Man, somewhere along the way today I forget how I was linked to this but here's a good way to summarize that point:
Looks like the crypto collapse has begun
- Thread starter BFG10K
- Start date
So Bitcoin seems to be at an all time high or close to it, I guess the collapse has been delayed by a bit
Despite claims by proponents that BTC is like "digital gold" in practice its price action operates more like other risk assets like speculative tech stocks. Since the stock market is at an all time high right now I would expect BTC to also remain elevated. When Fed taper begins later this month it will be interesting over time to see the effects.
https://www.techspot.com/news/92286-us- ... llion.html
That definition applies to all Crypto mining. Absolutely nothing of value is ever created or represented. It's just imaginary numbers on an infinite scale, and the whales controlling the whole thing sit on the FIAT where the real value is.
Also notice how the restitution is being paid back in FIAT and not [inset another coin here]? The same reason why nobody ever says "wow, Ether is worth 10,000 Doggiecoin" or whatever, because it always comes back to FIAT.
That definition applies to all Crypto mining. Absolutely nothing of value is ever created or represented. It's just imaginary numbers on an infinite scale, and the whales controlling the whole thing sit on the FIAT where the real value is.
Also notice how the restitution is being paid back in FIAT and not [inset another coin here]? The same reason why nobody ever says "wow, Ether is worth 10,000 Doggiecoin" or whatever, because it always comes back to FIAT.
I read through that rant and through the follow-up one https://docseuss.medium.com/look-what-i ... 468c877acc and I'm not sure really what he is getting at except that he really doesn't like the idea of using NFTs in video games and he sets up several strawmen and knocks them down but I'm not sure how they relate to anything that happens in the real world. But maybe his rant is very relevant in some parts of the video games community.
Volatility is a very valuable commodity in a low vol world that's placed under the sedative of negative real interest rates and QE. Probably why you can earn insane interest rates in Defi platforms right now but you can barely get any interest on cash. Big hedge funds have gone into the high frequency crypto trading space and the volatility is like candy for them.
The cancerous parasites have fled China and are now descending on Kazakhstan and Sweden to rape the local power grids.
https://www.techspot.com/news/92405-cry ... risis.html
Once again the "secure decentralized blockchain" utopia is a complete failure and the Crypto bros continue to run to government cops paid by fiat to help them.
https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/2/2281 ... n-ethereum
https://www.techspot.com/news/92405-cry ... risis.html
Once again the "secure decentralized blockchain" utopia is a complete failure and the Crypto bros continue to run to government cops paid by fiat to help them.
https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/2/2281 ... n-ethereum
I'm greatly amused by the tweet they embedded in that TechSpot article: https://twitter.com/didar_bekbau/status ... 1518127104
Like we're meant to feel bad for the guy, and as if he was doing anything that benefited society in any way.
OT, but can we not do this? (c.f. this and this, and plenty of other writings besides).
Like we're meant to feel bad for the guy, and as if he was doing anything that benefited society in any way.
OT, but can we not do this? (c.f. this and this, and plenty of other writings besides).
I feel like there's no way mining would be a thing under the gold standard. Really the only reason IMO this entire thing works is because the world has been pegged to fiat toilet paper since the 1970s (the US dollar) which we print and then use to buy real things that other people make. Really these are just parasites that noticed they could suckle on the teat of a larger parasite because it's gotten so fat that it's leaking.
Not this shit again...
The gold standard is untenable. Gold is too valuable. A day's wages would be such a small amount of gold for most people that they'd be afraid to wash their hands after touching it.
Therefore, you'd have to alloy the gold into other metals for regular transaction amounts, but that's subject to counterfeiting because normal people can't get their gold assayed cheaply enough to determine if they're being cheated.
So you're left with... notes and promises that the note is backed by some gold in a vault somewhere, which is exactly where we started and also entirely built on trust in the currency issuer.
...and meanwhile, we'd be forced to keep most of the gold in a vault somewhere to back those notes, instead of actually using it for what it's useful for.
"But, but, but, gold is REAL!" Its value is not in any way in line with its practical utility. The majority of its value is not any more "real" than bitcoin's. It has just as many problems as fiat currencies, some of which are unique.
A currency is doing its job when it facilitates exchange of goods and services, which is what actually has value. Gold is too rare and currently too valuable to do that properly.
It's not the gold itself that matters, it's the hard constraint on the bank's ability to create currency.
The Fed has been digging an immense hole since about 1998, and we are so so so so so fucked when the bubble pops and the hole collapses. They've been managing to imagination.... they literally imagine what the market should be doing absent bad things that have happened, and keep printing money and buying securities until they hit the imaginary value.
You can't even imagine how fucked we are. We're caught between the massive deflationary pressure of the unbelievable amounts of debt that the system has taken on, and the inflationary, eventually hyperinflationary, pressure of the constant interventions required to keep the debt bubble from collapsing.
