Epstein client list, does it exist or not?

Doomlord_uk

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If your goal is to eliminate billionaires (just billionaires? where's the cut-off before Unstoppable Evil comes in?) why tax them? Just outlaw 'excess' wealth and take it. Super-curious, because I've never seen this question answered, but where is that cut-off? I'm going to guess it's way below $1bn actually. I'd guess $50m? $100m? Go on, pick a figure!
 

Doomlord_uk

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nd that means that such people will behave in more antisocial ways than they would otherwise.
Or you could just outlaw antisocial behaviour and actually enforce those laws? Wanna bet the ways that Esptein corrupted the Miami PD are already illegal? Maybe we just need greater transparency in government systems, and therefore better accountability?
 

Doomlord_uk

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God I miss the good old days in the Soap Box, when OPs had to have a contention and not just post a thread to 'contain discussion'.

No-one here seems to be really able to articulate what problem(s) they want to see solved. It's just people ranting about seeming unfairness and inequality and blaming billionaires because 'punching up' is gud.

Anyway, here's my take - billionaires (and free market valuations) are not the problem. Inequality isn't a problem, it's a sympton of a problem.

Let me put it this way, if I'm ok (I can pay my bills, I'm safe, free and able to pursue basic happiness in a society that protects me) then what does it matter if someone else has 10,000x the wealth I do? If I worked for a company that supplied parts to another company that builds megayachts for the superrich, I might even be pretty pleased there are people buying those things.

Come on, what's the ACTUAL problem here???
 

Doomlord_uk

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Erm, sort of? Maybe... =/ [Edit] - on reflection, yes I clearly was. Doh.

That thread did take off from this one...

My point for this thread then is that Epstein was a psychopathie ehebephile who corrupted a police department, the judiciary and perhaps even the FBI, and pretty much everyone around him. Money no doubt helped that but he was doing this well before he had money. Like Trump, legitimate questions exist about just how much he really had. If I recall from Patrick Boyle's video Epstein didn't ever get into billionaire territory himself anyway, by quite a margin.
 
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Thank You and Best of Luck!

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Anyway, here's my take - billionaires (and free market valuations) are not the problem. Inequality isn't a problem, it's a sympton of a problem.
My contention is that it’s impossible for any single person, who didn’t individually invent and/or found something extremely novel, to be adding 10,000x actual value to any human enterprise relative to most other people involved. When someone is accumulating several orders of magnitude more wealth/reward as Billionaires do, then they’re only able to do so by one or more of the following:
  • Compounding capital advantage. Which also includes people/investors/lenders being more willing to give them tons more favor because they have lots of money already.
  • Luck. Which also includes peer attrition. This is the case in finance. Absolutely nobody has a special insight. It’s just who’s luckiest, longest, and then the compounding capital advantages kick into high gear.
  • Grossly uncompetitive marketplace. Which easily gets less and less competitive over time as compounding capital advantages takeover.
  • Fraud. Of either the normal financial, legal sort or of the sociological sort (e.g. Elon Musk being a “founder”).
Having a lot of that going on in a market makes it very stagnant, very insular, and very circular. Not a lot of real value is created. Just a lot of shell games, “business model” schemes, and dubious manias.

That kind of marketplace and sociological configuration offends me as an existential matter. So, I’d strongly prefer it be radically reformed to be more likely, rather than less likely as is the case now, to result in more proportionally recognizing the real contributions of value that people are making to some endeavor.
 
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QtDevSvr

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My contention is that it’s impossible for any single person, who didn’t individually invent and/or invent something extremely novel, to be adding 10,000x actual value to any human enterprise relative to most other people involved. When someone is accumulating several orders of magnitude more wealth/reward as Billionaires do, then they’re only able to do so by one or more of the following:
  • Compounding capital advantage. Which also includes people/investors/lenders being more willing to give them tons more favor because they have lots of money already.
  • Luck. Which also includes peer attrition. This is the case in finance. Absolutely nobody has a special insight. It’s just who’s luckiest, longest, and then the compounding capital advantages kick into high gear.
  • Grossly uncompetitive marketplace. Which easily gets less and less competitive over time as compounding capital advantages takeover.
  • Fraud. Of either the normal financial, legal sort or of the sociological sort (e.g. Elon Musk being a “founder”).
Having a lot of that going on in a market makes it very stagnant, very insular, and very circular. Not a lot of real value is created. Just a lot of shell games, “business model” schemes, and dubious manias.

