BMW, Mini, Rolls-Royce, Toyota, and Lexus are switching EV plugs
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Part of the integration is that the other brands are working with Tesla to enable active route planning in their navigation systems and billing via your car's app/account, ie FordPass.
Presumably this is something Tesla is requesting to allow things like routing around broken or congested chargers, and to enable quick and easy payments similar to the Tesla owner experience today.
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same signals, different charge rates - much like your Apple international laptop ships with a universal psu + plug , but sources a different connector for each country (replaced by USB power on most laptops now)
but here in the us, this was actually a surprise end-around , as we are still months away from IRA adding nacs (just because its a standard doesn't mean its subsidized)!
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BMW i3. Mini E. The old Kia Soul EV (don't buy one). The Kona and Niro EVs were a little longer range than that.
There have been low range EVs.
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Bolt has had enough battery issues I'm not comfortable with it. Leaf doesn't have the proper battery management.
The Soul EV would work (as we get a heat pump for it in Canada) but the wife doesn't like the look of it.
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Yeah. I've driven both the Kona and the Niro - when I got out of the Niro this summer I immediately thought it would be a good fit for the wife. She's about 4-5 years from actually getting something new so we will see where the market has brought us by then.
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Given that a simple adapter could cover them now it's more likely related to either Tesla maintaining their charger advantage a little longer, giving themselves more time to expand the network size for the new influx of users or because their integration teams can only onboard so many manufacturers at a time.
Just spitballing
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The v4 Superchargers that Tesla has been starting to deploy recently do have longer cables. They also include payment terminals on the stall and have built in NACS to CSS1 adapters. The v4 stalls pretty much address all the pain points with the current v3 and v2 stalls in regard to non-Tesla use.
Tesla V4 Superchargers:
Payment terminal on V4 stalls and Magic Dock (built in NACS to CCS1 Adapter):
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That is exactly what Fast DC charging is. An expensive external AC to DC converter. They generally start off at 50kW and go up from there. I expect that you could do a 20kW or 30kW charger like that if you wanted but no one has seemed interested in that. Most vehicles seem to size their onboard charger so that you can fully charge the vehicle over night. Roughly 10% to 100% in 6-8 hours or so.
Maybe this will change in the future but I think early on it makes sense to build it into the car. Early on there are a lot more potential charging spots with all the existing electrical infrastructure that can be used for charging than there are BEVs. Having no or a tiny built in charger would mean all those locations would need a charger installed to offer a decent charging experience.
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Evan beat me to the comment about that being what DCFC is, so I won't belabor that point any further, but don't you also already need the inverter in the car for regenerative braking? I'd always assumed that they used the same inverter... although I suppose the power coming from the EV motor is pretty much invariably 3 phase (from what I've seen).
I don't know enough about inverter design to know if you could build an inverter that could handle both 3 phase and split phase, or if at that point you're better off with two separate systems. Probably the latter. So that might be a relevant point in Europe and other parts of the world, but less in the USA
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Hear your concern but I think it will be ok (and honestly its weird you seem to be getting a lot of downvotes for airing this concern...) Its going to be years before largenumbers non Tesla's are filling those charging bays and in that time Tesla will be able to expand the system now that they have access to IRA money as well as fix up older stations to have longer cords. I'm also sure the software will in part help with this. Tesla will know what car needs longer cords and the software will direct drivers accordingly. The supercharger system is one of the best things Tesla does. I suppose its sorta boring so Elon keeps his crazy away from it.
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The base model current gen Leaf is 150 mile range with older models being even lower. Overall the US market seems to have focused on 200+ mile BEVs.
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This thread is not the place for people from Europe and the US to square off and tell the other how they’re doing it wrong when it comes to electricity or anything else. Take that to the Soapbox or Battlefront.
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This doesn't make any sense as to why I shouldn't be able to charge at a station today though. Like sure, lets get that integrated, but why not let me charge in the mean time? That information isn't there in the Euro superchargers yet, and yet they work with non-Tesla cars.
