Domestic consequences of the 2024 US presidential election: the quickening

Macam

Ars Tribunus Militum
2,292
CCP may not ever pass any actual tariff or policies. Just bad mouth Musk on the media may be enough to stop people from buying Tesla. I think people in China are start moving towards domestics brands anyways.

Just call it an anti-corruption drive and everyone will steer clear.

I think Musk’s biggest domestic drive is just to kill the 20+ investigations into his companies, lock himself into endless government contracts, and try to push his redpilled identity politics down everyone’s throat. The usual oligarch playbook.
 
CCP may not ever pass any actual tariff or policies. Just bad mouth Musk on the media may be enough to stop people from buying Tesla. I think people in China are start moving towards domestics brands anyways.

By "moving towards domestic brands" you mean "BYD sells as many as everyone else put together" yeah. BYD are just bubbling under the top 10 global car manufacturers.

They're probably one of the primary targets of Trump's tarriffs. Which they'll dodge by buying some bits of Stellantis when they explode. Again.
 

DarthSlack

Ars Legatus Legionis
23,283
Subscriptor++
You do understand that US markets are way up since the election, right? And that that is exactly the opposite of what would happen if people were pulling money out of the US markets en masse and investing it elsewhere? Certainly the markets may crash at some point because of Trump, but that certainly isn't happening now and you're speaking in the present tense.


The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent is still a truism. "The Market" is quite possibly one of the worst ways to judge, well, anything since so much of the wealth is controlled by so few people. And large chunks of the market are retirement funds that aren't easily moved or changed. Not to mention that the end-of-year is near and Trump and his hairbrained policies aren't going to kick in until late January at the earliest. So taking consolation from the state of the market today is just irrational.
 

fil

Ars Legatus Legionis
11,220
Subscriptor++
The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent is still a truism. "The Market" is quite possibly one of the worst ways to judge, well, anything since so much of the wealth is controlled by so few people.
Well, except for the exact thing I was talking about, which is cash flows in and out of US markets. Net cash flow in, prices go up, net cash flow out, they go down.

And large chunks of the market are retirement funds that aren't easily moved or changed.
Large funds like Bloomberg's for example, can certainly choose to take on higher or lower risk positions based on the managers' views of the market.

Again, I'm not saying the recent strong rise of US markets is rational, but rather simply that it exists and provides a clear indication of net flows of investment into not out of the US markets since Trump was elected, in direct contradiction of the idea that at present a consequence of Trump's election was the opposite of that (in the post I was responding to).

Not to mention that the end-of-year is near and Trump and his hairbrained policies aren't going to kick in until late January at the earliest. So taking consolation from the state of the market today is just irrational.
Again, the post I was replying to was in the present tense, talking about divestment from US markets in the present.

I certainly agree such a thing could happen in the future, but it simply hasn't happened yet.

And in thinking about the future, it's valuable to keep in mind that various forms of Trump-driven market crashes are likely to impact foreign markets as well as US markets, in some cases even impacting foreign markets (eg in export-driven economies) more than they impact US markets. Don't assume that just moving investments from US to non-US markets is going to be a win in a global recession, that certainly hasn't been the case in the past.
 

Numfuddle

Ars Tribunus Militum
2,556
Subscriptor
So it seems like Musk has posted a "list" with avtual names of government employees he'll cut once Trump is in power and apparently a lot of other Trump cabinet members have lists of enemiesnames they want to cut as well.

Raiklin's targets are mostly people related to the "unethical vaccination programs"

What those lists includes lots of: women and members of minorities
What those lists inlcude less of: white men
 

karolus

Ars Legatus Legionis
10,849
Subscriptor++
So it seems like Musk has posted a "list" with avtual names of government employees he'll cut once Trump is in power and apparently a lot of other Trump cabinet members have lists of enemiesnames they want to cut as well.