On any kind of a commodity standard, this unbelievably dangerous situation would not have been possible. Instead, we've have been forced to take our lumps in the Y2K and 2008 collapses, and then things would have been forced to change, to move into healthier patterns. House prices would have crashed and stayed down, for example. Instead, we've deployed unbelievable amounts of government debt and fiat money from nothing to constantly tell the system to keep doing more of what caused it to collapse in the first place.
Crypto, btw, doesn't solve any of this. It's entirely orthogonal. But part of the reason it's doing so well is because there's such an insane amount of liquidity in the system, desperately chasing returns that have evaporated because of all this free money from nothing.
edit: its primary value is its ability to escape US government controls on money flows, but there's no way that's worth $60K/bitcoin. That's speculators piling in.
The Fed has been digging an immense hole since about 1998, and we are so so so so so fucked when the bubble pops and the hole collapses. They've been managing to imagination.... they literally imagine what the market should be doing absent bad things that have happened, and keep printing money and buying securities until they hit the imaginary value.
You can't even imagine how fucked we are. We're caught between the massive deflationary pressure of the unbelievable amounts of debt that the system has taken on, and the inflationary, eventually hyperinflationary, pressure of the constant interventions required to keep the debt bubble from collapsing.
On any kind of a commodity standard, this unbelievably dangerous situation would not have been possible. Instead, we've have been forced to take our lumps in the Y2K and 2008 collapses, and then things would have been forced to change, to move into healthier patterns. House prices would have crashed and stayed down, for example. Instead, we've deployed unbelievable amounts of government debt and fiat money from nothing to constantly tell the system to keep doing more of what caused it to collapse in the first place.
Crypto, btw, doesn't solve any of this. It's entirely orthogonal. But part of the reason it's doing so well is because there's such an insane amount of liquidity in the system, desperately chasing returns that have evaporated because of all this free money from nothing.
edit: its primary value is its ability to escape US government controls on money flows, but there's no way that's worth $60K/bitcoin. That's speculators piling in.
And, again, so what? That constraint creates other problems and, in the end, relies on faith that the gold promised by the notes is sitting somewhere. Add in the fact that transactions are digital and it's even more disconnected from the "reality". Your physical constraints don't matter if the same people that would be managing the amount of leverage and auditing on the gold reserves are the people that are currently managing the fiat currency.
You can still get a bubble by people claiming to have gold that they really don't, and then the bubble and the entire fucking economy shitting itself when there's a "correction" when people find out that some of the gold has been, ahem, misplaced.
Meanwhile, the actual, physical supply of gold becomes a huge variable that can swing the global economies this way and that despite having little to no connection to the actual productivity going on. Do you want famines because someone hordes gold and refuses to exchange it (driving up the price of gold, which lets them leverage it for, say, bombs through backchannels)?
I'm not saying that fiat money is a good thing, I'm saying that the gold standard is not the panacea people think. You want a stable backing that prevents irresponsible fiat currency managers from manipulating things, but gold is *not good* for that.
Agreed. Crypto solves one problem -- facilitating exchange in goods and services by people who don't really care about the stability of the currency underneath, because they're otherwise blocked from trading those goods and services at all.
You could say that about lots of stocks, too. I'm not a fan of the "magic hand of the market pricing things according to their value", but you can't hold that The Magic Market has priced in a correct value of stocks and *not* hold the same for BitCoin. It does have value, and it is volatile. We have words for that already.
/// OFFICIAL MODERATION NOTICE ///
We understand cryptocurrency mining, given it so heavily uses GPUs and distorts the GPU market, does have some relevance to the Audio/Visual forum.
But I think we're getting a bit too far away from A/V forum material here.
To circle that back around, that sounds pretty familiar after reading about the situation with Tether, the so-called 'stable' coin tied to the USD that was supposed to have a 1:1 ratio of Tethers to USD in the bank.
https://news.coincu.com/22286-usdt-is-s ... cy-market/
Of course, they don't and it sounds more and more like another cash grab for the dude-bros that run it to take the money and disappear in the night.
In other news:
BitMart got hit for nearly $200 million and their CEO says he will pay victims back out of pocket... His pocket? Or the 'corporate pocket' that gets refilled with insurance money? :/
Something called BadgerDAO (decentralized finance platform or something?) also got hacked and lost $120 million.
It's pretty amazing that companies can just lose hundreds of millions of dollars for their users/investors and then be like, "It's fine! We'll pay you back!" Uh... where you getting all that extra cash sitting around to pay me back if you just lost hundreds of millions? How much money are you actually making here?
It can't end soon enough. I'm actually pretty surprised there has not been a more immediate turn from CPU/GPU based work software so something more friendly to the Earth in general and to people who might want to participate but don't have money to blow on crazy amounts of hardware. But then... it makes some sense that the people who have the money want to keep it and keep making more while keeping out the filthy masses that might devalue their tokens by participating while not being rich.