If that was Ford and GM's mindset why can I charge on the vast majority of other networks which are not a part of the Blue Oval charging network? It doesn't make any sense for Ford or GM to be the ones holding back from Tesla enabling charging in the US to non-Tesla cars.
Plug and Charge over CCS does work, today. Every time I've charged at an EA station its been with plug and charge. And even then, today, Euro superchargers can just be activated through the app. So this once again isn't a valid argument for why I can't charge at one.
It seems to me the only reason why I can't do it (other than an adapter from a reputable brand just not being on the market yet) is 100% because Tesla just doesn't want me to.
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There's not much if any demand for ICE cars with that limited range. Most of us need a car that can do any realistic thing we regularly do. I can't have my everyday commuter plus my trip/hauling/rough terrain car. Too much money. And it isn't like going more than 100 miles round trip is some vanishingly rare thing for people in the US (IDK about elsewhere). Christ, my in laws are ~150 miles round trip after they moved to be closer to us and the grandkids
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There are generally two inverters: one for charging that converts the 120v/240v AC to 400v/800v DC, and one for the motor that converts the battery DC to 3-phase AC.
For my EV6 the charging inverter is different part numbers for outside the US.
Having the inverter in the charger means every single one needs one, which dramatically increases the price. The L2 EVSEs just pass through the current unmodified. They just tell the car how much current is available and do safety checks (off until handshake complete and overcurrent protection).
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Tesla does allow this at some chargers that have the CCS adapter dock built in.
What's new is enabling CCS protocol communications, and charge session activation, at all of the other V3 Superchargers.
The main answer as to why early 2024 instead of today is "we don't know", but I would guess Tesla needs to do some upgrades and testing to make sure all of these chargers and their various revisions can communicate both via CCS and the legacy Tesla protocols to support both groups of vehicles.
A CCS-compatible charger and CCS-compatible vehicle can also still have variances in communication protocols and compatibility, so a bit of validation testing between Tesla and these manufacturers also makes sense before telling everyone that they can count on all of these chargers working for their vehicle.
The standalone NACS to CCS adapters also do not exist yet, and need to be validated and manufactured.
Ford and GM have both said they will have access in Early or Q1 2024, so it's not too far off.
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Like I said, it's a key perk of buying a Tesla, in exchange for giving part of it up, Tesla is getting something else. Even in Europe, not all stations are open to other cars.
Also this person mentioned routing and in the future I believe electronic queuing will be available. It's important to load balance chargers so you don't get people waiting for others while a mile away another station is empty
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I wouldn't buy a CHAdeMO car personally. But if it's only for local driving, it's not too big of a deal. The old Soul EV has all the same downsides as the Lead which is why I said don't buy it.
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That larger initial investment might make sense for one charger in your garage. But for an airport to install 500 chargers in a parking garage that would significantly increase the cost of that infrastructure, versus today's simple EVSEs which are basically fancy 240V outlets.
I also think it makes more sense to have the expensive complex bit of tech in your car which 1) gets a new warranty each time you trade for a newer one and 2) can be driven to a dealer for service, rather than attached to your house where it must be serviced in-place.
And I have definitely done a lot of charging off of normal outlets, both 120V outlets at cabins or a family member's house, or higher power outlets at campgrounds. Having the inverter with me makes that a heck of a lot easier.
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On the billing side of things most existing Tesla chargers have no UI on them at all. The billing process is normally handled by the charger and car communicating. I believe the CCS capable magic chargers allow you to start from an app but that's just a small portion of their chargers. They might be able to implement this on their other chargers but it would probably require a software update and no idea if that can just be pushed remotely or is even possible without hardware changes too.
There's also the communications standard the charger uses to talk with the car to negotiate the current and voltage etc. The NCAS standard uses the same protocol that CCS1 uses. Tesla also has a proprietary protocol that it used initially. We know the CCS capable magic chargers can speak the CCS1/NACS protocol but the older chargers may not be able to. Again it may be a software and/or hardware update to enable that on their chargers.
