More than 2 million Teslas are being recalled due to unsafe Autopilot

Inadequate driver monitoring means that Autopilot is far too easily misused.

See full article...

 

[Jim Salter]

No one on this thread complaining about the use of the term "recall" is doing so because they are confused. They are complaining because they think it makes Tesla look bad. Any of them who claim otherwise are lying.

I invite you to browse through my post history to see just how interested I am in making Tesla "look good."

 

[Jim Salter]

I apologize if I misrepresented your position.

Thank you, Jonathan. I appreciate it.

 

[blabbermouth]

First post after 8 years. Welcome to Ars.

And since you haven't been keeping up with us all that much, let me suggest that it isn't the role of everyone else to prove or disprove an issue. If you have a problem with a statistic you are free to do some research and, if you are a charitable sort, let the rest of us know what you found.

Thank you.
Long time reader, first time poster...

That's just it - while I could do that I for one feel that's what the reporter is paid for.

 

[Jim Salter]

I'm not as familiar with Tesla's language so just curious if the features mentioned in here represent the auto-driving function that was viral on YouTube a year or two ago, where Tesla owners weren't even in the car and they could type in an address and the car would drive to that location by itself. There were many videos in Target parking lots and such places. I always felt that was a terrifying feature to let people use so willy-nilly - seems the "autopilot" mentioned in this article are the more common "lane keeping assist" and "auto cruise" that even my Honda had (which wasn't that trustworthy unless in perfect conditions). Is the NHTSB also looking at the aforementioned feature? Curious if that's even still available.

That's "summon." It's a part of the FSD package, and it's only intended to get the car out of a parking spot and bring it to the owner who is standing in the same parking lot. It isn't intended to drive anywhere OUTSIDE the parking lot the Tesla was parked in.

It's also egregiously broken, and it's not at all hard to find video clips of people having to hit the panic "STOP YOU DUMB FUCKING CAR" button on their phones when it tries to drive over islands and similar catastrophically stupid mistakes.

 

[Dragonmaster Lou]

As someone with a model 3 and baseline autopilot I’ll say, “Good”.


For me I use it only as a backup to my driving while doing long distance highway driving.

Same, although as an experienced flight simulator gamer and student pilot, I've already been familiar with the notion that "autopilot," as used in planes, doesn't mean "push a button and go read a book." In planes, the pilot is still required to monitor all the instruments, look out the window, etc., while autopilot is engaged in order to deal with any unforeseen circumstances ranging from aircraft malfunction to, "Holy crap! It's a Chinese spy balloon!" It's been that way for every autopilot system since it was first invented around 100 years ago or so. Therefore, I treat my car's autopilot like an aircraft autopilot. Plus, I'm also keenly aware that any sort of "autopilot" system is much easier to implement for planes given how much less likely you're going to run into a situation like a child suddenly chasing a ball into the middle of a road.

However, I do understand that the average person who isn't an aviation geek may honestly think that "autopilot" does mean, "push a button and go read a book." Hence the need for all the appropriate additional safety checks to make sure they are actually paying attention while the system is engaged.

 

[johnsonwax]

The people who paid $12K for this are going to be thrilled.

 

[adespoton]

I'm not as familiar with Tesla's language so just curious if the features mentioned in here represent the auto-driving function that was viral on YouTube a year or two ago, where Tesla owners weren't even in the car and they could type in an address and the car would drive to that location by itself. There were many videos in Target parking lots and such places. I always felt that was a terrifying feature to let people use so willy-nilly - seems the "autopilot" mentioned in this article are the more common "lane keeping assist" and "auto cruise" that even my Honda had (which wasn't that trustworthy unless in perfect conditions). Is the NHTSB also looking at the aforementioned feature? Curious if that's even still available.

Part of the issue is that Tesla seems to conflate all these different features under the "autopilot" moniker. I think that autocall function was supposed to only work in parking lots at slow speed -- so you could exit a store and call your car to drive to the entrance to pick you up... at 15mph.