I just want the crypto markets to collapse so that GPUs can be purchased for a realistic amount of money again.
Lately I've been wanting to get into ML and playing around with tensor cores. I have a RTX 2060 which is quite decent and more than gets the job done. But I also want to buy a used GTX 1060 for another test platform, however, people are asking for $300-400 CDN for a used GTX 1060. For reference, I bought a brand new GTX 970 in December 2014 for $350.
And ever since somebody jokingly tried to setup 5-6 Raspberry Pis to mine some kind of cryptocoin (don't know which one, but it must be non-GPU bound, so maybe Minero?), used Raspberry Pi sales have gone apeshit around here. My friend, who is a teacher, has been trying to get his hands on RPis for his school to teach basic coding. He's saying that a RPi2 went for $200 and a RPi 3B+ is asking for $300 on local markets now that local miners are snagging them up to try and mine on them, too. FFS.
Lately I've been wanting to get into ML and playing around with tensor cores. I have a RTX 2060 which is quite decent and more than gets the job done. But I also want to buy a used GTX 1060 for another test platform, however, people are asking for $300-400 CDN for a used GTX 1060. For reference, I bought a brand new GTX 970 in December 2014 for $350.
And ever since somebody jokingly tried to setup 5-6 Raspberry Pis to mine some kind of cryptocoin (don't know which one, but it must be non-GPU bound, so maybe Minero?), used Raspberry Pi sales have gone apeshit around here. My friend, who is a teacher, has been trying to get his hands on RPis for his school to teach basic coding. He's saying that a RPi2 went for $200 and a RPi 3B+ is asking for $300 on local markets now that local miners are snagging them up to try and mine on them, too. FFS.
I fear that the cat is out of the proverbial bag now. Since the various companies involved have seen blood in the water, they'll be loath to reverse course. Plenty of idioms and metaphors for you there. The point being that prices will take longer to return to normal than is really 'necessary' because Nvidia/AMD and all the various AIB makers and the associated sellers are all making more money than they ever figured they would during a global pandemic and they are loving every minute of it (well, the minutes they spend looking at their bottom lines anyway).
Even if coin mining were banned world wide tomorrow, I would bet 18 to 24 months more before we see prices getting much better and a lot of that prediction depends on whether Intel can provide any kind of competition and actually wants to do so. If we keep the standard game of Nvidia and AMD playing tortoise and hare every few months with trickled out releases and strategic packaging and stuff, we'll see these ridiculous prices continue for another 2 years before the prices start to get reasonable again. I imagine the top end products will stay in the $1500+ range basically permanently unless most of the people buying them just get smart and realize they just don't need them.
The point being that prices will take longer to return to normal than is really 'necessary' because Nvidia/AMD and all the various AIB makers and the associated sellers are all making more money than they ever figured they would during a global pandemic and they are loving every minute of it (well, the minutes they spend looking at their bottom lines anyway). Even if coin mining were banned world wide tomorrow, I would bet 18 to 24 months more before we see prices getting much better and a lot of that prediction depends on whether Intel can provide any kind of competition and actually wants to do so. If we keep the standard game of Nvidia and AMD playing tortoise and hare every few months with trickled out releases and strategic packaging and stuff, we'll see these ridiculous prices continue for another 2 years before the prices start to get reasonable again. I imagine the top end products will stay in the $1500+ range basically permanently unless most of the people buying them just get smart and realize they just don't need them.
I don't know what the pricing would be like but couldn't you use aws?
Nah, if coins were banned world-wide tomorrow, the market would be absolutely flooded with video cards as the mining farms are dismantled and sold off. The problem wouldn't be getting a 3070 or whatever, it would be getting one that wasn't used for mining.
Well, it's already banned in China but mining continues there, just underground now compared to the almost celebrity status it had before. It was trendy there but now something you do because you still need to recoup your investment. And yes, some cards hit the market but they went straight to scalpers for the large part. It would still take a massive flood of used gear to saturate the market to a degree that would bring down prices.
Of course, the highly theoretical world wide ban would never actually happen. There will always be countries that will see more benefit in zigging when the rest of the world zags. If you could see 70% of the world banning crypto mining in large scale installations, it would look very advantageous if you had idle warehouse space with cooling and power waiting to be used, particularly in a country with lax law enforcement and no international commitment or fear of sanctions.
What it would have to be is a globally enforced tax on crypto trading. 50-75% tax on every transaction will drive the market underground enough to turn it more into a niche bartering scheme like it used to be. If you can't get dollars, euros, etc. for your coins, they become much less valuable, doubly so if it is illegal to accept them as currency in open trade. That's where I am hoping things will go next, not banning mining so much as making the financial incentive so small that it will simply return to a novelty until someone can come up with a MUCH less 'expensive' crypto platform that doesn't basically burn ever increasing buckets of electricity to make fake money.