There's probably a fair bit of upgrading going at the tesla stations too while working on all the integration issues with the other OEMs.
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I don’t get this discussion about inverters. AC/DC is a rectifier (or a rock band), not an inverter.
Cars with an inverter onboard are using it to power AC motors or to send power V2H.
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You're not looking very hard - but larger cities will get serviced much earlier, prior to IRA funds
NYC:
https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/p...cle-charging-networks-september-08-2021.shtml
Boston:
https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/12/...-chargers-ev-electric-vehicles-melrose-boston
LA:
https://lalights.lacity.org/connected-infrastructure/ev_stations.html
Chicago is still figuring out what to do with ira, but has plans:
https://chicago.suntimes.com/2022/8...etwork-infrastructure-climate-change-stations
the rest of the country is still working on this, but any decent-sized city will eventually get these (some later ira, once costs have been reduced)
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100 mile viable range requires a 200 mile EPA range battery, or something in that ballpark.
The reasons are:
1) You aren't going to get EPA range, especially in the winter
2) You aren't going to drive until you have 0% remaining range, and a good safety margin is around 30 miles
3) Unless you have a LFP battery, you aren't going to routinely charge to 100%. More like 80% to 90%
So with a 100 (EPA) mile battery:
- Lose 10% because you aren't going to get EPA miles
- Lose 10% to only routinely charge to 90%
- Lose 20% for winter driving (could be 40% when really cold)
Keep back 30 miles for safety margin and your 100 (EPA) mile battery is only reliable for 35 miles of range in the winter, and 51 in the summer.
With a 200 EPA mile battery, that becomes 130 miles, less a 30 mile safety margin and now reliable for 100 miles in the winter and 132 miles in the summer.
And yes, you may quibble about my deductions, but the general sense is short range BEVs aren't viable.
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They have a Tesla already so that would be the road trip car so CHAdeMO wouldn't be an issue for them on the Leaf.
For an ICE the difference between 100 mile range and 200+ or even 500+ is maybe a couple bucks for a larger gas tank. It might not even be that for a large auto manufacturer. There is basically 0 benefit to sticking a small gas tank in an ICE.
For a BEV the difference between 24kW or 30kW battery like a gen 1 Leaf for 100ish mile range BEV and a 50-60kWh+ battery in a 200-250 mile range BEV is thousands of dollars of batteries and probably more savings if it's specifically designed as a short range BEV rather than being a 200+ mile BEV with a smaller pack in it.
You mention the in Laws so I assume you are married and are probably a two car family. You could have a 100 mile range BEV for local stuff and daily driving and have a longer range BEV or ICE or Hybrid and use that for the trip to the in Laws. A short range BEV isn't going to work for everyone but I think it still has more of a place than you'd think from what is actually available to purchase.
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Not really. I'd be satisfied with a dildo shaped dongle if it gave me access to the Supercharger network. And not because of the uptime. But more chargers I have access to, the more likely I will be able to stop at a convenient one.
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Basically they don't get anywhere because despite battery packs being a big part of the cost of an electric car, using a 100 mile battery doesn't reduce cost enough.
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If you only have a 100mi EV, chances are pretty good it's going to be used for local driving. In their situations, you can actually beat the EPA range because the EPA range is a combined city and highway driving rating. If you're not blasting down the highway at 70mph, and you're not driving a car with a hugely optimistic rating (Tesla, some Kia/Hyundai), you will easily hit the rates range if not exceed it.
If you need the full range, you'll absolutely charge to 100%. That's fine. Cap it at whatever gives you enough range for your normal needs or whatever you're comfortable with and if you need to go longer, tell the car to top off before you leave.
Likewise, when you're driving in the winter, you can precondition the car while it's still plugged in. Get the cabin up to temp and heat the battery all while pulling power from your home instead of the battery. That takes care of a lot of the winter losses.
You don't need to leave a 30 mile buffer. You can roll into your home completely dead if you need to (there's actually a reserve, except again Tesla). Because you can charge at home. You don't have to worry about leaving enough to get back to a gas station.