That kind of marketplace and sociological configuration offends me as an existential matter. So, I’d strongly prefer it be radically reformed to be more likely, rather than less likely as is the case now, to result in more proportionally recognizing the real contributions of value that people are making to some endeavor.
The way I'm coming to see it -- and let me know if you think this is too simple or just wrong -- is like this:
  1. The potential value of any innovation is in part proportional to the "prior art" upon which its realization rests.
  2. Technology is cumulative: ongoing innovation rests on past innovation.
  3. The bulk of past innovation (from tool making through fire and the wheel to the foundations of computer science and beyond) is the common property of humanity.
  4. Take away something like the wheel (and all it's analogues, such as gears, etc), or computation, or any other crucial element in the common technical heritage, and any current innovation would be rendered impossible, useless, or merely far less productive and valuable.
  5. The fact that modern innovations are capable of generating historically extraordinary wealth does not mean that current innovators are more ingenious or worthy than past innovators, it merely reflects the burgeoning momentum of our common and geometrically or exponentially accumulating prior art.
  6. Therefore, a great deal of the value of ongoing innovation properly should flow to society. The innovator should benefit more than an arbitrary member of the commons, but there is no justification that they benefit by any proportion beyond what is needed to motivate innovation.
 

MrFred

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The way I'm coming to see it -- and let me know if you think this is too simple or just wrong -- is like this:
  1. The potential value of any innovation is in part proportional to the "prior art" upon which its realization rests.
  2. Technology is cumulative: ongoing innovation rests on past innovation.
  3. The bulk of past innovation (from tool making through fire and the wheel to the foundations of computer science and beyond) is the common property of humanity.
  4. Take away something like the wheel (and all it's analogues, such as gears, etc), or computation, or any other crucial element in the common technical heritage, and any current innovation would be rendered impossible, useless, or merely far less productive and valuable.
  5. The fact that modern innovations are capable of generating historically extraordinary wealth does not mean that current innovators are more ingenious or worthy than past innovators, it merely reflects the burgeoning momentum of our common and geometrically or exponentially accumulating prior art.
  6. Therefore, a great deal of the value of ongoing innovation properly should flow to society. The innovator should benefit more than an arbitrary member of the commons, but there is no justification that they benefit by any proportion beyond what is needed to motivate innovation.
I'd add:
A. The ability to enjoy the benefit of many innovative or creative works (patents or copyright) all but requires a society and concomitant laws. Ensuring that both society in general and those that create novel works all benefit is an interesting topic and there are a range of options where everyone wins.
B. The alternative to patents, etc. is some sort of trade secret/guild system and probably much of the underlying prior work wouldn't be available.
C. Supporting (open) patents, copyright, and academic work to generate prior work is part of the benefit society provides innovators/creators. (Which America was great at...)
D. There are other principles than wealth. Einstein, Jonas Salk and other vaccine inventors deserved to retire comfortably, dine on filtet mignon and caviar whenever they wanted, have their path swept of dirt before they went anywhere, but they weren't billionaires.

Edit: should we be in the billionaire's thread with this stuff?
 
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wco81

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GOP House are still ready to vote for release of the Epstein files, with even some having heard that they put Trump in a really bad light.



A few GOP house members say they’ve heard from FBI/DOJ contacts that the Epstein files (with copies in different agencies) are worse than Michael Wolff’s description of Epstein photos showingTrump with half naked teenage girls. Speculation/rumors sweeping through GOP caucus. 1/

I'll believe it when I see it. Why wouldn't Trump have his lackeys destroy these incriminating files or redact them heavily?

He was stealing boxes of classified documents when he left in 2020 so he wouldn't have any compunction about destroying any incriminating documents.
 

Xenocrates

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If your goal is to eliminate billionaires (just billionaires? where's the cut-off before Unstoppable Evil comes in?) why tax them? Just outlaw 'excess' wealth and take it. Super-curious, because I've never seen this question answered, but where is that cut-off? I'm going to guess it's way below $1bn actually. I'd guess $50m? $100m? Go on, pick a figure!
Because taxation can be gradual, and doesn't represent a legal issue with the prohibitions against post facto laws. We don't have to set a firm threshold to strongly disincentivize billionaires. If it gets to the point where above 20M/Y has a marginal tax rate of 95% and above 50M/Y has a marginal tax rate of 99%, then there's almost no incentive to earn more than that.
Btw, when the government has taken all the billionaire's wealth, what are they going to do with all those yachts and private mansions and so on and so forth? Who's going to run all the companies no longer owned by their previous shareholders? Worker's committees? I'm sure those would be highly effective....
The yachts and mansions operational costs are a small fraction of their value, so once they're built, you could rent them out for the still wealthy, but not as society destroyingly affluent. Or their owners could keep them, since very few of the billionaires would be in danger of having to liquidate them even if they stopped being billionaires. Even a few hundred million would serve fine to keep those operating, even more so if they defrayed operating expenses by hosting parties with cover charges or renting them out. They're wasteful and usually tasteless sure, but since they exist, may as well use them until they no longer exist.

