Brother denies using firmware updates to brick printers with third-party ink

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Charles Hunter

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  • #84
    I have an MFC-L3750CDW purchased in 2020. A "genuine" Brother 4-pack (1K,1C,1M,1Y) currently retails for AUD640.39 but is on sale at my usual supplier for AUD525.12. The same supplier is also selling a 12-pack (3K,3C,3M,3Y) of "compatible" toner for AUD465.05 (RRP AUD534.54).

    The closest current model is the MFC-L3760CDW which is currently selling at AUD499.00 from a local office supplier. Thus, a "refill" of genuine toner costs more than a new printer. While that price relationship isn't unusual in the printer market, I still find it ridiculous.

    Until very recently, I used genuine toner but the 3X price disparity is at the point where I can't justify that. If Brother want to make money from toner sales then their marketing department needs to re-do their sums. I'd probably pay a 1.5X premium for genuine. Anything more gets into the realm of plain old-fashioned price gouging.

    My firmware is 1.59 (after 1.56 in this article) but I have always had update-checking disabled. Other than "non-genuine" getting a mention on the supplies screen, compatible toner doesn't seem to have made any difference to print quality or other features. It prints. It copies. It scans. Still, it's early days in my "compatible" journey (1 cartridge so far) so maybe it will degrade over time.

    Mostly, the 3750CDW has behaved flawlessly. I only have two complaints. The first is the WiFi connection is rubbish (comes and goes like the north wind). I solved that by putting one of my WiFi mesh base stations next to it and running an Ethernet cable between the two. Printer behaves perfectly when it thinks it's wired. The other is some weird thing with the power cable where, sometimes, usually after grid outages, the printer refuses to turn on until several iterations of physical disconnect/reconnect of the AC power cord and mucking about with power-on/off on the console. I'd like to put it behind a UPS to save that angst but the startup inrush current overwhelms the UPS.

    Someone here mentioned compatible cartridges "spewing" toner. I had that very problem with a genuine cartridge. Although Brother promptly replaced the cartridge, I don't think it's fair to claim that "spewing" problems are confined to compatibles.
     
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    David Mayer

    David Mayer

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  • #86
    chucklepie2 said:
    Why buy a printer with cartridges when for majority of uses you can buy a printer with ink tanks. The ink is about 50 times as cheap and you'll never get a firmware error. the reason why they screw everyone so bad is their policy of selling these chipped printers as loss leaders.

    My Epson ET28xx is superb.
    Click to expand...
    Are ink printers still slow when compared to equally priced toner printers? Does ink still have a significantly lower shelf life than toner? Are there ink printers that can match the contrast of toner? Are there ink printers that have pages ready to handle as fast as toner?
     
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    GooseGoesHonk

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  • #89
    David Mayer said:
    Are ink printers still slow when compared to equally priced toner printers? Does ink still have a significantly lower shelf life than toner? Are there ink printers that can match the contrast of toner? Are there ink printers that have pages ready to handle as fast as toner?
    Click to expand...
    Add:
    Can ink printers handle office workloads (it's not just speed either, it's durability)?
     
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    Boskone

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  • #91
    Dark Jaguar said:
    3rd party toner IS genuine toner. I don't need Honda to make all my engine oil, why should I need Brother to make all my toner?
    Click to expand...
    You would want Honda making your oil of all you knew is that you're getting oil in a whatever size container but didn't know the specs. With third-party ringer you are getting toner, but it is equivalent to not knowing if the oil is synthetic 0w20 or regular 20w50.

    (Side note: I'm pretty lax about what motor oil is in my trucks, what type and additives, and frequently run them well past recommended change dates...sometimes by several multiples of the recommended change period. But I made the choices rather than essentially rolling the dice. It's worked out for me, my trucks have lasted 12 to 15 years, and no less than 320k miles, but that doesn't mean everyone has my luck and/or abilities.)
     
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    Akeem

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  • #95
    I was quite a fan of Brother laser printers.

    I can confirm one of the issues for a Brother MFC-L2710DW and a Brother DCP-L3550CDW.
    Since these printers were used frequently and often for large print jobs, I opted for popular third-party toners (and drums) from Amazon, as Brother’s own toner was about four times more expensive. The printers worked fine with these.

    Both devices had received firmware updates before without any issues.

    However, after a specific firmware update, each printer immediately stopped working. Replacing the toner with other third-party cartridges I had in stock didn’t resolve the issue. I then bought Brother toner, and the devices started working again. The third-party toners never worked again and were discarded.
    I'm guessing newer 3rd party toners might work again because they have newer chips?

