More than 2 million Teslas are being recalled due to unsafe Autopilot

Inadequate driver monitoring means that Autopilot is far too easily misused.

See full article...

 

[Snarky Robot]

We're never going to agree. I get that it's a recall, a legal process. The point is that the legal process of a recall and the general meaning of the word (to order something be returned to a place)

I assume you’d say that if my car undergoes a recall and the technician comes to my house to fix it (which is actually exactly how my last recall was resolved), that’s not a recall…right? It involved service technicians and the removal and replacement of hardware, but I didn’t have to returned to a place, so it doesn’t qualify, right?

 

[EnPeaSea]

I assume you’d say that if my car undergoes a recall and the technician comes to my house to fix it (which is actually exactly how my last recall was resolved), that’s not a recall…right? It involved service technicians and the removal and replacement of hardware, but I didn’t have to returned to a place, so it doesn’t qualify, right?

(Supporting) It was a "recall" in all correct senses of the term as in regards to automobiles when Volkswagon mailed me a sticker to correct a misprint in the owners manual. The sticker did not make the vehicle safer nor was it life-threatening to operate the vehicle with a manual containing a word missing a letter before the sticker was applied. Just CYA in case someone pressed the issue and claimed they couldn't understand and thereby injured themselves over a typo.

 

[jgershon]

... how a fix is applied is utterly irrelevant to the fact that there is a safety defect that requires fixing. The point is that the public and owners are notified about the safety defect, not that it requires a visit to a mechanic or dealership to fix.

Do recalls come with a fine for the automaker? Recalls requiring parts and labor constitute a huge penalty for the automaker, and hence a strong deterrent against shipping dangerous vehicles. Recalls involving only software have much less deterrent value on their own, and could be shrugged off as cheaper than doing adequate safety reviews or testing.

 

[chalex]

The same way better manufacturers already have: a machine vision system that checks to make sure the driver is looking at the road.

Unless you're going to try to convince me that Tesla, of all the companies in the damn world, is somehow not able to do any machine vision engineering...?

OK but it already does that, right?
https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_us/GUID-EDAD116F-3C73-40FA-A861-68112FF7961F.htmlI know when I look away to the left or right for a couple of seconds, the screen starts flashing blue.
Does yours do that?

 

[Jim Salter]

OK but it already does that, right?
https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_us/GUID-EDAD116F-3C73-40FA-A861-68112FF7961F.htmlI know when I look away to the left or right for a couple of seconds, the screen starts flashing blue.
Does yours do that?

Nope. The only thing it gives a shit about is me constantly tugging on the wheel hard enough to placate it, but not the infinitesimal amount harder that disengages it.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-101D1BF5-52D2-469A-A57D-E7230BBEE94B.html
Note: model 3 may include a camera that monitors driver attention. Mine--a '22 model--has a cabin camera, but it's the older model that doesn't support enough of what machine vision needs for this task. The "may" language here strikes me as awfully sus; it could mean "only the 2023 model and up," but if it were actually that consistent, why not SAY that?

 

[wackazoa]

Absolutely not. Once again, since apparently you also have problems reading or understanding this: the fact that there is an official Part 573 Safety Recall Notice means this is an official safety recall. There is a safety defect, the public needs to be notified about that, and there has to be a fix in the works. No amount of "I love my Tesla" or "$TSLA went up again today, yay" will obviate any of what I just wrote.

Can I just say that you sir, have been on fire in the comments the last few articles you have written.

 

[wackazoa]

My Forester uses a torque sensor as well. And what annoys me about it is that I'm happily driving along using EyeSight, with both hands on the bottom of the steering wheel, but not supplying any torque - and the damn thing keeps complaining that I need to have my hands on the wheel. So every so often I have to tweak the steering wheel to keep it happy.

Of course I'm not stupid enough to hang a water bottle off my steering wheel. Partly because I know that EyeSight does fail under differing circumstances. But I accept those limitations while happily resting my arm muscles on long drives.