So while the two technologies that seem to get Tesla in trouble are lane keeping and auto cruise, the entire system is presented more as "the car can navigate by itself from A to B, and you just need to be there to make any required corrections" which some people have shortened to "the car can navigate by itself from A to B."

Personally, I think a partial fix for any auto-navigation at this level is to automatically disengage lanekeeping when approaching any intersection, first signaling a warning that an intersection is approaching and lanekeeping will be disengaged, and then by doing it.

Autonavigating THROUGH an intersection should be reserved for vehicles that can accomplish true autopilot.

Sure, this won't directly address Teslas crashing into emergency vehicles, but it will tangentially address it because the drivers will have to be in control of the vehicle at all times, to handle situations where lanekeeping disengages. Which means they're likely to actually see the emergency vehicle and take appropriate action.

 

[icrf]

How sensitive are torque sensors in steering wheels? Is it possible operate like one of those "I am not a robot" captchas that just looks for small random input that can't be simulated by a hanging weight?

 

[doug r]

Engaging with sophisticated language models indeed provides an opportunity to articulate thoughts with a heightened level of precision and complexity. The decision to utilize such tools is subjective and depends on individual preferences and communication goals. Whether opting for more extensive language or concise expression, the essence of the discourse remains paramount. The aim is to foster meaningful dialogue and mutual understanding, regardless of the chosen linguistic approach. If the use of advanced language models contributes positively to the exchange of ideas, it can be a valuable tool in promoting clarity and depth in communication.

Great-now you've put an "autopilot" driver to sleep.

 

[Jim Salter]

To be clear, I'm not cutting Tesla any slack here. The term "auto-pilot" in the context of what is just a driving assist feature, is misleading, and they should either rename it, or get the car to pilot itself. (so, rename it)

Likewise, the term "recall" is just as misleading, because none of these cars are going anywhere.
I realize that it isn't the fault of the NHTSA that Tesla doesn't have to do things the old way, like other manufacturers that actually do have to physically recall the vehicles for something like this, but it is a misleading word

I was with you so far, to the point of an upvote even.

in the context of how it's actually getting fixed by Tesla, and the word makes this sound a lot worse than it actually is.

Aaaaaand you lost me, cancel upvote, click downvote. Sigh.

 

[RickRoyLeonPrisZhoraRacha]

Ask any pilot: Autopilot STILL needs your awareness, trim ability and manual-override. You think a car, on the roads, can deal with unexpectations while you sleep or play internet games on the screen?

 

[alansh42]

People complaining about the word recall for an OTA update must really hate saving files to an SSD by clicking .

 

[doug r]

Ask any pilot: Autopilot STILL needs your awareness, trim ability and manual-override. You think a car, on the roads, can deal with unexpectations while you sleep or play internet games on the screen?

Autopilot has killed people in plane crashes-one case in particular of an ATR that was left on autopilot in icing conditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Eagle_Flight_4184

 

[Jim Salter]

How sensitive are torque sensors in steering wheels? Is it possible operate like one of those "I am not a robot" captchas that just looks for small random input that can't be simulated by a hanging weight?

Irrelevant. We already have technology that tracks eye movement. The torque sensor is a boondoggle.

Even if it worked perfectly, which would you prefer: a "driver" napping with their hands on the wheel, or a driver with their hands off the wheel, but their eyes firmly on the road?

 

[SirBedwyr]

edit: I want to make it EXTREMELY clear that this isn't Jonathan's job to use better terminology. This terminology sucks, but it's the OFFICIAL terminology and it's up to the NHTSA to change it; until then, we're stuck with Jonathan repeatedly explaining it and readers repeatedly getting it wrong.

No. Terms of art exist in professional and consumer settings and aren't defined by common dictionary meanings all the time. Where they're defined you need to adjust yourself to them.

 

[neeksgeek]

With the limitations of current technology on display, at some point you really might as well just drive the car yourself instead of gripping the wheel in a tense state of catlike readiness, waiting for your car to betray you at any moment.

Agreed. In fact, I went to a lot of trouble to learn to drive, and especially to drive well. I like computers, but I prefer to drive myself, thank you.