    Having to throw away a stock of third-party toners and spend €200 on Brother toner for a color laser printer led me to rethink my approach on trying to print cheap. I ended up giving away the Brother MFC-L2710DW, relegating the DCP-L3550CDW to backup duties, and switching to Ecotank printers as my primary printers.

    Unlike laser printers, Ecotank ink doesn’t contain a chip. The cost per page for ink is 1/125th (??) of the cost of laser toner, though I have no idea if page "coverage" is calculated similar for these? This is what they advertise in the listing titles:
    • €200 Brother TN-243CMYK Original Toner Cartridge Prints up to 1,000 Pages
    • €40 Epson C13T03R640 Ink Cartridge (4) CMYB 337ml 25,500 Pages
    As a bonus, the ecotanks also print photos. I prefer to pay more upfront to keep the cost of consumables down.
    So now I'm a fan of ecotanks and unlike most in this comment section, I do believe the initial report. And Ars has 2 more anonymous online claims.
     
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    A_Very_Tired_Geek

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  • #96
    David Mayer said:
    Are ink printers still slow when compared to equally priced toner printers? Does ink still have a significantly lower shelf life than toner? Are there ink printers that can match the contrast of toner? Are there ink printers that have pages ready to handle as fast as toner?
    Click to expand...
    They aren't comparable. The liquid in ink wells will will dry up whether they're in a tank or cartridge. I think this person is conflating ink jet with laser printers. It's a weird post. But the point I think they're trying to make: they don't like having to pay retail for artificially imposed consumables which is a valid argument, just like preferring to use high quality materials is to certain other customers who might only buy OEM supplies because of better quality controls is also valid. Just having someone arbitrarily force a decision is... usually more about a company's business plan than quality assurance.
     
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    evan_s

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  • #100
    I've had no problems with Bother laser printer that uses the now previous gen toner cartridges TN660. They don't even have a chip in them so I don't think Brother can even tell if it's a third party toner or not. Ironically, I do have a notification that I have an update to install but when I select it the install button stays greyed out so I can't install it.

    For this type of thing I assume it's something else broken for these people or some misunderstanding. If Brother was actually pushing this out in a firmware we'd be seeing a lot more complaints than just a handful of examples.

    Also the title seems to be wrong as there are no ink jet printers mentioned so there's no third party ink involved. It's all laser printers with toner not ink.
     
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    Mrbonk

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  • #102
    just another rmohns said:
    for me, the skepticism started when i saw “Louis Rossman”. His videos are attention-bait and i’ve found them to be generally pretty awful and a waste of my time.
    Click to expand...
    Rossman is definitely not just doing stuff for clicks. He doesn't make money on YouTube. No incentive to make clickbait bs like other big YTers.

    He doesn't always get things right and will often admit a mistake if he made one. Doesn't push people to use things that would personally benefit himself.
    Unlike so so so many other people. Some titles have to be clickbait to get actual attention for real issues. And if you have actually watched anything he has made in the last 5 years, things he contributed to and still think it's attention bait and not legitimate grievances. I have a bridge to sell you.

    Edit:grammar
     
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    King_V

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  • #105
    Here's the thing; I don't know what to do with my printer.

    I bought it used, either in 2011 or 2012. Brother MFC-8890DW, and it has worked amazingly until about a couple of years or so ago. Fading, which was clearly an indication of low toner.

    I try not to create more waste than necessary, so, I thought I was safe with a toner refill kit. The kit was easy enough to use. BUT - when I printed afterward, it was still kind of faded and irregular, though with some light-gray bands on the left and right edge.

    So, my conundrum is that, do I have to just get a new toner cartridge, or, is there something wrong with the drum unit? Also, given the age of the printer, and if it is the drum, do I bother putting that kind of money into it? Did the toner refill kit mess things up?

    The latest drivers, which work on Windows 10, are Windows 7 era drivers. On my Linux box, printing isn't a problem, but the Scanner program doesn't recognize it as an available scanner.


    I am going to eventually go for a color laser replacement, from Brother, eventually. I don't print a lot. I'd be perfectly willing to buy refill kits from Brother if the toner is guaranteed to not cause problems. I really would prefer not to have to replace cartridges, throwing away hunks of plastic, as infrequently as that might be for me.
     
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    Charles Hunter

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  • #106
    chucklepie2 said:
    Why buy a printer with cartridges when for majority of uses you can buy a printer with ink tanks. The ink is about 50 times as cheap and you'll never get a firmware error. the reason why they screw everyone so bad is their policy of selling these chipped printers as loss leaders.