I turned the steering keeper off in my Crosstrek. It kept adjusting the wheel as I was turning in curves because I guess I get to close to the lines (sometimes in curves I use a more racing line that "hugs" the inside line to closely). I thought that was dangerous because I was in the act of using the wheel when it would stiffen up. I could see the benefit on long straight aways maybe but even then it goes to far towards the line before it corrects, so you get the look of being a drunk driver.

I will say however the Eyesight cruise control is amazing. 1st time I used it, I didnt realize it slowed the car to keep distance, so I was getting passed on the interstate and looked at the speedometer to notice I was going 50 behind the semi I was following. Actually does nice on long drives when I dont want to keep my foot on the accelerator.

 

[noraar]

We're never going to agree. I get that it's a recall, a legal process. The point is that the legal process of a recall and the general meaning of the word (to order something be returned to a place) are not aligned, and therefore the use of the word can cause confusion. Which it has here - when I read the title I assumed it meant that Teslas had to be physically returned for repair. Yes, the article explained that's not the case, I fully understand that. But think how often to articles get shared and people only read the title - very often.

I would say that's ultimately a good thing. If this issue was only being treated as a simple software update, the vast majority of people wouldn't think twice about it (or even ignore it). By the NHTSA using their legal power to issue an official recall, even if it causes some confusion with people, it brings the issue to the forefront and makes Tesla owners actively seek out information on what this recall entails.

The fact that it is just a software update does not change the fact that this is an official, legally enforceable, recall.

 

[noraar]

It's quite ironic that you're taking a hard stance on the use of the word 'recall,' insisting on a rigid definition by the NHTSA, when the entire controversy itself stems from semantic debate—specifically, the interpretation of the word 'autopilot.' It seems counterintuitive to critique someone for discussing the semantics of 'recall' when the semantics of 'autopilot' are exactly what sparked the discussion. By belittling the first person's perspective on what constitutes a recall, you're inadvertently highlighting the importance of language and interpretation in regulatory contexts, which is the very essence of the controversy at hand.

I'm not taking a hard stance, I'm just pointing out the facts. The NHTSA issued an official recall - this isn't an arguable point. NHSTA has a well known, well documented, legally binding definition of a recall - that also isn't an arguable point. I'm neither arguing for or against NHSTA's definition of a recall, I am simply pointing out that, regardless of how other people perceive what a car recall is, what the NHSTA has done here is issue an official recall - another point that is not arguable.

Your's and other's inability to recognize these facts is just kinda weird.

As for the semantics around autopilot, that is an entirely different beast. There is no legally enforceable definition of autopilot. People will interpret that word differently based on their own experiences and biases. As such, it is up to the manufacturer to clearly and prominently define what autopilot is. Unfortunately, in this case, Tesla has been entirely unclear what autopilot is capable of, sending out many mixed messages. In official documentation it is described merely as a driver assist feature, whereas Elon Musk has publicly described it as a full self-driving mode. Hopefully you can recognize how this has lead to confusion among consumers.

Seeing as how the word 'recall' has become a battleground for semantics just like 'autopilot,' it's clear the issue isn't dead—just evolving. When a term can get twisted to label Elon as everything up to a Nazi, that's my cue. (I mean come on... I know you guys hate the guy, but really? I fucking hated it when I had to defend Bill Gates when people were making up all sorts of bullshit about him during the pandemic, don't make me defend another guy that's also much better off than we'll all ever be.) The horse isn't just alive; it's kicking. So, I'll keep at it, not to beat it into soup but to make sure we're not cooking up a storm with the wrong ingredients. If 'recall' can be a one-size-fits-all for NHTSA but not for forum warriors, then the irony is too rich to ignore, and that's worth hammering on about.

There is no battleground around the word recall. As I have (and a plethora of others have) pointed out time and time again, the term recall is legally defined by the NHTSA, and this situation is indeed a recall even if it is a simple software update. The battleground around the term is purely people being unwilling to accept this very basic, and very simple fact.