Raiklin's targets are mostly people related to the "unethical vaccination programs"

What those lists includes lots of: women and members of minorities
What those lists inlcude less of: white men
This could get interesting. Know a few federal employees. Some are under union representation. This grand plan could create a lot of turmoil and blowback, as well as helping achieve some of this Administration's desired objectives. A real issue, though, could be the loss of institutional knowledge.
 
  • Angry
Reactions: scarletjinx

goates

Ars Praefectus
3,321
Subscriptor++

Da Xiang

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
6,850
Subscriptor
This could get interesting. Know a few federal employees. Some are under union representation. This grand plan could create a lot of turmoil and blowback, as well as helping achieve some of this Administration's desired objectives. A real issue, though, could be the loss of institutional knowledge.
And because unions.....if the union supports any kind of sick out/walkout, Trump will just do a Reagan and declare government worker unions illegal.
 

karolus

Ars Legatus Legionis
10,849
Subscriptor++
And because unions.....if the union supports any kind of sick out/walkout, Trump will just do a Reagan and declare government worker unions illegal.
Yeah—that's what I alluded to in the desired objectives. Institutional knowledge gone, which may also be a desired goal—along the lines of Bannon's objectives. It will result in a lot of disruption for the public in some cases.
 

Macam

Ars Tribunus Militum
2,292
The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent is still a truism. "The Market" is quite possibly one of the worst ways to judge, well, anything since so much of the wealth is controlled by so few people. And large chunks of the market are retirement funds that aren't easily moved or changed. Not to mention that the end-of-year is near and Trump and his hairbrained policies aren't going to kick in until late January at the earliest. So taking consolation from the state of the market today is just irrational.

Yup. I'll be pulling some liquid funds out come January, but "The Market" is an enormously stupid thing to follow because it's a sleepwalking blob that will hit the fan when things....hit the fan.

A lot of it is projected expectations of deregulation/lower taxes/etc (e.g., see TSLA, though that's mostly a pump and dump scheme), so things are up now. There's far less expectation of the broader economic consequences to working people and consumers writ large or whether Trump 2.0 will actually do tariffs to the degree that he suggests ("it's just negotiating tactics"), but things can change quickly, especially things that can be done via executive order alone or, to a lesser degree, once they have Congress.

My hunch is that things will be rosy until around mid/late February; the market is high now because of the deregulatory expectations, the holiday season, the relatively solid earnings, and the continued strong Biden economy. That will give a little honeymoon period before we go back into the routine chaos of a Trump term.

At that point, who knows. We'll probably get tweets that will tank sectors, their buddies will buy up undervalued positions from the chaos, and then it'll get walked back, while others positions will stick and really bite. The whole point is just to line their pockets and get revenge, so it'll be an investor's dream.
 

garrobon

Ars Scholae Palatinae
702
Subscriptor++
So it seems like Musk has posted a "list" with avtual names of government employees he'll cut once Trump is in power and apparently a lot of other Trump cabinet members have lists of enemiesnames they want to cut as well.

Raiklin's targets are mostly people related to the "unethical vaccination programs"

What those lists includes lots of: women and members of minorities
What those lists inlcude less of: white men
I guess they have finally found one immigrant trying to take jobs from Americans /s :(
 

DarthSlack

Ars Legatus Legionis
23,283
Subscriptor++
Looks like we may get one of the authors of The Great Barrington Declaration as the head of the NIH. It's not going to be a great four years for medicine.

"President-elect Donald Trump has named Dr. Jay Bhattacharya as his pick to lead the National Institutes of Health."

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-transition-news-11-26-24#cm3z7pnfq000b3b6pxo020z5k

The slightly silver lining is that the head of NIH is a largely ceremonial role. They can do some tweaking around the edges, but the various institute heads are fairly independent.

Unless Bhattacharya decides that he needs to replace all the institute heads with Trump lickspittles. Then things are going to get spicy.
 

DarthSlack

Ars Legatus Legionis
23,283
Subscriptor++
What makes you think that won't be the next step?

I'm sure it probably is, but it's not going to be easy. Like I said, the various institutes have a reasonable degree of independence and can probably drag out a search for replacements for years. Remember, NIH has seen this shit before in the form of one Bernadine Healy who was appointed by George HW Bush.
 