    My Epson ET28xx is superb.
    Click to expand...
    Fascinating. In the mid 1990s when my LaserWriter broke, I started using inkjets. I always went with "one tank per colour" models rather than "once one colour runs out the entire cartridge is useless" models. Canon. Epson. Something else too that I can't remember. Tried them all. Endless trouble. Nozzles gum up and wont clear. Ink dripping everywhere. Followed every bit of YouTube advice I could find about keeping them in working nick. Went through megabucks in always-genuine cartridges too.

    Finally, after a printer that didn't last more than 3 months I got jack of it and researched colour laser - settling on Brother. That was 2020. Haven't looked back. Had I but known, I could've avoided at least some of those intervening 20 years of inkjet misery.

    Never. Ever. Going. Back.
     
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    Mrbonk

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  • #112
    Dark Jaguar said:
    3rd party toner IS genuine toner. I don't need Honda to make all my engine oil, why should I need Brother to make all my toner?
    Click to expand...
    Can't believe the downvotes for this. It's truth. If you want customers to believe your jacked up prices are worth it, educate and tell them WHY. We are not all idiots. Dont just say shit like "it's better, we only certify performance with our own proprietary junk" or whatever stock boilerplate nonsense. It just makes the customer feel belittled and justified in not trusting them. The Brother tech that posted above said more in one personal forum post than any printer mfg has ever said officially about what they do to ensure their own products are higher quality. Regardless of whether it's patented BS or not. Cool you mixed a couple a known things that already existed together and it improves some aspect of performance. I don't think that deserves patent protection. That's drug marker level of malicious in my eyes. If I had a nickel for every patented drug i have seen in recent years that was literally just two existing medications put into the same package.

    And if you don't go out of your way to lockdown your devices in the worst anti consumer ways possible then people should be able to get toner that is compatible anywhere they want. People aren't printing commercial art books or text books with these things after all.

    Maybe it's time the printer industry is honest with people about their game and start charging for the printers at a proper profit margin instead of screwing people over , over toner.
     
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    Pishaw

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  • #113
    mrkite77 said:
    Disagree. The ImageWriter II I have hooked up to a raspberry pi still works after 40 years.
    Click to expand...
    I used an ImageWriter and Apple II in college. Paid $400 for the set. I could put it in the car and drive to the library. Sold it for $400 when I was done. College was a lot different before the internet.

    I have an inkjet now, Canon. The printer was free, and the ink it came with cost $50. It prints a mighty fine document.
     
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    Mrbonk

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  • #114
    SteveBigandTall said:
    Of late? he's always been like this.
    Click to expand...
    I like how ignoring evidence is the same as not having evidence. Trumpian levels of stable genius there.
    Just even a recent example, Bambu 3d printer company?
    https://wiki.rossmanngroup.com/wiki/Bambu_Lab_Authorization_Control_System

    Amazon removing the ability to download Kindle books so you can't break the drm of something you own?
    https://wiki.rossmanngroup.com/inde...e_removes_download_feature_of_purchased_books

    Pages are full of references and evidence.
    I mean if Brother wants to prove their aren't sabotaging their printers they can easily do so instead of just hand wringing "false information! Fake news!" A few anecdotal user experiences data does not make of course but "just trust me" isn't a good response. They could easily offer a way to downgrade firmware so people can check themselves if something in the firmware caused a bug, they could do things like not updating firmware automatically without consent so people who don't have problems with how it works now. Not have to worry a firmware update breaks something on accident.
    I have had nightmare experiences with firmware updates I can't roll back on a device that cause catastrophic problems that either never get fixed or take an unreasonable amount of time to get fixed. For example 2020 model year Sony OLED. When Sony out of the blue issued a firmware update that moved to Android 10 the firmware completely botched input processing. Input lag went from a nice 20ms average to a fluctuating 60-200+ms. It made playing games basically impossible. Support was no help and after nearly a year I was about to give up and bought a 2nd hand motherboard hoping it still had Android 9 present and would fix the input lag. But before I could install it a random firmware update came out , made no mention of input latency fixes and having nothing to lose updated, busted out the lag tester and thankfully it was fixed. But that's just because I was lucky enough Sony decided to continue to update the firmware 4 years after release. If they never posted another update after the one that broke it, I would have had a device that was 1000+$ become nearly useless for half it's primary purpose.