 

[jjmorris2000]

Likewise, the term "recall" is just as misleading, because none of these cars are going anywhere.
I realize that it isn't the fault of the NHTSA that Tesla doesn't have to do things the old way, like other manufacturers that actually do have to physically recall the vehicles for something like this, but it is a misleading word in the context of how it's actually getting fixed by Tesla, and the word makes this sound a lot worse than it actually is.

I agree that the term recall might be misleading so let's lobby the government to change the term to what it actually means.

"defective product safety warning".

Substitute that for "recall" in every announcement and I think you'll understand why the industry prefers the government to use the term "recall".

I personally would prefer that they label all of these things what they actually are - defective product safety warnings. But I bet Elon Musk would be livid if the headline on articles like this one were "Defective product safety warning issued on Tesla vehicles" rather than the term "recall".

 

[EBone]

My 2023 Lexus has Dynamic Radar Cruise Control and Lane Tracking Assist, which has the functionality of Autopilot and Autosteer. But Lexus isn't dumb enough to call it "autopilot" and I'm not dumb enough to take my hands off the wheel and eyes off the road when it's on.

 

[lewax00]

OK, just so we're clear. Do you think this recall is comparable to a recall where you have to take your vehicle back for servicing such as the Takata recall?

Because in this one, there's literally no action required from the end user. So I don't think I'm wrong in saying that the word "recall" makes it sound a lot worse than it is.
And you can put this to the test by asking lay persons what they think it means. (I guarantee you most of them would say that it means that you have to take the car back to the "dealer")

Actually, there literally is action required, because the user has to initiate the update (I should know, I own a Model 3, and I've updated it many times). So you're not even right on that account.

 

[AusPeter]

Irrelevant. We already have technology that tracks eye movement. The torque sensor is a boondoggle.

I'll point out that eye tracking implies cameras. And not everyone wants cameras in their cars watching their every move. The torque sensor (while I dislike mine) isn't something that could expose video of what's going on in my car.

 

[RammyBodger]

Likewise, the term "recall" is just as misleading, because none of these cars are going anywhere.
I realize that it isn't the fault of the NHTSA that Tesla doesn't have to do things the old way, like other manufacturers that actually do have to physically recall the vehicles for something like this, but it is a misleading word in the context of how it's actually getting fixed by Tesla, and the word makes this sound a lot worse than it actually is.

Recall is exactly the term used in this case, even though it is confusing.

The Nissan Leaf just went through a recall. The car could experience defroster failure, resulting in an inability to see out the windshield. The recall consisted of a new page to stick in the manual. It's not new or weird for a recall to not involve any hardware changes on the car. The big difference now is that recalls can include more than just an updated page for the manual, since OTA software updates are a thing.

 

[AusPeter]

OK, just so we're clear. Do you think this recall is comparable to a recall where you have to take your vehicle back for servicing such as the Takata recall?

A quick question here. How long will you continue to beat this particular horse. As has been previously pointed out a recall has a legal definition. I'm just curious if you are going to stop after tenderizing the horseflesh, or are you looking for horse paste, or even horse soup?

 

[vought1221]

I’m really loving the absolute dare of people still managing to grab straws insisting this should be called something other than a recall.

It’s a name for the process at the manufacturer and regulatory agency by which safety measures are implemented. Calm the heck down.

Edit: typo

 

[billyok]

Simply insane that it took this long. The government really is the last to know even when it's their job to be the first.

 

[Jim Salter]

With the limitations of current technology on display, at some point you really might as well just drive the car yourself instead of gripping the wheel in a tense state of catlike readiness, waiting for your car to betray you at any moment.

Thank you for this excellent description of the reason I do not find any kind of cruise control "relaxing." I find it far less stressful to perform the task that could kill me myself, rather than supervising an idiot who might kill us both at any moment.

 

[adamsc]

I'm sad that so many people want to say "hey if you can patch with software it's a software update not a safety recall."

