it makes an awful lot of sense.

more at
http://nymag.com/developing/2018/10/mor ... bbean.html

 

[halse]

I agree that the drive trains for the Bolt & Volt are not the main problems-- it is the lousy interiors and to a lesser extent the handling of the Volt.

 

[halse]

Yep, took both for test drives. Really, really disliked almost everything about the interior of the Volt. The Bolt drove fine, the regen is set just right, price is fine but the seats are not at all comfortable (I'm 6'2" and thin) and the two tone dash has unacceptable glare and that green color lighting is sickening. If they redid the interior I would probably get one.

Did any of you calling the Volts interior “shitty” ever actually drive one? Or are you just parroting “LOL GM crap amirite?” I’ve had a couple of ‘16 volts for a weekend here and there and IMO the interior is perfectly suitable for its market segment. It sure is a fuck ton better than the Prius.

 

[halse]

in this mostly quaint New England town about 7 to 10 school buses are hit each year-- 95% of the time (my estimate) while the bus is stationary and with lights flashing

anecdote: two years ago the elementary school bus was hit THREE times about two blocks away from where I now sit, stopped in the same spot each time

-------------

They are close-to-silent and there are already people writing to the council telling them that this is dangerous because they do not hear them coming.

I'm sure these people will turn around and bitch about how noisy diesel buses are with their next breath.

How the heck you are supposed to miss a huge bus that is painted bright colours is beyond me.

People manage to miss bright yellow diesel buses that are literally decorated with flashing lights and flapping stop signs.

 

[halse]

What happens when you get assigned Musk’s old phone number, mildly amusing

Ihttps://www.npr.org/2020/05/21/8581550 ... etty-weird

 

[halse]

The Mercedes AVTR demo looks fake but it is a real prototype

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChqM3zq ... e=youtu.be

also
"The VISION AVTR was designed in line with its innovative electric drive. This is based on a particularly powerful and compact high-voltage battery. For the first time, the revolutionary battery technology is based on graphene-based organic cell chemistry and thus completely eliminates rare, toxic and expensive earths such as metals. Electromobility thus becomes independent of fossil resources. An absolute revolution is also the recyclability by composting, which is 100% recyclable due to the materiality. As a result, Mercedes-Benz underlines the high relevance of a future circular economy in the raw materials sector."

and if that isn't enough
"In addition to an exponentially high energy density – compared to today’s battery systems with up to 1,200 Wh/litre – the technology also impresses with its exceptional fast charging capability via automated, conductive charging technology. This means that the battery will be fully recharging in less than 15 minutes. "

https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/vehicl ... sion-avtr/

not much detail, there-- a compostable car battery that charges in 15 minutes?

 

[halse]

Much more interesting is the estream, an Airstream that can park itself & much more:

THE FUTURE OF TOWABLE RVING

The Airstream eStream concept is built on THOR’s exclusive high-voltage electric chassis, featuring a battery-powered electric drivetrain that boosts fuel economy and digital technology that enhances the user experience.
eStream removes the stress of hitching up and backing up by offering maneuverability by remote control. The smart, all-electric chassis with independent motors and high capacity lithium ion batteries improve EV towing range and gas mileage.
THOR’s electric recreational vehicle platform makes planning, driving and camping easier. Have the freedom and confidence to go virtually anywhere- our digital tools let you see how many miles before you next charge and allow you to find charging stations from your phone.

https://www.thorindustries.com/innovation-estream

(I can't find a page on their actual site, so I'm linking a lifestyle/product blog page about it)

Winnebago e-RV concept

What I don't understand here is if this is just a concept, why is it so limited? An 86kWh battery with 125 miles of range would be a joke 10 years ago. If they're putting a concept together why not at least give it viable capacity?

 

[halse]

I want to get a BEV this year but want V2H and sort of want V2G, willing to wait until 2023 for V2H.
The 3.5 kW output of the Ioniq 5/Kia EV6 is sufficient for my purposes as is the battery size

So,
when do folks think that there will be anything approaching a standard for V2H/V2G hookups?
nothing really available now: https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/blo ... 2g-v2h-v2l
will Tesla ever offer V2H/V2G capability

 

[halse]

Note the ‘from the sale of the last model’

According to the FTC, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act provides rules on warranties for all consumer products, and in the automotive world it forces automakers that provide warranties to produce parts for the term of the vehicle warranty. In some cases this can be as short as 3 years after the sale of the last model. Once that term is up, they do not have any further obligations to the consumer. The entity providing the warranty can also choose to stop manufacturing parts before the warranty expires, but in that case they may be liable to replace the product or provide a refund.

The other piece of the warranty puzzle is emissions coverage that is mandated by the EPA that provides for 2 years of coverage for any emissions performance issues and 8 years of coverage for any defect related to the emissions system. While this coverage is notably longer than the usual powertrain warranty, it does not necessitate that the manufacturer must provide parts or service. It only states that they must cover the cost of any required repair
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/ ... arts-myth/


the FTC version. https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busines ... nuson-Moss

 

[halse]

This is encouraging:

To get a deal on the reconciliation bill that contains the credits, lawmakers had to agree that electric vehicles should be made with North American parts and minerals, even though it would rely on a U.S. supply chain that is in its infancy. Those rules allow lawmakers — including Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.), who insisted on the restrictions — to ride a tough-on-China message into the midterms. Democrats have a problem, though — they’re so tough that no electric vehicle on the market would qualify………. But all it may take to unlock the tax credits Democrats hope will spur Americans to get rid of their gas guzzlers are some creative definitions — a bureaucratic specialty.
There’s already a playbook for getting around geographic sourcing requirements: A decades-long program called “Buy America,” intended to ensure road and transit projects are made from American-made materials. The requirements, especially for things like steel, which is produced more cheaply overseas, have been difficult to meet since its inception — and that’s exactly why they’re sometimes waived.
More at
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/08/0 ... a-00050145

 

[halse]

fwiw: As of this afternoon there appears to be exactly zero, 0, nada new EV for sale in Connecticut.
Not even an iPace. There just might be a Volvo C40 later this week. No Ioniq 5 till mid to late September.

 

[halse]

Dallas Fewderal Reserve has put out a summary of battery production in the US & world out to 2031

Predicts worldwide production of 7,000 GWh in 2031
EV sales of 4 million in 2031
https://www.dallasfed.org/research/econ ... /1011.aspx

“ Experts expect these new investments, as well as future ones, to significantly boost U.S. production of lithium-ion batteries (Chart 1). U.S. capacity is expected to grow more than fivefold from 2021 to 2026, according to data and estimates by Benchmark Mineral Intelligence, a data and market intelligence provider. By 2031, U.S. capacity is expected to expand another 86 percent.”

 

[halse]

Plausible. They use aasymmetric temperature modulation’ with a high temperature inhibiting lithium plating. They claim this allows using existing batteries to be charged in ten minutes without degradation

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05281-0

 

[halse]

New York Times reports that the EPA will issue new regulations on Wednesday tha will effectively phase out ICE by 2032

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/08/climate/biden-electric-cars-epa.html

 

[halse]

This site lists whic BEVs qualify for the $7500 credit for a lease
looked to check on the Kia Niro (no) but the Hyundai Kona is a yes
https://leasehackr.com/blog/2023/2/18/list-of-every-ev-that-gets-a-7500-credit-on-leases