More than 2 million Teslas are being recalled due to unsafe Autopilot

Inadequate driver monitoring means that Autopilot is far too easily misused.

See full article...

 

[deadman12-4]

This is called eugenics and is one of the more monstrous ideas humans have conceived of.

I find it scary but not surprising that musk stans are promoting eugenics

 

[pjcamp]

I continue to fail to understand how Tesla gets to ignore the law on human subjects research.

 

[msawzall]

I continue to fail to understand how Tesla gets to ignore the law on human subjects research.

The magical combination of money and influence.

 

[numerobis]

I can picture Elon just updating to change the version number and that's it. He'll probably change it to v*.69 or v*.420. Just so he can get lulz from his stans.

Currently it’s 2023.26.9 so there is a 69 in there. But I haven’t noticed any games in the version number so I suspect it’s a coincidence. They put out new versions quite often.

 

[Slartibart_II]

They should also recall all cars with cruise control then, those have no driver monitoring at all.

If you filed a complaint to the NHTSA that the cruise control in your car don't have a driver monitoring system, they'd file a recall for your your drivers license.

 

[Dr Gitlin]

And I'm dismayed that despite my literal decades on this site and my couple of years working here full time, AND the sheer volume of "Tesla sucks, let me explain why as someone who regretfully owns one" posts I make, you're STILL determinedly claiming that I've got some pro-Tesla ulterior motive for pointing out that the word is confusing.

What the fuck, Jonathan? It's not like you and I were ever tight, but how the hell can you not see I'm literally saying that this IS a recall, but that the terminology is confusing?

If people are confused about the safety recall process then it’s my job to correct that confusion. How a fix is accomplished is irrelevant to the fact that there’s a safety recall. If that sounds like a “welll ackshually…” then it sure is, and Ars has trafficked in correcting peoples’ erroneous notions about stuff since its inception.

It does no one but Elon Musk and Tesla shareholders a service to minimize this. And as software-defined vehicles become more common across other OEMs there’s even more reason for people to understand it.

 

[deadman12-4]

An intriguing paradox emerges within the current discussions. Individuals express frustration over the inaccurate assertion that the recent situation is not a recall when, in fact, it unequivocally meets the criteria for one.

Simultaneously, these individuals exhibit a parallel disquietude with Tesla's nomenclature choice of "autopilot" for its driving assist technology, citing concerns about its potential to mislead. It is essential to recognize the underlying irony in this juxtaposition.

When considering the layperson's perception of a recall, there is a prevailing association with a physical resolution at a dealership. Consequently, it becomes noteworthy that some express discontent with those who claim, "well, it's not really a recall." This juxtaposition raises a pertinent point: the frustration surrounding the label "autopilot" stems from concerns about misinterpretation by the layperson, creating an ironic parallel when juxtaposed against the resistance to labeling the situation as a recall, despite the unconventional software-centric resolution pathway offered by Tesla.

TL;DR: Yes, this is a recall. But because this is Tesla, this recall is just an OTA update. The lay person usually associates recalls with a visit to the dealership, making it sound a lot worse than it is in this case. So the layperson can be forgiven for saying: "well, it's not really a recall" even if it technically is.

Think about it:
You are getting tilted because Tesla is being misleading with the name "autopilot" which is fair enough.

But at the same time, you are getting tilted by people not calling this a recall, even though the vehicle is not being "recalled" anywhere, this is literally just an OTA update, the car isn't being physically recalled anywhere. Making the word itself misleading, official or not.

thats alot of words to say people are wrong for calling this what it legally is - a recall.
Yes a recall. More salty tears please.

Edit: I would like to point out that you are defending a nazi sympathizer. No more than that, he openly promotes nazis and othe reich wing monsters. He gives them voice on twitter. There may not be a video clip where he openly states his membership of the nazi party, but he is there anyways.

 

[Flipper35]

It is named "Autopilot".

Yes it is, and it is a different package than full self driving.

 

[Jim Salter]

The problem is you are conflating the mechanism of the fix with the requirement of the fix. A recall is a something that has legal repercussions (But IANAL so I don't know what the details are). How the work performed during a recall is independent of the recall itself (as was pointed out in TFA).

