After ruining Android messaging, Google says iMessage is too powerful

Google failed to compete with iMessage for years. Now it wants Apple to play nice.

Read the whole story

 

[Hydrargyrum]

imessage is only a thing in the US. Everywhere else is either SMS or whatsapp.

Well in Australia Apples market share has grown to 45.7% according to the Australian Financial Review. I don't know what point your trying to make, let me guess that Android is solely used outside the U.S. Hate to break it to you, but you're wrong.

Annecdotally my network of fam & friends is team blue bubble. Also I tried the green bubble phones and did not like them, so I switched back.

They aren't talking about Android vs. iOS, they are saying people who use iPhones outside the US don't use iMessage. I don't live outside the US so I don't know how true that is, but I've commonly heard this.

The person you're replying to is from Australia, and so am I.

If anything Apple's dominance is even stronger here. I almost don't know anybody who uses Android or a PC. I mean there are a few, but they are extremely rare.

And if you ask why they use Android, it's normally one of two reasons:

1. they don't really want a smartphone at all, but that's the only phone you can get so they picked a $100 Android phone
2. they think of their phone as a fashion item and want something more unique than just a case

I’m also Australian. I think Apple might be dominant in some subcultures or socioeconomic contexts but not all. I think a slight but not overwhelming majority (55%-70%, perhaps?) of my regular contacts are on Android. Among my parents and siblings it’s 50/50.

On the other hand PC overwhelmingly dominates Macs among my personal social circle, and I’ve only seen Macs in my professional context three times - and that was one machine running Windows via Boot Camp and two machines being used as RDP clients to Windows boxes!

 

[Hexaemeron]

Personally, I'd probably find it very difficult to date someone not using iOS devices because I don't have a mobile number but do have a variety of iOS devices at hand.

Clarification: This means that I can exchange messages with other iOS users but cannot do SMS at all. Additionally, I can't sign up for messenger apps such as Signal which require a mobile number.

I learned long ago to silence the voice in my head that yells out, "Learn to use your fucking software!" when I see an email that ends with, "sent from my iPhone." instead of a proper signature.

Actually, that notice is useful. It lets you know that the person isn't using a computer for that particular email and is most likely simply typing with an onscreen keyboard, meaning the text may not be as polished and edited as usual, may not contain as many links, may be shorter, etc. Additionally, they are likely away from their computer. A less specific "sent from my mobile" would not exclude devices with keyboards, so is less information-dense.

(While it's true that you can pair a physical keyboard with most iOS devices, that's not very common.)

I guess. I only get these in my work inbox though, meaning these are company phones. So I see someone who doesn't understand or doesn't care how to configure their email properly. On top of that, I hate that it's marketing being sent to me.

Edit: I'm not sure why this is being downvoted. I've never worked anywhere that didn't have set standards for email signature formatting. Leaving the app's default signature shouldn't be an option in a professional email. And "sent via iPhone" is just as much marketing as "sent via Outlook for Android" or whatever.

 

[JakJok]

This article misses the mental health forest for the platform technology trees. Apple may not be "the bully", but they definitely are "the enabler".

A single update to iMessage could've stopped all of this bubble-ist/color-ist shit.

Provide one reason why Apple should enable Google.

Well, since you're clearly focused only on the money, I can't.

What does RCS provide me as a user other than major regressions over my current messaging choices? RCS is a huge boon to carriers. That's about it.

RCS is a garbage, jank protocol that only a carrier shill would love.

RCS would not deny you your current choices. Have you ever received messages, say, from your dentist etc? They all come via SMS (but as typical clueless Apple customer you must believe they come via iMessages). Switching to RCS would improve this type of communications.

No, I don't get SMS from my dentist nor from pretty much anyone else like that. And that's a pretty lame selling point even if I did.

Also, why do you falsely presume I don't know that Apple Messages uses SMS for non-iMessage clients? Pretty much everyone knows that. You haven't revealed some mega secret.