The companies would have their stock purchased on the market, for those that are publicly traded, to pay the tax bills. Private companies would be harder, but employee ownership is quite effective at operating and preserving a company, it's just not the primary economic model we see used for explosive and exploitative growth, because it turns out that employee exploitation and shady business practices aren't winners with most employees.
Anyway, here's my take - billionaires (and free market valuations) are not the problem. Inequality isn't a problem, it's a sympton of a problem.

Let me put it this way, if I'm ok (I can pay my bills, I'm safe, free and able to pursue basic happiness in a society that protects me) then what does it matter if someone else has 10,000x the wealth I do? If I worked for a company that supplied parts to another company that builds megayachts for the superrich, I might even be pretty pleased there are people buying those things.

Come on, what's the ACTUAL problem here???
The problem is that that much wealth means that there is a massive imbalance in influence and power, and that those billionaires can use that to make the society not protect you. If that societal protection and freedom were actually iron clad, it wouldn't be a problem. It's that the level of wealth accumulation is only enabled by demolishing protections for people at scale.
If, when in a thread about rich people sexually abusing children and getting away with it, BECAUSE THEY ARE RICH, you are asking what the problem with letting people be rich, cause you're totally safe and protected, then you have to take a long hard look at your own convictions, as well as if you're actually safe, or just unattractive to predators.
Then again, you're also the one who got the Andrew thread locked, so maybe we have a mismatch at the values/morals level.
 

Technarch

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GOP House are still ready to vote for release of the Epstein files, with even some having heard that they put Trump in a really bad light.





I'll believe it when I see it. Why wouldn't Trump have his lackeys destroy these incriminating files or redact them heavily?

He was stealing boxes of classified documents when he left in 2020 so he wouldn't have any compunction about destroying any incriminating documents.


I'd be surprised if there weren't multiple copies of these file floating around. Anyone with a cell phone camera and access to the files would surely want a copy of the only existing insurance against Trump fuckery.
 
Trump has been putting Trump in "really bad light" vis a vis women, girls and his sex life his entire adult life.

Rumors of more stories of his sexual escapades coming to light fail to disquiet me. Nor do I believe there are undecided people in the electorate on the question. He is already a sex creep, Sex Tiger, or repentant instrument of God's Will in the minds of everyone who cares.

I asked early on in this thread. What exactly do people think is going to be 'revealed' in these files that you don't already know about DJT?
 
Trump has been putting Trump in "really bad light" vis a vis women, girls and his sex life his entire adult life.

Rumors of more stories of his sexual escapades coming to light fail to disquiet me. Nor do I believe there are undecided people in the electorate on the question. He is already a sex creep, Sex Tiger, or repentant instrument of God's Will in the minds of everyone who cares.

I asked early on in this thread. What exactly do people think is going to be 'revealed' in these files that you don't already know about DJT?
Have we tried having pictures of Trump with half naked underage girls in the news at the same time as doubled or tripled health care premiums?
 

sword_9mm

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Trump has been putting Trump in "really bad light" vis a vis women, girls and his sex life his entire adult life.

Rumors of more stories of his sexual escapades coming to light fail to disquiet me. Nor do I believe there are undecided people in the electorate on the question. He is already a sex creep, Sex Tiger, or repentant instrument of God's Will in the minds of everyone who cares.

I asked early on in this thread. What exactly do people think is going to be 'revealed' in these files that you don't already know about DJT?

Yeah.

The 'file' could literally be a camcorder tape of Trump raping a line of 15 year old girls (or whatever age he's into) and it may actually garner him MORE votes/support from this shitty citizenry.
 
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Have we tried having pictures of Trump with half naked underage girls in the news at the same time as doubled or tripled health care premiums?
I'm all for trying, but not going to get my hopes up that it suddenly becomes disqualifying to people who have already decided everything up to now wasn't.