 

[Jim Salter]

I own a Tesla, and Jonathan tore me a new one because I explained that yes, I do in fact think there is legitimate confusion over what "recall" means. Am I a "supporter," a "critic," or "neutral" in this graph?

I've been pretty aggro a few times in this thread, including firing right back at Jonathan with curse words... But I'm not at all upset about this being called a "recall," because IF you genuinely understand what the term means, it genuinely is a recall. So, am I a "0" for agreeing it's a recall, or a "100" because I got so pissed off I cursed directly at an actual moderator?

I don't need you to answer any of that, I'm just hoping to help you realize why you might find that graph helpful for you, but why nobody else here is likely to.

It occurs to me that I should have demanded the answers to those questions, because Kamus has absolutely no idea how the model he's feeding prompts to decided those things, and he's not going to be able to get it to answer accurately either.

"Fuck IDK it's based on the model's gut feelings lol"

 

[Sangheili1]

My Forester uses a torque sensor as well. And what annoys me about it is that I'm happily driving along using EyeSight, with both hands on the bottom of the steering wheel, but not supplying any torque - and the damn thing keeps complaining that I need to have my hands on the wheel. So every so often I have to tweak the steering wheel to keep it happy.

Of course I'm not stupid enough to hang a water bottle off my steering wheel. Partly because I know that EyeSight does fail under differing circumstances. But I accept those limitations while happily resting my arm muscles on long drives.

I don't even have a snart car yet I drive with my feet thanks to small honda accord. Who needs a weighted water bottle when your knee can do the job. I would be less concerned of hands not on wheel and more concerned of people not paying attention while driving.

For example I work night shift so there usally 1 to 6 cars on the road where I'm at.

I wish it was location and traffic based because in cities I could see the requirements but in rural highway with almost no traffic, it should be more relaxed

 

[Random_stranger]

That was my experience last year, but this year it’s been good for me.

Gotta love how you never know how your car will behave on a given day, since there might have been an update..

 

[Reviewer3]

It occurs to me that I should have demanded the answers to those questions, because Kamus has absolutely no idea how the model he's feeding prompts to decided those things, and he's not going to be able to get it to answer accurately either.

"Fuck IDK it's based on the model's gut feelings lol"

Maybe he should just share the prompts he's using instead of spamming the discussion with a bunch of computer-generated word salad and expecting other people to wade through that gibberish. If the prompts capture the essence of what he's trying to say, then they should communicate his points just fine.

 

[Random_stranger]

But an OTA-fixable safety issue is way less severe than a safety issue that requires bring the car somewhere....if you're so self-absorbed that your only metric is how much of an inconvenience it is to yourself to fix that issue. How many other people are harmed by it doesn't factor in at all in that case.

Assuming the OTA fix is available in a reasonable time. What if (for argument's sake), Tesla can't come up with a fix for 6 months. Is the fact that it's "OTA fixable" still way less severe? What if 100 more people die in those 6 months due to faulty autopilot/autosteer/TACC/FSD/<We can't use normal names for things like everyone else>?

 

[sxotty]

I have a Rivian because essentially I wanted an EV that was like a Tesla, but not a Tesla.

I would say 0-60 in 3secs with a 7500lbs car is stupid fast.

No jump seats though, but the R1S seats plenty if that's your need.

It checks all boxes but cost is too much for me. I have 3 kids so a model y would work and is much cheaper yet still has jump seats available. That is why I like them (jump seats) you get a smaller cheaper car that is more efficient while being able to accommodate unusual circumstances. The Mitsubishi outlander phev is the only other similar option, but with two cars I want an electric not a phev.

Rivian is fairly small so I'm also leery about their support going forward. Tesla has sold so many model ys another company would support them if Tesla did not. Rivian and frankly many legacy automakers sell few enough electrics that I worry about their support level. I'm happy you got one though. We need more players in the market. Hopefully the r2s is similar to what I am describing. It would still be a risk in terms of whether rivian will be around in 10 years, but at least only that. I would happily purchase an electric van or something like that as well, but I don't need a huge vehicle. Canoo could have been that company as well, but they're struggling.