VividVerism

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
8,607
I'm sure it probably is, but it's not going to be easy. Like I said, the various institutes have a reasonable degree of independence and can probably drag out a search for replacements for years. Remember, NIH has seen this shit before in the form of one Bernadine Healy who was appointed by George HW Bush.
If your goal is to have a functional government, sure. But if your goal is to destroy everything, it's perfectly acceptable to just skip the "finding a replacement" part and leave the job unfilled. Or appoint dozens of people to "acting" roles and just ignore time limits that are supposed to apply to how long a person can serve as an "acting" whatever.

You know, like the first Trump term.
 

DarthSlack

Ars Legatus Legionis
23,283
Subscriptor++
If your goal is to have a functional government, sure. But if your goal is to destroy everything, it's perfectly acceptable to just skip the "finding a replacement" part and leave the job unfilled. Or appoint dozens of people to "acting" roles and just ignore time limits that are supposed to apply to how long a person can serve as an "acting" whatever.

You know, like the first Trump term.

If the goal is to destroy everything, that's much easier to accomplish via cutting the budget across NIH than trying staffing maneuvers. Just don't fund NIH and it doesn't matter who the director is, the place doesn't function.
 

Lt_Storm

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
20,136
Subscriptor++
Capitalism benefits from recessions because it accelerates creative destruction and turns economies more productive. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1566014124000013
and "creative destruction" is, in this case, code for a billionaire buying you highly competitive business and shuttering it because he doesn't like competition. The "increase in production" is the higher price he can charge on his goods given his new monopoly.

Which is to say: once wealth is too concentrated, the unproductive legacy operation has the backing to last though unprofitable times while the nimble, scrappy, more productive competitor has less money lying around to cover a medium term loss in profitability. So that effect stops working so well. Indeed, at some point, we would expect the opposite.

Thats not specific to capitalism. Any economy would be forced to become more efficient with fewer resources available.
I really wished that things worked this way... Sadly, people like Elon Musk can afford to lose money for decades while small efficient companies won't be able to make payroll within a year or two.
 

dio82

Ars Legatus Legionis
10,328
Subscriptor
One thing that I am scratching my head about is Trump's vigor on tariffs. We all know how transactional he is, what is in it for him? Is he banking on bribes and attention for moneyed interests to carve out exceptions? Does his ego think that his base needs this red meat?

Probably it is something as banal as this being one of the few things he can do with ease as an executive order, and he has experience with it already. He'll just take a photocopy of his old XO and cross out China with a Sharpie and scribble Mexico and Canada onto it. Presto! A hard day's work done in five minutes 👍

Never underestimate the banality of evil.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Scifigod

iPilot05

Ars Praefectus
3,830
Subscriptor++
Besides the outright corruption in “negotiating” carve outs, it’s the ultimate regressive tax. Consumers and lower class people get higher prices, the wealthy get tax cuts. Don’t think tariffs will happen in a vacuum, it goes hand and hand with generating tax rates as the current scheme expires next year.
 

Shavano

Ars Legatus Legionis
68,867
Subscriptor
The slightly silver lining is that the head of NIH is a largely ceremonial role. They can do some tweaking around the edges, but the various institute heads are fairly independent.

Unless Bhattacharya decides that he needs to replace all the institute heads with Trump lickspittles. Then things are going to get spicy.
Isn't that the agenda?
If the goal is to destroy everything, that's much easier to accomplish via cutting the budget across NIH than trying staffing maneuvers. Just don't fund NIH and it doesn't matter who the director is, the place doesn't function.
Trump's been talking about killing funding of agencies without even getting Congress involved. Just direct people to not spend the money.
One thing that I am scratching my head about is Trump's vigor on tariffs. We all know how transactional he is, what is in it for him? Is he banking an bribes and attention for moneyed interests to carve out exceptions? Does his ego think that his base needs this red meat?
This is one of the observations that people who know him well have made about him. Saying he's transactional is an understatement. He seems to view everything as a win/lose competition. So he wants to threaten for instance Canada and Mexico because he thinks if they lose he wins. After all they're smaller, weaker economies than the United States and would certainly lose more than Americans if we cut them out of our markets. We'd only be modestly poorer but they'd be pretty well fucked. So threatening to fuck them that way is the obvious thing to do for him. The idea that both sides benefit from trade just isn't in his worldview.
 