The solution to your argument would be to split the process into two things:



and



Now imagine the additional confusion that would cause.

Why would you need two different terms? My argument is that you DON'T need separate terms, but it would be very nice if the single term that covered both sides didn't seem dumb on one of them, because the term was named after a mechanism that doesn't apply.

A "recall" fixed by OTA update is every bit as important as one fixed by any other means, I just think it would make more sense to refer to both the same way and use an additional term if necessary to warn of severity.

Again: I am NOT saying these are not "real" recalls, or should be handled differently from other recalls, or are less important. Only that I 100% get why people who don't live and breathe the automotive industry are confused by the terminology.

 

[Dooderoo]

Most recalled car brand.

 

[mmiller7]

Do any of those cars make the claim that the car can drive itself? Like Tesla and Musk have repeatedly?


The problem is less the capability of the system and more the claimed capability of the system. Cruise control has never claimed to do anything other than maintain speed.

Also if there's one thing humans are REALLY bad at, its maintaining full attentiveness and awareness when they aren't engaged in an activity.

If its mostly working to the point the driver isn't having to regularly take over...then they are just sitting there and not in the decision loops. Which means they will have a progressively harder time staying alert and aware to take over, and progressively more likely to become distracted (whether by something inside or outside the vehicle.

With regular old cruise control you are still actively making all the decisions for steering, braking, lane changes, following distance, hazard-avoidance, changes in speed limits, and everything else...it isn't doing anything but accelerating when your speed drops below a setpoint.

I know I find that I stay most alert and aware when there is light traffic, enough that I am performing regular lane changes...and its most exhausting when either heavy city (too much to manage at once) or totally-empty-nothing roads when you start to get highway hypnosis because you're just going straight not thinking.

 

[Bad Monkey!]

I think that last point is a good one because crying "but it's OTA" doesn't cover it. If a Tesla owner moves way out into the woods with no data reception to send them the OTA update Tesla is still obligated to fix their car even if that means sending them a physical update via a USB drive or arranging to bring the car to a service center or send a technician. OTA may be part of the recall but it is not the totality of it

To put it in the parlance of our times, a recall means Tesla isn't allowed to just skeet an OTA out into the ether and call it a job well done.

 

[doug r]

Only 19 days until FSD!

Only 19 days until FSD!

Then you missed my point. Microsoft could call it a recall if they wanted to because it is, but they're not required to call it that by regulatory authority so they don't because software as a product remains an odd duck in the industry. Pretty much any other product, especially anything physical the same types of defect are a recall full stop. Software products are the odd duck here and not the gold standard you seem to think.

Our entire industry is the odd duck or exception to the rule from how it's sold to how it's developed and accredited compared to other engineering disciplines. A bridge collapse and someone's getting their license pulled and possibly facing criminal charges, a software defect deletes all a companies records and it's lol whatever hope you had a backup. We're the odd ones out on safety and accountability.

It's in the EULA™

Edit: Sorry everyone, can't find how to delete previous attempts.

 

[stk5]

This is why I come to Ars... "What do words mean?"

Such vitriol. Is that really in the spirit of this month, the tenth month of the year?

 

[kevincairo]

Yes, it's a "recall" in NHTSA's terminology. I think putting that word in the headline is dubious, though. People skimming the day's headlines shouldn't be expected to understand the ins and outs of auto industry jargon. It's better to keep the headline in plain language for the layman, and then explain the technical terms in the body.

The significance of a safety recall is on the safety, not the recall. The headline reads “there’s a safety risk to be addressed,” not “Tesla owners are being inconvenienced.”

 

[mmiller7]

I might respectfully argue that "recall" intrinsically makes sense when the car is literally being RECALLED into a dealership for safety fixes, but it's a confusing anachronism when the fix is applied OTA with zero involvement of even the customer, let alone a dealership garage.

I think this is a fairly similar issue to the "save" icon. It used to make sense to refer to that visually with a floppy disk, but now it's just weird and an awful lot of people have no idea why we would refer to saving with a weird little square icon with a circle in it.