As I understand it, miners are into power efficiency, typically, more than almost anything else, so will typically underclock and undervolt cards looking for the best possible hashrate per watt. Most miner cards should show less actual wear than most gamer cards, especially the overclocked ones, and super especially the ones that run the RAM too hot.
From what I remember from when mining Vega 56 and Vega 64 cards hit the used market, didn't the undervolting reduce their lifespan since it caused more current to be shunted through the card's power delivery circuitry to compensate?
Um, maybe? I hadn't heard about that, and I'm too ignorant about electronics to know whether that's plausible or not.
Yes, do you have source on that claim MadMac? I have a Vega 56 and it has been running undervolted since I got it. Now that is some limited gaming and I never mined on it, but I really don't want the damn thing to die on me now.
The only source I can distinctly remember was a random post on r/AMD from a user who had used theirs undervolted for mining for some time, and it died within three years. Upon further reflection, I didn't read about it anywhere else, and I have no idea how otherwise abused the card was. If they had undervolted and kept the factory power limits instead of also adding a power limit, that could have contributed to the failure.
Ok, thanks. I guess it will be a few decades before my light gaming reaches the number of hours someone gets from 24/7 mining over three years.
Doubt your stuff will last that long, electron migration will probably kill it, or some other shortcut taken during manufacturing. Most electronic goods aren’t really designed to last very long these days via planned obsolescence to keep consumers buying. This isn’t your grandpa’s generation where appliances and TVs were built to be handed down through the generations.
Hah I wouldn't be quite that pessimistic about a stock-clocked GPU dying in 3 years from electron migration. Or even five years. Now that said we don't track customer data as much past warranty and past support, and virtually none pay for support past five years so I can't speak for longer than five years.
TVs were very poorly made in most cases. We had a tube TV that stopped working fairly frequently, so my father would have to take all the tubes out of it, and go to the tube tester at the drugstore, and buy one or more replacements once he knew which one had broken.
Transistor sets were better, but they broke too.
What you're seeing is survivorship bias: the only ones still being used are the ones that were made extremely well. The great majority of the stuff made back then is in landfills.
Sony stuff tended to be very well made, though. Almost anything with that label on it would be excellent, from the late 70s through probably the late 90s.
Next to ban Crypto is Kosovo. 70 GPUs were confiscated in just 2 apartments.
https://www.reddit.com/r/NiceHash/comme ... &ref=share
This is exactly why we have GPU shortages and high prices.
https://www.reddit.com/r/NiceHash/comme ... &ref=share
This is exactly why we have GPU shortages and high prices.
3050 is apparently bad for mining: https://www.techspot.com/news/93088-num ... ining.html
So we might have a card gamers can actually buy at a reasonable price.
Also Crypto's massively crashing right now, and Russia is considering a ban: https://www.techspot.com/news/93079-rus ... ining.html
So we might have a card gamers can actually buy at a reasonable price.
Also Crypto's massively crashing right now, and Russia is considering a ban: https://www.techspot.com/news/93079-rus ... ining.html
Yay on the continued slide of bitcoin and pulling down the rest of the market. If Russia does effectively ban mining and trading, I can only hope the Western world will start to follow. Not holding my breath, but hoping.
Unfortunately the 3050 is not only bad for mining, but also for gaming. :/
Unfortunately the 3050 is not only bad for mining, but also for gaming. :/
Great to hear it sucks mining. Did they test it mining multiple types of currency simultaneously?
If the 3050 offers similar rasterization performance to the 6500XT without requiring a PCIe gen4 bus and supports DLSS and sells for anywhere under $320 or so, I can see it being an attractive purchase for people in that segment.
If the 3050 offers similar rasterization performance to the 6500XT without requiring a PCIe gen4 bus and supports DLSS and sells for anywhere under $320 or so, I can see it being an attractive purchase for people in that segment.
Another day, another crypto farm busted for stealing electricity from the grid:
https://hothardware.com/news/cops-on-a- ... rm-instead
Complete with a whole bunch of EVGA 3xxx cards, with RGB added for good measure.
Cryptobros...bettering humanity since 2009!
https://hothardware.com/news/cops-on-a- ... rm-instead
Complete with a whole bunch of EVGA 3xxx cards, with RGB added for good measure.
Cryptobros...bettering humanity since 2009!
Stupid of them to steal electricity. As the article noted cryptomining is perfectly legal in their locale, all they had to do was pay for the juice and they would have been perfectly fine. But in their heart of hearts these guys are crooks, so why should they pay for anything?
The article notes that they were making about 1K euros per month - but were stealing 2K euros' worth of electricity to do it.