karolus

Ars Legatus Legionis
10,849
Subscriptor++
One thing that I am scratching my head about is Trump's vigor on tariffs. We all know how transactional he is, what is in it for him? Is he banking on bribes and attention for moneyed interests to carve out exceptions? Does his ego think that his base needs this red meat?

Probably it is something as banal as this being one of the few things he can do with ease as an executive order, and he has experience with it already. He'll just take a photocopy of his old XO and cross out China with a Sharpie and scribble Mexico and Canada onto it. Presto! A hard day's work done in five minutes 👍

Never underestimate the banality of evil.

Most of the SB could agree about the problems broad tariffs can cause, as well as unanticipated side effects.

If there's only one thing Trump can do well, it's reading his audience and giving them what they want in order give him support. Whether what he's selling is good for his base is besides the point. He's the quintessential salesman—and has closed the deal (winning election), so he did what he needed to do. Whether his base has pondered caveat emptor is another thing. The tariff issue sounds good, but really isn't unless carefully planned. It's that type of nuance many voters aren't concerned with until bad things happen.
 

Bardon

Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
8,189
Subscriptor++
Yup. I'll be pulling some liquid funds out come January, but "The Market" is an enormously stupid thing to follow because it's a sleepwalking blob that will hit the fan when things....hit the fan.

A lot of it is projected expectations of deregulation/lower taxes/etc (e.g., see TSLA, though that's mostly a pump and dump scheme), so things are up now. There's far less expectation of the broader economic consequences to working people and consumers writ large or whether Trump 2.0 will actually do tariffs to the degree that he suggests ("it's just negotiating tactics"), but things can change quickly, especially things that can be done via executive order alone or, to a lesser degree, once they have Congress.

My hunch is that things will be rosy until around mid/late February; the market is high now because of the deregulatory expectations, the holiday season, the relatively solid earnings, and the continued strong Biden economy. That will give a little honeymoon period before we go back into the routine chaos of a Trump term.

At that point, who knows. We'll probably get tweets that will tank sectors, their buddies will buy up undervalued positions from the chaos, and then it'll get walked back, while others positions will stick and really bite. The whole point is just to line their pockets and get revenge, so it'll be an investor's dream.
My thanks, you've explained it far more eloquently than my attempt!

To be clear, I was not talking about worldwide mass exit of funds from the US, just that I and quite a few people I know do not feel that keeping money in US stocks is a wise move right now, with a few exceptions. I didn't intend a derail, mea culpa!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Macam

linnen

Ars Tribunus Militum
2,841
Subscriptor
Isn't that the agenda?

Trump's been talking about killing funding of agencies without even getting Congress involved. Just direct people to not spend the money.

This is one of the observations that people who know him well have made about him. Saying he's transactional is an understatement. He seems to view everything as a win/lose competition. So he wants to threaten for instance Canada and Mexico because he thinks if they lose he wins. After all they're smaller, weaker economies than the United States and would certainly lose more than Americans if we cut them out of our markets. We'd only be modestly poorer but they'd be pretty well fucked. So threatening to fuck them that way is the obvious thing to do for him. The idea that both sides benefit from trade just isn't in his worldview.
Trump's been talking about killing funding of agencies without even getting Congress involved. Just direct people to not spend the money.
If the last couple of sequestrations are any example, projects get wound down in order of business requirements with the contractors being cut loose first. The department then starts shedding contractors in non-essential areas first to keep running before anything else closes down. The lack of funding does allow for the contract's "Termination for Cause" to kick in.
 