I hate to say it, but for a GOP politician in this timeline, they probably have to be caught with a live boy or a dead girl.
 

Shavano

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I'm all for trying, but not going to get my hopes up that it suddenly becomes disqualifying to people who have already decided everything up to now wasn't.

I hate to say it, but for a GOP politician in this timeline, they probably have to be caught with a live boy or a dead girl.
The live boy enticed them. Or the dead girl shouldn't have worth that dress. Either way it's not their fault; only Democrats have agency.
 
The Guardian - Trump knew about Jeffrey Epstein's conduct

Damning new emails that suggest Donald Trump knew about the conduct of the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein were released Wednesday, including one in which Epstein said “of course [Trump] knew about the girls” that were procured for his sex-trafficking ring.

The release of the three messages by Democrats on the House oversight committee is likely to add significant pressure on the White House to release the so-called Epstein files.


In one of the memos, Epstein wrote to his co-conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell in 2011 that Trump “spent hours at my house” in the company of one of the disgraced financier’s sex-trafficked victims.

The news is alive this morning about all of this new information. "But Jeffrey's e-mails."
And this is the brightest news I had for weeks, now.
 

KobayashiSaru

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Forgive my ignorance, who is Wolff?

Michael Wolff - Trump's biographer whom Epstein was also emailing with and has been sitting on this information for years. It's in the Guardian article linked above.

It's likely only coming out now because Adelita Grijalva will finally be sworn in to the House now, and her vote will allow the release of the files. Unless, of course, more craven Democrats decide to suddenly vote against it.
 

Doomlord_uk

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Oh wow. I have read his trilogy on Trumps' first term. He hardly did much to defend Trump then, the books are hardly complimentary, so why would he later? Per the article:

“If we were able to craft an answer for him, what do you think it should be?” Epstein asked.

“I think you should let him hang himself,” Wolff responded.

It was hardly secret anyway, Epstein's activities, was it? So I'm not sure he belongs in prison...
 

Coriolanus

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Michael Wolff - Trump's biographer whom Epstein was also emailing with and has been sitting on this information for years. It's in the Guardian article linked above.

It's likely only coming out now because Adelita Grijalva will finally be sworn in to the House now, and her vote will allow the release of the files. Unless, of course, more craven Democrats decide to suddenly vote against it.
The discharge petition that Grijalva will sign pertains to DOJ investigation files.

The data dump today is from files provided by Epstein's estate to the House Oversight Committee.

Different batches we are talking about.
 
...and there's more: New York Times - gift article

House Republicans on Wednesday released a titanic trove of 23,000 pages of documents from the estate of the disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein after months of delays — shortly after Democrats released emails suggesting that President Trump knew more about Mr. Epstein’s sex trafficking than he has previously acknowledged.

Oh goody, this is what I live for!
 

Gisboth

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Adelita Grijalva will finally be sworn in to the House now, and her vote will allow the release of the files. Unless, of course, more craven Democrats decide to suddenly vote against it.
Slight correction: Her signature will allow the discharge petition to proceed, which will force a vote in the House on a bill that would require the DOJ to release the files.

That bill would then go to the Senate. If the Senate manages to pass it (with 60 votes needed), it would then go to the President's desk for his signature to become law. If he vetoes it (which he would - bet the farm on that), then both houses would need a 2/3rds vote to override the veto.

In other words, every Democrat (and quite a few Republicans) could vote for it, and it still ain't gonna happen.

For more info, see I'm Just a Bill ;)
 

Zod

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Slight correction: Her signature will allow the discharge petition to proceed, which will force a vote in the House on a bill that would require the DOJ to release the files.

That bill would then go to the Senate. If the Senate manages to pass it (with 60 votes needed), it would then go to the President's desk for his signature to become law. If he vetoes it (which he would - bet the farm on that), then both houses would need a 2/3rds vote to override the veto.

In other words, every Democrat (and quite a few Republicans) could vote for it, and it still ain't gonna happen.

For more info, see I'm Just a Bill ;)
But then the GOP majority in the Senate and Trump himself will explicitly have prevented release of the files, allowing the rest of the world to conclude the files evidence Trump's guilt. He'll brazen it out, but I can't see the public forgiving him or his party.
 

DarthSlack

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Slight correction: Her signature will allow the discharge petition to proceed, which will force a vote in the House on a bill that would require the DOJ to release the files.