I'm not sure off the top of my head what a better term would be, but I have to agree about calling OTA updates a "recall" being somewhat confusing.

edit: I want to make it EXTREMELY clear that this isn't Jonathan's job to use better terminology. This terminology sucks, but it's the OFFICIAL terminology and it's up to the NHTSA to change it; until then, we're stuck with Jonathan repeatedly explaining it and readers repeatedly getting it wrong.

Why do you think that has to be taken to a dealership?

We've had cars that have zero connectivity but got recalls for things which could be self-repaired. My Grandparents had a car which was recalled because they failed to meet the airbag safety warning notifications, and the "fix" was they mailed you a few stickers and a diagram saying where to stick them. My parents had a car that was recalled due to missing warnings in the owner's manual and the "fix" was they mailed a page sized sticker to affix over the old owner's manual page with updated information.

This seems very similar to those. You go and hit "install update" button and its fixed.

 

[Keith Tanner]

I had one with the torque sensor. If I was using Autopilot, I had to periodically jerk the car to one side or the other. Otherwise, it would harass me about hands on the wheel. It's a poor mechanism since it requires me to actually alter the car's direction whenever its timer goes off.

I've tried Autosteer enough to get a feel for how much torque you need to apply. You don't need to alter the car's direction, just lean up against the resistance of the car's steering. Having one hand on the side of the wheel if there are curves in the road seems to be enough - which is exactly what it's trying to encourage. The fact that apparently many people can't manage to keep it happy without jerking the car in the lane is an indication that it's a poor way to do things.

Of course, any system will be defeatable. Some with ridiculous stunts (will anyone ever go to the trouble of putting a stuffed bear in the driver's seat once they've engaged Autosteer, given how they'll have to swap places with the bear again as soon as it's time to change lanes or exit or do anything?), some with more clever hacks. Apple seems to have figured out a fairly robust system for unlocking an iPhone from what I can see, maybe Tesla needs to talk to their engineers and/or licensing team.

Or just dial Autosteer back so that it becomes normal lane centering and not strong enough to actually drive the car for an extended period. Since Autosteer has always been called a beta feature, this seems like a plausible option.

 

[Cuzoe]

Not at all to compare overall systems, but my VW with "Travel Assist" has touch sensors in the steering wheel. The previous lane assist system relied on applying torque to the steering wheel. There's obviously a cost associated with a touch detection system but it solves the torque the wheel problem and does so reliably.

 

[FreeRangeOrganicSoyLatteCappuccino]

And I'm dismayed

This is a dumb argument to lose a friend over.

Pick up the phone and talk. People always interpret text in the worst possible manner.

 

[That Usually Works]

An intriguing paradox emerges within the current discussions. Individuals express frustration over the inaccurate assertion that the recent situation is not a recall when, in fact, it unequivocally meets the criteria for one.

Simultaneously, these individuals exhibit a parallel disquietude with Tesla's nomenclature choice of "autopilot" for its driving assist technology, citing concerns about its potential to mislead. It is essential to recognize the underlying irony in this juxtaposition.

When considering the layperson's perception of a recall, there is a prevailing association with a physical resolution at a dealership. Consequently, it becomes noteworthy that some express discontent with those who claim, "well, it's not really a recall." This juxtaposition raises a pertinent point: the frustration surrounding the label "autopilot" stems from concerns about misinterpretation by the layperson, creating an ironic parallel when juxtaposed against the resistance to labeling the situation as a recall, despite the unconventional software-centric resolution pathway offered by Tesla.

TL;DR: Yes, this is a recall. But because this is Tesla, this recall is just an OTA update. The lay person usually associates recalls with a visit to the dealership, making it sound a lot worse than it is in this case. So the layperson can be forgiven for saying: "well, it's not really a recall" even if it technically is.

Think about it:
You are getting tilted because Tesla is being misleading with the name "autopilot" which is fair enough.

But at the same time, you are getting tilted by people not calling this a recall, even though the vehicle is not being "recalled" anywhere, this is literally just an OTA update, the car isn't being physically recalled anywhere. Making the word itself misleading, official or not.

Maybe I too should use a verbose LLM to generate my posts

 

[MagicDot]

Let this "auto pilot" saga be a warning to anyone who thinks fondly of Elon Musk and is considering being part of a future human trial for Neuralink. In his mind you are an expendable data point.