 

[chalex]

Nope. The only thing it gives a shit about is me constantly tugging on the wheel hard enough to placate it, but not the infinitesimal amount harder that disengages it.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-101D1BF5-52D2-469A-A57D-E7230BBEE94B.html
Note: model 3 may include a camera that monitors driver attention. Mine--a '22 model--has a cabin camera, but it's the older model that doesn't support enough of what machine vision needs for this task. The "may" language here strikes me as awfully sus; it could mean "only the 2023 model and up," but if it were actually that consistent, why not SAY that?

Hm, I believe you, but that is odd. What happens if you scroll either scroll wheel up and down a click? Or is tugging the wheel left or right really the only thing that works in your model car?

edit: also, mine is a 2020 Model Y and I'm pretty sure it does the camera monitoring because the behavior is noticeably different depending on which way I look and for how long. But also I wear glasses, so that's another factor.

 

[AgentEasy]

Hahahaha

Also the torque sensor for hand presence is stupid and everyone who disagrees with me is wrong. It's easily defeated AND falsely accuses drivers of not having their hand on the wheel so it fails in both directions.

Except to at least four people who couldn't wait to show the rest of us how they failed at reading comprehension. I am quite sure they won't be the last, either.

I agree that the word “recall” is correctly used in this instance, but it’s also fair to say that it’s a word whose meaning has been distorted by circumstance. It was initially used to because it‘s meaning applied exactly (you had to bring the thing back), and now it still gets used but doesn’t mean that at all. Kind of like how people still refer to a band’s “albums” despite the age of digital.

it’s funny how words sometimes get phased out when they no longer apply, and others stick around despite the fact that their meaning cease to make sense.

anyway, what Tesla is doing is a recall.

 

[Jim Salter]

Gotta love how you never know how your car will behave on a given day, since there might have been an update..

I am, as a professional and very infosec-aware senior sysadmin, VERY focused on applying updates, not sandbagging them. But God damn it's tempting to sandbag the OTA Tesla updates, because in the couple years I've had the car, they've added one feature I actually liked, fixed zero bugs that affected me, and markedly decreased my satisfaction with the interface while introducing less reliability.

When I bought the car, emergency autosteer did not try to pancake me into heavy trucks on Huger St. After a particular update this year, it began trying to hijack control and force me into the left lane whether it was occupied or not, EVERY time I drive that street past a particular intersection. There's nothing there I can even identify as likely to be problematic--no very heavy shadow, jut-out from the curb, etc. I had to disable emergency autosteer entirely after that.

So, yeah, I still apply the damn things. But I have a very uneasy feeling about it every time now.

 

[Jim Salter]

Maybe he should just share the prompts he's using instead of spamming the discussion with a bunch of computer-generated word salad and expecting other people to wade through that gibberish. If the prompts capture the essence of what he's trying to say, then they should communicate his points just fine.

If we all communicated that way, I bet it would look a lot like that "Dharmak and Jalad at Tenagra" episode of ST:TNG.

 

[Jim Salter]

Hm, I believe you, but that is odd. What happens if you scroll either scroll wheel up and down a click? Or is tugging the wheel left or right really the only thing that works in your model car?

Periodically dicking around with the right scroll works, but from what I remember last time I tested autopilot, messing with the left does not. So instead of uselessly and carefully tugging your steering wheel, you can also uselessly and carefully change your speed and/or follow distance.

Not ideal.

I might not be remembering correctly that the left scroll did not work. Maybe it does. I don't want to constantly be turning the volume up and down or bumping tracks back and forth to "indicate my attention to the road" either, for a MULTITUDE of reasons.

 

[numerobis]

Gotta love how you never know how your car will behave on a given day, since there might have been an update..