That bill would then go to the Senate. If the Senate manages to pass it (with 60 votes needed), it would then go to the President's desk for his signature to become law. If he vetoes it (which he would - bet the farm on that), then both houses would need a 2/3rds vote to override the veto.

In other words, every Democrat (and quite a few Republicans) could vote for it, and it still ain't gonna happen.

For more info, see I'm Just a Bill ;)

While you're certainly right about the eventual outcome, the circus around all the votes and vetos are going to put a lot of uncomfortable questions front and center. And given the importance of the Epstein files to MAGA, Trump getting stupid about the files could cause voters to stay home.

<edit> And effectively ninja'd by Zod
 

GohanIYIan

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Slight correction: Her signature will allow the discharge petition to proceed, which will force a vote in the House on a bill that would require the DOJ to release the files.

That bill would then go to the Senate. If the Senate manages to pass it (with 60 votes needed), it would then go to the President's desk for his signature to become law. If he vetoes it (which he would - bet the farm on that), then both houses would need a 2/3rds vote to override the veto.

In other words, every Democrat (and quite a few Republicans) could vote for it, and it still ain't gonna happen.

For more info, see I'm Just a Bill ;)
I think it really depends what exactly DoJ has. Vetoing it would make him look super guilty. He might prefer to let it pass, have DoJ release something really heavily redacted then admit little things in dribs and drabs so when the information finally comes out lots of people just shrug because it's stuff we already knew. That's basically the play he ran in not firing Mueller.

Russia? Never heard of it. Oh, I see, the country. I thought it was Roo-sha; guess I've been saying it wrong. I've never met anyone from Russia. What's that? You're right, some people from my campaign met with some Russians but I didn't know anything about it. OK, right, I did find out about it after the fact, but I didn't set it up. OK, fine, I orchestrated the whole thing, but it was just some weird thing about adoptions so who cares? Aren't you tired of this endless talk about Russia?
 

Technarch

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I'm all for trying, but not going to get my hopes up that it suddenly becomes disqualifying to people who have already decided everything up to now wasn't.

I hate to say it, but for a GOP politician in this timeline, they probably have to be caught with a live boy or a dead girl.

You may be right. Then again, there's reporting from the FBI agents tasked with scrubbing Trump's name from the files that they would encounter videos, and that the videos were traumatizing enough for some of those agents to need counseling. We know that at least one bedroom on the island was equipped with a video camera. And it's said that around 100 House representatives are ready to vote to release the files. Among them is MTG, who has recently become vocally anti-Trump.

I think there's a core of maybe 20-30% of Republicans who truly are Jonestown-level cult members. But MAGA isn't monolithic. There is evidence that the events of the last ten months are killing MAGA enthusiasm--there are fewer yard signs, fewer red hats at the gun shows, and last week's elections. And we know that Trump's refusal to release the files directly pissed off a lot of MAGAs.

Of course we have yet to see whether the files will be released, whether they will be fully released or redacted or doctored, and what the reaction will be in Washington and among MAGA. I doubt it will be enough for Trump to be successfully impeached, convicted, and removed. But I hold out hope that it might at least cripple his administration.
 

Stern

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Ecmaster76

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Then again, there's reporting from the FBI agents tasked with scrubbing Trump's name from the files that they would encounter videos, and that the videos were traumatizing enough for some of those agents to need counseling.
It boggles the mind that there could be so much video evidence and only one person in jail
 

KobayashiSaru

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"Why are White House officials…meeting with Rep. Boebert in an effort to try to get her to not sign this petition calling for the release of the [Epstein] files?"

Leavitt: "I'm not going to detail conversations that took place in the situation room."
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/12/us/politics/trump-epstein-vote-boebert.html


Nothing to see here, folks, just a distraction. It's so unimportant they are discussing it in the White House's crisis command center.
 

BeefStew

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I'm all for trying, but not going to get my hopes up that it suddenly becomes disqualifying to people who have already decided everything up to now wasn't.

I hate to say it, but for a GOP politician in this timeline, they probably have to be caught with a live boy or a dead girl.
I think a big part of pushing for this is it presents a perfect “dog catches car” scenario for the GOP. Recall there were a lot of campaign talk about releasing the files…to the point it became a MAGA litmus test.

In other words, it’s a rare political gift to the Dems.

Regardless of politics, it should be brought to light so perpetrators are held to account and the victims can finally gain closure; a dream scenario, I know.