    /Shrug
     
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    ethd

    ethd

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  • #115
    It's hard to believe that Brother would trash the goodwill they've built up so readily and then lie about issuing such a firmware update and say that these accusations are the lies.

    I have seen videos of Louis Rossmann having knee-jerk reactions to things that are a lot more nuanced than he's willing to give them credit for.

    Pending further journalistic investigation into this, I'm going to lean towards Brother being in the right here. Third-party cartridges are frequently a minefield in the best of times, and while I think HP sucks ass for how draconian they are about how you use your own damn printer I can also understand why printer companies are so leary about customers using third-party cartridges. If it screws up the printer people are quick to blame the printer manufacturer when a poorly-produced cartridge may be the problem.

    However I would like a deep dive to prove that a firmware update wasn't what bricked these printers. Because companies absolutely do wreck their goodwill in one fell swoop all the time. Nvidia seems to be trying to do that to their gaming market as we speak.
     
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    Pishaw

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  • #116
    Mrbonk said:
    Can't believe the downvotes for this. It's truth. If you want customers to believe your jacked up prices are worth it, educate and tell them WHY. We are not all idiots. Dont just say shit like "it's better, we only certify performance with our own proprietary junk" or whatever stock boilerplate nonsense. It just makes the customer feel belittled and justified in not trusting them. The Brother tech that posted above said more in one personal forum post than any printer mfg has ever said officially about what they do to ensure their own products are higher quality. Regardless of whether it's patented BS or not. Cool you mixed a couple a known things that already existed together and it improves some aspect of performance. I don't think that deserves patent protection. That's drug marker level of malicious in my eyes. If I had a nickel for every patented drug i have seen in recent years that was literally just two existing medications put into the same package.

    And if you don't go out of your way to lockdown your devices in the worst anti consumer ways possible then people should be able to get toner that is compatible anywhere they want. People aren't printing commercial art books or text books with these things after all.

    Maybe it's time the printer industry is honest with people about their game and start charging for the printers at a proper profit margin instead of screwing people over , over toner.
    Click to expand...
    The fact you would say 'propriety junk' tells me you have no fucking idea how things are developed nor made or how and why they work.

    Would you say patented tech in any field is 'proprietary junk'? Innovation is nothing but 'proprietary junk'? Having created something is worth nothing to you?

    Look, printers are like anything else: You can buy cheap parts, but THEY MAY NOT FUCKING WORK. That's why they're cheap. Not all cheap parts are junk. But there are a lot of dishonest people out there.

    You have to ask yourself, am I going to buy toner and a drum from Trump? Just because it's cheap?
     
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    elaineonkauai

    elaineonkauai

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  • #117
    I've been in this insane IT realm since the punch-card and paper tape era; I do remember seeing Brother as top-drawer for a number of years (post dot-matrix), but also (being in the IT biz then) noticed distinct changes a couple (or more) years ago, and I frankly don't believe their "we didn't do it" response. Their attitude and approach (particularly toward Linux folks, it seems) sorta kind went sour, and I found myself helping more folks just get their printers minimally functioning. I've always needed full-function enterprise grade printers, and have now settled on Epson, at least until they go south. I now run a Work Force (three years), no problems. And Ubuntu, before you ask...:cool:
     
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    ERIFNOMI

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  • #118
    errgh said:
    My Brother printer is updated every other month, since I have it set open with some ports and it has never had an issue with 3rd party toner nor has its scanner or part been deactivated. Occasionally I will find OEM toner on a companies bankruptcy sale but usually I use 3rd party off amazon. Its a MFC L 3710

    I think this is just a case where people needed a new thing to be angry about for the month and didnt bother to check 3rd or 4th party claims from complainers who probably dont understand the difference between shitty aftermarket ink and OEM ink. Like can you blame Brother if the aftermarket ink is so bad that it prints like shit and wont calibrate? But other aftermarket, probably more pricy ones, calibrate just fine?
    Click to expand...
    You have your printer exposed to the internet?

    Do you jab yourself with random needles found in the street as well?
     
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    A Man A Plan A Canal Panama

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  • #120
    I would gladly pay a little extra $ to Brother for a working printer!!

    Last week I threw my HP Envy out the 2nd story window. What a satisfying Crunch! Crash! Tinkle tinkle!

    That fing PoS never worked right.

    Last straw was needing to replace clogged ink carts. The new ones were also clogged. These new ones were a swap at the local Staples, for the last set of clogged carts

    30+ years ago my LaserJet 4M and ScanJet Iicx worked so well.
     
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