You do understand that US markets are way up since the election, right?
Why would they not be?!?
Hasn't Trump talked about cutting company Tax etc. OK looked up yes I see to 15%
I'm sure he will be very business friendly, eg less regulations, less worker rights etc
The thing is. Will he be friendly for the workers that actually work for those businesses or the other people that actually buy stuff from those businesses? Hell No
The top 0.1% are gonna do just fine, it's the other 99.9% that are gonna be screwed
 

Wheels Of Confusion

Ars Legatus Legionis
75,625
Subscriptor
Trump team says a handful of his picks have been targeted with swatting and bomb threats (with no actual bombs found). Willing to bet it's a sign of things to come
He should get his buddy Elon to post a strongly-worded no-no about that kind of thing on Twitter. Make it clear to everyone in Twitter's vast reach that such behavior is unacceptable, un-American, and won't be tolerated by the powers that be.

If he can find the time between doxxing federal employees, that is.
 

Shavano

Ars Legatus Legionis
68,867
Subscriptor
If the last couple of sequestrations are any example, projects get wound down in order of business requirements with the contractors being cut loose first. The department then starts shedding contractors in non-essential areas first to keep running before anything else closes down. The lack of funding does allow for the contract's "Termination for Cause" to kick in.
I wasn't talking about contracting specifically. How it will play out in that kind of detail isn't really a thing I've thought about much. My company sells to the government though so maybe that's a thing I really should be thinking about.
 

Shavano

Ars Legatus Legionis
68,867
Subscriptor
Why would they not be?!?
Hasn't Trump talked about cutting company Tax etc. OK looked up yes I see to 15%
I'm sure he will be very business friendly, eg less regulations, less worker rights etc
The thing is. Will he be friendly for the workers that actually work for those businesses or the other people that actually buy stuff from those businesses? Hell No
The top 0.1% are gonna do just fine, it's the other 99.9% that are gonna be screwed
That's a thing you have to think about as an investor. It's complicated. Tariffs directly reduce profits in whatever amount you can't pass on to customers. There's a reason prices are what they are: they're what the market will bear, so probably you can't pass all of them along to customers. To the extent you can pass them along, they reduce the amount of goods your customer will buy so they reduce sales, which also reduces profits. Tariffs also trigger retaliatory tariffs and trade restrictions that reduce exports for US companies. It's impossible to predict how much.

It takes a 7% reduction in profits to fully offset a tax rate change from 21% (current) to 15% (proposed). If it triggers a recession, it could be a much bigger effect than that.
 
One thing that I am scratching my head about is Trump's vigor on tariffs. We all know how transactional he is, what is in it for him? Is he banking on bribes and attention for moneyed interests to carve out exceptions? Does his ego think that his base needs this red meat?

Probably it is something as banal as this being one of the few things he can do with ease as an executive order, and he has experience with it already. He'll just take a photocopy of his old XO and cross out China with a Sharpie and scribble Mexico and Canada onto it. Presto! A hard day's work done in five minutes 👍

Never underestimate the banality of evil.

It's more geopolitical than it is domestic but have you seen the response to Trump's tariffs. It's shocking... Trudeau has essentially apologized and Ursula Von der Leyen is going around basically advocating that the EU give in.

So far nothing Trump has done will raise prices.. he has only threatened... the question is what he will give in exchange for making tariffs less punitive.

I know it's fun to pretend that Trump is making all these deals in exchange for people staying in his hotels... but there are some very serious and very effective people involved in this government... including Scott Bessent, Bill Ackman, Howard Lutnick and many many others who don't make the news. There is no doubt in my mind that he has a master agenda. I used to work with people who went down to Mar a Lago every weekend during his first administration. They were some of the scariest and most effective and most successful business people I have ever come across in my life. Not to be underestimated.
 