 

[RammyBodger]

I would be happy to have a better driver monitoring system in my Model X. Right now, I occasionally get beeping alerts when the system freaks out over something, despite: 1. having my hands on the wheel, 2. looking down the road, and 3. not having any other distractions around except for the action on the road. My sin in those cases was almost always not doing enough to nudge the car off the lane it has been accurately picking for the last ten miles down the highway, and not noticing the gentle white pulsing at the edge of the instrument cluster. If the car had a Super Cruise style ability to see that I was, in fact, paying attention, it wouldn't have to bug me.

It would also stop the assholes I see driving their Teslas with one hand draped over the wheel and their other one holding the phone that they are fully head down and using.

Unfortunately my car predates the interior camera that would be needed to do this, and I'm going to be very surprised if anything short of a NHTSA order results in them actually adding the necessary hardware to do it.

The system itself (AP, EAP, FSD, whatever you call it) otherwise works fantastically on the highway. In town it's still terrifyingly bad, despite genuinely amazing progress in the quality of the software.

 

[Jim Salter]

Hey Elon stans... If it's not false advertising to say Teslas have an autopilot, it's not a false statement to say this is a recall. Freeze peach, baby!

Calling lanekeeping "autopilot" is confusing at best: despite being technically not that far off from maritime or aviation autopilot, most people think automotive and maritime "autopilot" is essentially autonomous, so it's a terrible and misleading name.

Calling the thing you have to pay $15K more for "full self driving" is even worse, and I would argue is downright fraudulent. I think Musk should have been hit with real sanctions and forced to change that name.

It is not a false statement to call this a recall. It IS a recall in the sense understood by people who understand the industry... Which, much like the common misunderstanding of what an "autopilot" really is and was long before Tesla appropriated the term, is misleading to people who AREN'T intimately familiar with that context and are mostly working out the meaning from etymology.

I'm for better language on all sides, here, with the notable caveat that there's only one side I've said should have actually been sanctioned, and that side is emphatically NOT the NHTSA. And, again, unless and until the NHTSA itself decides to change the term, I'm saying that we still SHOULD be saying "recall" but that we're going to have to keep explaining it over and over to people, many of whom will never get it, in much the same way that many people who don't live and breathe Tesla stuff and have never used a marine or aviation autopilot system will continue to misunderstand what "autopilot" is.

 

[the_frakker]

I drove thousands of miles this year in my Model 3 and have only used the cruise control aspect for a few hundred of those miles. I mostly don’t use AutoSteer or FSD because I don’t trust it. I have used them very limited where I felt safe to give it a try. I did experience phantom breaking a couple times when using AutoPilot and it’s terrifying. These types of recalls make it hard to even trust the basic cruise control features of my car.

The engineers at Tesla could do better if it weren’t for Musk barking insane demands about how he thinks the cars should work. It’s called “AutoPilot” and “Full Self-Driving” because of Musk. The Tesla board and their investors need to recognize the damages that continue to pile up because of that moron. Boot Musk out with a unanimous vote and get back in this game before Musk drowns the company and its reputation any more.

 

[doug r]

Etymologically speaking, "fat chance" and "slim chance" should have opposite meanings, but they don't. "Awful" and "awesome" should mean the same, but they don't. Etymology explains the origin of words, it does not prescribe their usage.

 

[Jim Salter]

If people are confused about the safety recall process then it’s my job to correct that confusion. How a fix is accomplished is irrelevant to the fact that there’s a safety recall. If that sounds like a “welll ackshually…” then it sure is, and Ars has trafficked in correcting peoples’ erroneous notions about stuff since its inception.

It does no one but Elon Musk and Tesla shareholders a service to minimize this. And as software-defined vehicles become more common across other OEMs there’s even more reason for people to understand it.

Again: I'm not "minimizing" a fucking thing, and I've made that extremely clear. I'm not responding to you "correcting confusion," I'm responding to you and others literally saying that nobody IS confused about it, and EVERYBODY knows exactly what it means.

They do not. Which is why you need to keep correcting the confusion, and might in fact have better results if you were at all willing to RECOGNIZE literal confusion, instead of claiming that there is no confusion, and anyone who pretends otherwise is some kind of operative with an agenda. Yes, operatives with agendas on this absolutely exist. No, for the love of God, I am not one of them, and you should damn well know better.