Saying you lose 50% range is ridiculous. Our 277mi range EV can do the 220-230 mile drive to my wife's parents' house in the dead of winter just fine. By your numbers, we could only go 150 miles in the winter. Horseshit.
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It's doing more than rectifying. It has to switch voltages too.
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EPA vs real world range has a lot of factors but 10% off just because you say so seems a bit unfair and designed to get a desired outcome. Tesla does seem to be very optimistic in their ratings but other BEVs seem to be realistic or conservative with people reporting matching or exceeding the EPA estimate.
The 30 mile safety margin also seems excessive and designed to get the desired outcome. If I'm going 15 miles round trip why do a need a safety margin of twice that? The safety margin really should be relative to the total range. Probably something like 10% and most of the time it's better for battery health to not drain it down to 0% anyway.
I don't disagree with you completely. You definitely shouldn't get an EV that barely meets your range needs as it isn't going to be a good experience but even using your numbers a 35 mile range covers the average commute in the US so plenty of people could be fine with that. I would also certainly encourage any potential buyer to understand this.
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I’m curious about the cooling. Tesla plays a bit fast and loose with ‘rule of thumb’ wire thickness using thermometers to detect any problems and drop the amount of power drawn.
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They can get away with using thinner cables because they don't usually stay at max load very long (charger power decreases as the battery fills) and the cables in v3 and v4 Superchargers are liquid cooled. At max load, v3's deliver about 625 amps. That equals roughly 250kW for a 400V car. I know for sure that the cable is not technically big enough for 625 amps. They have to actively cool it. If the cooling breaks down, the charger derates to the rated capacity of the cable... usually around 200 or 300 amps.
The big problem with using thinner cables is dealing with the heat. If you can reliably deal with the heat using smaller cables, then it should be fine. Tesla isn't the only one, I know higher powered EA stations use liquid cooled cables too (when they aren't broken) to get away with using thinner cables.
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An inverter is the opposite direction (DC-> AC). The battery charger does AC->DC and is essentially just a switch mode power supply where the output voltage is controlled by the charge controller on the battery pack. There is no inverter or anything like that.
As for why you put them in the car, the SMPS is controlled by battery charge controller for safety reasons, so I think it is a lot cheaper to bring the AC in and do the conversion all in one place than to have some way for the battery back to talk to an external party power supply. Probably safer too. Of course that doesn't work for DC fast charging, but superchargers aren't a couple hundred bucks on Amazon either.
There are other benefits too, like being able to plug into normal wall outlets, which is really useful in europe. Even here in the USA we have a plugin hybrid that we charge exclusively off of 120V. Works fine.
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I remember Ford sold (maybe still does?) a car in Brazil that could be powered by gasoline, CNG, 100% ethanol, and I think maybe one other type of fuel. Back in the early 2000’s Boone Pickens published a plan to shift the US to CNG vehicles and part of me wishes that had taken off because of how cheap CNG is in the US thanks to our shale patches. I think he thought CNG would be used as a transition to hydrogen/electric vehicles but after he died there was no one left to push the plan anymore. Also no one in power was interested lol.
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Major nitpck: an inverter converts DC to AC.
So the onboard charger which converts AC to DC isn't an inverter.
(Then again some of these converters are reversible so...)
What is an inverter is the DC to AC converter which powers the electric motors.
It's also used as "charger" during regenerative braking which involves much higher power levels than AC charging.
There are ways to repurpose the motors' converters for AC charging. However it also comes with lots of downsides so few cars actually use it.
Examples of cars that did are the Tesla Roadster and the Renault Zoe (the early 43 kW AC charging model, not sure about the 22 kW AC charging models).
Hyundai/Kia also use the motors' converter as DC/DC booster to be able to charger their "800 V" battery packs from 500 V DC fast chargers.
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OK so there's a transformer too. I presume you can do both in one process nicely; I never got beyond knowing enough to talk to someone who actually knows what's going on.
Point is, an inverter normally takes in DC and outputs a waveform, which is rather more complicated than the reverse since you're creating information.
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