Sort of like my phone, except a bit more potentially lethal.

To be fair generally the software gets better. The two main improvements: now I get side-camera views easily visible when my blinker is on, which is a huge cyclist safety improvement (and also handy for avoiding turning into cars). And the range estimator when I plug in a destination is pretty accurate, whereas before it was basically bogus. But definitely not universally so: The main downside is when they turned off the radar, which is hot bullshit.

 

[doug r]

Its a total recall
View attachment 69848

I can't believe it took 12 pages for someone to post this.

 

[chalex]

Periodically dicking around with the right scroll works, but from what I remember last time I tested autopilot, messing with the left does not. So instead of uselessly and carefully tugging your steering wheel, you can also uselessly and carefully change your speed and/or follow distance.

Not ideal.

I might not be remembering correctly that the left scroll did not work. Maybe it does. I don't want to constantly be turning the volume up and down or bumping tracks back and forth to "indicate my attention to the road" either, for a MULTITUDE of reasons.

It's not clear to me what would make you happy.

I rate your post 300 millizeus.

 

[Jim Salter]

It's not clear to me what would make you happy.

I rate your post 300 millizeus.

I've been very clear what would make me happy: get rid of the not only useless but actively counterproductive wheel sensor entirely, and simply track driver attention via machine vision.

Hands don't need to be on the wheel at all times for safe supervision of even a blecherous L2 assist like Autopilot: the driver just needs to be in the driver's seat and aware, neither of which the torque sensor is any good at guaranteeing or even reliably detecting.

 

[Reviewer3]

The term recall in this context means "to call back". Since the car is not actually called back to the dealership to be serviced, how can this be a recall? Reading the title that's what I understood will happen. Which seemed strange for a software update, but not completely implausible.

Yes, I understand we have no other better word to use for this particular situation, but that doesn't make it less confusing. If it wasn't confusing, the author wouldn't have felt the need to mention this at the end of the article.

According to the Collins English dictionary:



Also, before anyone accuses me of being a fan of Tesla or Musk, I don't own or intend to buy a Tesla, mainly due to Musk's behavior in the last few years.

There are six different federal agencies contributing to recalls.gov. Motor vehicles are only one of the categories. The term recall means that the producer is recalling the product from the marketplace. It can no longer be sold and customers should be warned not to use it. For categories like food, cosmetics, and medicine, the products are generally trashed and purchases refunded. It's only the higher value items (e.g. cars, boats, appliances, exercise equipment, furniture) where it makes economic sense to try to fix them to make them safe to continue to use and sell.

Again, your car is not being "called back" to the dealership. The car model -- in its current, unsafe form -- is being called back (pulled) from the marketplace. That this often results in a trip to the dealership for a correction is pure coincidence.

 

[jock2nerd]

More important than the type of recall is what it is for. Tesla is admitting that allowing people to halfass monitor the car is unsafe. They absolutely need to monitor the human monitoring the car.

They aren't admitting anything of the sort. They are being forced to do it by the NTSB

 

[1FX]

My believe is less use of Autopilot will result in more deaths and more injuries.

There is no evidence to support this.

...just sayin...

 

[Jim Salter]

There is no evidence to support this.

...just sayin...

Sure there is, you just need to go about a yard deep up the nearest musk stan's butt to find it.

 

[eldakka]

No I’m arguing it’s more akin to computer software. If some software has a security bug or some other flaw it gets a patch to fix it. I would consider this pretty much the same thing.

I know this is a bit late, but I just couldn't let this go on reading this stupidity.

This defect has the potential to kill people you fucking moron. And not just the driver of the Tesla, but passengers in that Tesla and everyone else on - or near- the road who did not pay to be part of fuckwit's Beta program. So you better be fucking sure that you have had the defect repaired before you activate the system. If you are in an accident using Autopilot that is under an active recall notice, well, your ass is fucked, because no insurance will cover you (using a feature under a recall notice would be slam-dunk not covered by insurance), and if it involves any damage or harm to other people, you can bet you'd be subject to criminal charges due to 'reckless endangerment' in using a feature known to be under recall no matter how the defect is actually repaired.