This is why we can't have nice things and so much of our software sucks. People are willing to allow software to be defective to degrees that they'd never allow for in a non-software product because "it can be patched". So what? It's still defective, and if it is defective in a way that compromises safety it should be recalled in such a way that everyone who owns one actually panics and gets the patch done ASAP.

If we treated more of our software security issues as if they were safety recalls instead of "just" bad software we might have a lot fewer ransomware attacks going on these days.

Yeah, I’ve been amazed by how many Tesla stans are trying to die on that hill. I saw someone asking whether Apple should have to do that for iPhone security patches and it’s like … yes, then people would understand it’s important to install them? I’d strongly support software companies having to provide free, notified patches for CVEs over a certain score.

 

[DrLOAC]

Same, although as an experienced flight simulator gamer and student pilot, I've already been familiar with the notion that "autopilot," as used in planes, doesn't mean "push a button and go read a book." In planes, the pilot is still required to monitor all the instruments, look out the window, etc., while autopilot is engaged in order to deal with any unforeseen circumstances ranging from aircraft malfunction to, "Holy crap! It's a Chinese spy balloon!" It's been that way for every autopilot system since it was first invented around 100 years ago or so. Therefore, I treat my car's autopilot like an aircraft autopilot. Plus, I'm also keenly aware that any sort of "autopilot" system is much easier to implement for planes given how much less likely you're going to run into a situation like a child suddenly chasing a ball into the middle of a road.

However, I do understand that the average person who isn't an aviation geek may honestly think that "autopilot" does mean, "push a button and go read a book." Hence the need for all the appropriate additional safety checks to make sure they are actually paying attention while the system is engaged.

I have a background in aerospace and also understand the nomenclature and capabilities of autopilots. Using the technical term it’s actually a fair description of the capabilities of autopilot in a Tesla. As you said the average person doesn’t under that and colloquially assumes “autopilot” means they can stop paying attention and read a book.

(It’s also not lost on me that a good portion of the comments here are arguing about the technical vs colloquial term of “recall” )

As far as I’m concerned Tesla should implement best practices and geofence activation of autopilot to limited access highways and use the in cabin camera and steering wheel torque sensor to determine driver engagement.

For people who purposely bypass the steering wheel torque sensor via weights or the camera via their own “Otto” pilot.

Throw the book at them if they cause an accident.

 

[Jim Salter]

OK, just so we're clear. Do you think this recall is comparable to a recall where you have to take your vehicle back for servicing such as the Takata recall?

Because in this one, there's literally no action required from the end user. So I don't think I'm wrong in saying that the word "recall" makes it sound a lot worse than it is.
And you can put this to the test by asking lay persons what they think it means. (I guarantee you most of them would say that it means that you have to take the car back to the "dealer")

You're absolutely wrong to say that the word recall "makes it seem a lot worse than it is."

The terminology confuses, which in no way undercuts the severity of the defect or the importance of repairing or mitigating it.

 

[EnPeaSea]

(another "recall" comment)

Welcome to page 6. That has already been called out several times. Thanks for playing.

 

[charybdisjim]

EDIT: And now it appears their link aggregator is entirely offline. Not 100% sure if the entire t.co link aggregation site came offline (and so these links stopped working) or if the links stopped working then the link aggregation site went down.

Twitter (X) is now blocking news stories on the recall. Go to Engadget, the AP, or ArsTechnica's twitter feed for example and try to click through to their articles on the recall- you'll (as of posting this) get this error page instead:

 

[jock2nerd]

I had one with the torque sensor. If I was using Autopilot, I had to periodically jerk the car to one side or the other. Otherwise, it would harass me about hands on the wheel. It's a poor mechanism since it requires me to actually alter the car's direction whenever its timer goes off.

There are two tricks which work well.
1) My wife will often slightly move to steering wheel to the beat of the music
2) Hold the steering wheel in such a way as you are putting a slight downward pressure on it.

However, I hate all these driver monitoring methods. I keep my attention on the road and at least one hand on the steering wheel, like I had for the decades of driving car without cruise control or with cruise control. So why is the car being forced to monitor me even though it nowadays does a better job of cruise and autosteer than all the cars that didn't monitor me?