 

[DarthSlack]

The regulators need to come up with a better term, but for now it is a recall. Tesla, and Elon for that matter, just can't be trusted at this point. They made some really cool cars but the company itself seems like a cesspool. Elon is the reincarnation of the steel, oil, and rail barons of the early 1900s. He lies cheats and steals while producing things....all in the name of power and control. Not to be trusted, and not going to ever get my money.

Why do regulators need to come up with a better term? Recall is well understood and has been used for decades. Replacing "recall" is going to cause more confusion than it solves. Besides, the only people complaining about use of the word "recall" are Tesla fans and they're pushing a very different agenda than the NHTSA.

 

[Vgz]

Elon: Lying liar that lies.

Or more accurately: Eternally Lying Overbearing Nazi

 

[ZenBeam]

Words mean something. People associate the word "recall" as the product being taken back by the manufacturer to address an issue, there is nothing wrong with that, because that's what the word actually means in the context of a product (to take back.)

So just like it's understandable for people to think that autopilot should mean that the car "pilots automatically" when it really is just a driving assist system. It would also be understandable for people to think that a recall means that you had to take the product back to the manufacturer for service, or have the manufacturer take back the product off the market entirely, when in this case, they literally have to take no action.

I'm pointing out the that people here are being a bit hypocritical, and can't see the irony of their outrage towards people calling this "not a recall," even if it the NHTSA officially calls it one.
(So no tears here, I know this is officially a recall, the "crying" is being done by the people tilted by the people not calling it one, just like you. There are no misunderstandings on my end)

No one on this thread complaining about the use of the term "recall" is doing so because they are confused. They are complaining because they think it makes Tesla look bad. Any of them who claim otherwise are lying.

 

[adespoton]

I thought Tesla had a First Amendment right to sell dangerous and defective products?

Their claim is that they have a First Amendment right to market dangerous and defective products. Selling isn't speech. Although software could be considered speech.

 

[Dr Gitlin]

Again: I'm not "minimizing" a fucking thing, and I've made that extremely clear. I'm not responding to you "correcting confusion," I'm responding to you and others literally saying that nobody IS confused about it, and EVERYBODY knows exactly what it means.

They do not. Which is why you need to keep correcting the confusion, and might in fact have better results if you were at all willing to RECOGNIZE literal confusion, instead of claiming that there is no confusion, and anyone who pretends otherwise is some kind of operative with an agenda. Yes, operatives with agendas on this absolutely exist. No, for the love of God, I am not one of them, and you should damn well know better.

I apologize if I misrepresented your position.

 

[ClintFromVa]

I wonder how the accident rate per mile driven compares between Teslas on autopilot and humans? The machine will never be perfect, I hope we don't strangle this technology in the crib because it isn't so. I'd take a 2 or 3x improvement gladly but someone (trial lawyer?) will scream bloody, negligent, murder.

 

[adespoton]

No one on this thread complaining about the use of the term "recall" is doing so because they are confused. They are complaining because they think it makes Tesla look bad. Any of them who claim otherwise are lying.

Well, when I first saw the headline elsewhere, my first thought was "Great! They're finally bringing the Tesla fleet back in to equip them with appropriate hardware!" only to read the details and see it's just a software update.

But this use of the term "recall" is no better or worse than the standard definition, which is analogous to "remember" or the literal meaning, "to call again". And NHTSA has been using "recall" in the same, applicable, manner for... as long as I can recall.

[edit] Have to add the obligatory "Do you recall Tesla Autopilot? Pepperidge Farms recalls!"

 

[fjislc]

I'm not as familiar with Tesla's language so just curious if the features mentioned in here represent the auto-driving function that was viral on YouTube a year or two ago, where Tesla owners weren't even in the car and they could type in an address and the car would drive to that location by itself. There were many videos in Target parking lots and such places. I always felt that was a terrifying feature to let people use so willy-nilly - seems the "autopilot" mentioned in this article are the more common "lane keeping assist" and "auto cruise" that even my Honda had (which wasn't that trustworthy unless in perfect conditions). Is the NHTSB also looking at the aforementioned feature? Curious if that's even still available.