 

[chalex]

I know this is a bit late, but I just couldn't let this go on reading this stupidity.

This defect has the potential to kill people you fucking moron. And not just the driver of the Tesla, but passengers in that Tesla and everyone else on - or near- the road who did not pay to be part of fuckwit's Beta program. So you better be fucking sure that you have had the defect repaired before you activate the system. If you are in an accident using Autopilot that is under an active recall notice, well, your ass is fucked, because no insurance will cover you (using a feature under a recall notice would be slam-dunk not covered by insurance), and if it involves any damage or harm to other people, you can bet you'd be subject to criminal charges due to 'reckless endangerment' in using a feature known to be under recall no matter how the defect is actually repaired.

Yeah, I dunno, there is some kind of basic philosophical misunderstanding here. Plenty of people crash and kill other people without involving any assistive technology. (around 40k deaths so far this year).
Your argument seems be based around the idea that a human driver plus the assistive technology is somehow worse than a human driver without any assistive technology. Which I think is just plain false. The assistive technology makes up for many faults of the human driver.

 

[SweepHand]

There are six different federal agencies contributing to recalls.gov. Motor vehicles are only one of the categories. The term recall means that the producer is recalling the product from the marketplace. It can no longer be sold and customers should be warned not to use it. For categories like food, cosmetics, and medicine, the products are generally trashed and purchases refunded. It's only the higher value items (e.g. cars, boats, appliances, exercise equipment, furniture) where it makes economic sense to try to fix them to make them safe to continue to use and sell.

Again, your car is not being "called back" to the dealership. The car model -- in its current, unsafe form -- is being called back (pulled) from the marketplace. That this often results in a trip to the dealership for a correction is pure coincidence.

THANK YOU for this! I was beginning to lose hope that anyone on this (quite long) thread understood that the "recall" being discussed is from the market, not back to the manufacturer. Whether that product returns to the market after its defects have been corrected and how those corrections may be accomplished have nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that it has been deemed unfit for the market in its current condition.

 

[ScottTFrazer]

Yeah, I dunno, there is some kind of basic philosophical misunderstanding here. Plenty of people crash and kill other people without involving any assistive technology. (around 40k deaths so far this year).
Your argument seems be based around the idea that a human driver plus the assistive technology is somehow worse than a human driver without any assistive technology. Which I think is just plain false. The assistive technology makes up for many faults of the human driver.

That's a blanket statement that ignores the specifics of exactly what the assistive tech is doing and how that is implemented.

We've got plenty of examples of people complaining about Tesla's specific implementation of this tech, and we've seen that TFG has decided that many sensors other carmakers use aren't necessary because "humans only have 2 eyes"

If the assistive tech is bad AND it lulls the driver into a false sense of security, it could absolutely cause more accidents than not having it

 

[chalex]

If the assistive tech is bad AND it lulls the driver into a false sense of security, it could absolutely cause more accidents than not having it

Yes, IF, and IF, and COULD, but most of the arguments in this thread are about "forcing people to pay attention" where in a non-assisted car there is no mechanism whatsoever to force someone to pay attention at all. How is that better?

 

[ScottTFrazer]

Yes, IF, and IF, and COULD, but most of the arguments in this thread are about "forcing people to pay attention" where in a non-assisted car there is no mechanism whatsoever to force someone to pay attention at all. How is that better?

There's nothing that prevents a car company from putting attention-detecting sensors in cars without driver-assist technology...

Even so, your argument appears to be: no matter how poorly implemented the driver assist / attention detection system is, it could never be worse than a car that doesn't have these technologies. I reject that premise entirely. It's totally possible to make things worse if poorly implemented. A system that requires you to move/put unusual downward force on the steering wheel? That's worse than my non-assisted car. It will fatigue the driver faster and make them less safe.