Shavano

Ars Legatus Legionis
68,867
Subscriptor
There is no doubt in my mind that he has a master agenda. I used to work with people who went down to Mar a Lago every weekend during his first administration. They were some of the scariest and most effective and most successful business people I have ever come across in my life. Not to be underestimated.
Yet he was often frustrated in his attempts to effect policy and implemented tariffs that hurt many businesses including those who supported him. He may be capable of getting the advice of very smart people, but his track record is one of thinking he knows better.
edit: and those scary to you people who were going down to Mar a Lago may not have been doing so because they thought Trump would enact their policy. Maybe they were just hoping for early warnings of the adverse business conditions the were about to be hit with.
 
Yet he was often frustrated in his attempts to effect policy and implemented tariffs that hurt many businesses including those who supported him. He may be capable of getting the advice of very smart people, but his track record is one of thinking he knows better.
edit: and those scary to you people who were going down to Mar a Lago may not have been doing so because they thought Trump would enact their policy. Maybe they were just hoping for early warnings of the adverse business conditions the were about to be hit with.
Well I know them and at the time worked very closely with them... they love Trump and have made a great deal of money during his administration. And all of them supported him again.. If your argument was correct, they would not have supported his reelection.
 

papadage

Ars Legatus Legionis
44,236
Subscriptor++
Of course they would. Trump’s tax cuts and promises of derewgulation are no brainers if you’re a selfish plutocrat. They don‘t need to be very bright, just self-interested and amoral enough to take advantage to gain wealth At the expense of the many harms that Trump would bring.

Did they never given you the scumbag vibe, like the rest of Trump’s wealthy boosters?
 
Of course they would. Trump’s tax cuts and promises of derewgulation are no brainers if you’re a selfish plutocrat. They don‘t need to be very bright, just self-interested and amoral enough to take advantage to gain wealth At the expense of the many harms that Trump would bring.

Did they never given you the scumbag vibe, like the rest of Trump’s wealthy boosters?
Considering they run the country and employ just about every one of us, you can forgive me for treating them no differently than I do everyone else. And they are smart people... which to my detriment perhaps forces me to engage with them.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: Bardon
One thing that I am scratching my head about is Trump's vigor on tariffs. We all know how transactional he is, what is in it for him? Is he banking on bribes and attention for moneyed interests to carve out exceptions? Does his ego think that his base needs this red meat?

Probably it is something as banal as this being one of the few things he can do with ease as an executive order, and he has experience with it already. He'll just take a photocopy of his old XO and cross out China with a Sharpie and scribble Mexico and Canada onto it. Presto! A hard day's work done in five minutes 👍

Never underestimate the banality of evil.
History of tariffs in the United States
The United States pursued a protectionist policy from the beginning of the 19th century until the middle of the 20th century. Between 1861 and 1933, they had one of the highest average tariff rates on manufactured imports in the world. After 1942, the U.S. began to promote worldwide free trade. After the 2016 presidential election, the US increased trade protectionism.[2]
If you are a man like Trump in his position you might be inclined to reproduce the conditions that helped to make the gilded age in the vain hope that you achieve another gilded age. It's a nostalgia for responsible men of yonder days and it's a rejection of most democratic changes since the New Deal era, and it's very on brand for somebody like him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: scarletjinx
History of tariffs in the United States

If you are a man like Trump in his position you might be inclined to reproduce the conditions that helped to make the gilded age in the vain hope that you achieve another gilded age. It's a nostalgia for responsible men of yonder days and it's a rejection of most democratic changes since the New Deal era, and it's very on brand for somebody like him.

Speaking as someone who trained to be an economist in my undergrad years, US tariff policy was not responsible for the gilded age. At least, when I learned about it, the gilded age was primarily a function of the gold standard, currency shocks and as usual exacerbated by over-leverage in wall street.

Look to the 1907, 1855 San Francisco panics... and of course the railroad panics
https://tontinecoffeehouse.com/2023/01/09/san-franciscos-panic-of-1855/https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...anic-of-1907/AB2C757125EAE9DECB624073CA300097
or maybe you're talking about something else?

The US has always been an outlier in tariff literature... we are self-sufficient enough that models for smaller countries don't apply.