The conversation happening in this thread is: Does Tesla's implementation suck enough to be a problem? The NHTSA says: yes. And Tesla agrees (or just chose not to fight it) and issued a recall to update these systems

 

[chalex]

The conversation happening in this thread is: Does Tesla's implementation suck enough to be a problem? The NHTSA says: yes. And Tesla agrees (or just chose not to fight it) and issued a recall to update these systems

I think like you say, the devil is in the details. What exact detail does the "update" change and how? Since your description of how it currently works is incorrect ("A system that requires you to move/put unusual downward force on the steering wheel?") I'm not sure you understand what is changing and how.

Here is the actual description of the changes: https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-firmware-prevent-autosteer-misuse

The language is a bit vague; if you don't own the car are are not familiar with how it currently beeps at you, it's hard to describe how the beeps will be different.

"Depending on vehicle hardware, the additional controls will include, among others, increasing the prominence of visual alerts on the user interface..."
Basically it will show more warnings to use it correctly than before.

 

[ScottTFrazer]

I think like you say, the devil is in the details. What exact detail does the "update" change and how? Since your description of how it currently works is incorrect ("A system that requires you to move/put unusual downward force on the steering wheel?") I'm not sure you understand what is changing and how.

Here is the actual description of the changes: https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-firmware-prevent-autosteer-misuse

The language is a bit vague; if you don't own the car are are not familiar with how it currently beeps at you, it's hard to describe how the beeps will be different.

"Depending on vehicle hardware, the additional controls will include, among others, increasing the prominence of visual alerts on the user interface..."
Basically it will show more warnings to use it correctly than before.

You are correct that I do not own a Tesla. But if you read this thread all the way through you've surely seen comments from people who do? Here's one in case you missed it: https://meincmagazine.com/civis/threa...unsafe-autopilot.1497683/page-3#post-42431734

I disabled autopilot in my model 3 entirely (TACC-only, it just beeps angrily if you try to engage full autopilot) but when I was testing it, I found it pretty difficult to walk the line between "it thinks your hand isn't on the wheel" and "it thinks you took over, because you turned the wheel too far."

The most reliable way I found to keep the thing on was to NOT put my hands on the wheel, and to deliberately reach up and tug the wheel a tiny amount whenever it beeped at me and NOT having my hands on the wheel (a several minute interval, usually).

That sounds like a system that makes the driver less safe, no?

And if these changes do not substantially change the number of people becoming involved in crashes with Tesla's Autopilot engaged, do you think the NHTSA will simply shrug and say "well, we tried?"

Edit: Oh, you've already directly replied to Jim about the torque sensor. So you know that what I'm saying isn't incorrect. Cool.

https://meincmagazine.com/civis/threa...unsafe-autopilot.1497683/page-7#post-42432574

 

[chalex]

It's just a weird online world these days where you have two people posting online and one uses a tech feature successfully every day for years and the other says "this feature is unusuable, it doesn't work at all" and it's not really obvious what the problem is.
I would say the description

"
when I was testing it, I found it pretty difficult to walk the line between "it thinks your hand isn't on the wheel" and "it thinks you took over, because you turned the wheel too far."

The most reliable way I found to keep the thing on was to NOT put my hands on the wheel, and to deliberately reach up and tug the wheel a tiny amount whenever it beeped at me and NOT having my hands on the wheel (a several minute interval, usually)."

is not a typical experience or perhaps even a mischaraterization of how it works.

But anyway, I would say the car with autopilot enabled but annoying wheel behavior is more safe than less safe. It's not going to let you drive into the car in front of you, it will prevent you from accidentally leaving the lane, it will keep speed with traffic, etc.

So in this case I really wonder whether my Tesla is common and regular and Jim Salter got a lemon unit with a malfunctioning torque sensor or something.
Also note that Jim can just click the scroll wheel up and down and not have to tug on the wheel, but he says he doesn't want to do that for "NUMEROUS" reasons.