 

[Chemical Tribe]

iMessage lock in is such a funny concept for me
Here in Italy m even iOS users tend to not use iMessage, or at least that’s my personal experience.

unless there is a market "dominance" of iOS devices, you are likely to run into people having Android. I think it is a critical mass issue, there is no country where iOS has a dominant marketshare except the US and only in certain demographics.

Here in Argentina (one country but the same applies to the rest of south and central america) people uses whatsapp FOR EVERYTHING, even for phone calls because most carriers decided not to count whatsapp's traffic against your data caps, making it quite popular.

Whatsapp is a google property. I would question any level of meaningful encryption and worry about their core business of data mining.

Whatapps is not owned by Google, but Facebook. It uses the same encryption as Signal. Metadata is a different story though.

 

[MightyPez]

This article misses the mental health forest for the platform technology trees. Apple may not be "the bully", but they definitely are "the enabler".

A single update to iMessage could've stopped all of this bubble-ist/color-ist shit.

Provide one reason why Apple should enable Google.

Well, since you're clearly focused only on the money, I can't.

What does RCS provide me as a user other than major regressions over my current messaging choices? RCS is a huge boon to carriers. That's about it.

RCS is a garbage, jank protocol that only a carrier shill would love.

RCS would not deny you your current choices. Have you ever received messages, say, from your dentist etc? They all come via SMS (but as typical clueless Apple customer you must believe they come via iMessages). Switching to RCS would improve this type of communications.

No, I don't get SMS from my dentist. So that's a pretty lame selling point.

Also, why do you falsely presume I don't know that Apple Messages uses SMS for non-iMessage clients?

I'll also point out that if your dentist was sending you SMS for appointments, it's not from the phone of someone working at the front desk. In the US, if you're a medical provider using SMS for patient care you are contracting that out to a HIPAA compliant messaging service which may or may not include RCS. For compatibilities sake I would conjecture it wouldn't have that, but I may be wrong.

 

[LexaGrey]

Google also fails to note that all major US carriers did not support until last year and the Google bypass the carriers (which they control) was not until mid last year which was way too late in iOS development cycle to even think of including such a target for exploits. It may be an old protocol but it was only recently supported.

RCS members and those members would still get a green bubble to indicate it is not secure or may be missing features. It is not an identical feature set of protocol so the iPhone would need to track a complete second chat and sync them (rarely bug free). Maybe if Google crossed fingers promised to support RCS for a decade and not to whine when they arbitrarily add features to the spec that are not implemented immediately (see Chrome)…

 

[JakJok]

Well, you have a lousy dentist then (technology wise). Plenty of my doctors send appointment reminders and ask for confirmations via messaging.

Mine doesn't and I couldn't care less. Even if they did RCS would provide nothing of value on top of that. If this is the best you got, LOL...

What about two factor authentication? Don't you have any accounts with it?

Yes, using an authenticator app or Yubikey. You're not actually asking me if I use 2-factor auth over SMS, right? You must be joking...

Since RCS doesn't imply anything is E2E encrypted, that's just as laughably insecure. It's also tied to a SIM card, sim hijacking attacks are also a vulnerability.

You're doing a really poor job selling RCS, just FYI.

 

[JakJok]

Well, you have a lousy dentist then (technology wise). Plenty of my doctors send appointment reminders and ask for confirmations via messaging.

Mine doesn't and I couldn't care less. Even if they did RCS would provide nothing of value on top of that.

What about two factor authentication? Don't you have any accounts with it?

Yes, using an authenticator app or Yubikey. You're not actually asking me if I use 2-factor auth over SMS, right? You must be joking...

Not all services support Yubikey. 2 factor authentication over SMS is the prevalent mechanism for 2 FA (along with e-mail) but Apple cult are free to pretend that they don't know it.

Pretty much any service I use supports a hardware key or an authenticator app. Whatever garbage services send 2-factor auth over SMS and email are things I avoid. You can have fun with your pretend security though.

Why would you use any service that sends a 2-factor auth code over plaintext SMS or emails? LOL....

but Apple cult are free to pretend that they don't know it.

That's weird. If I pretend that I didn't know about such things, then why I did specifically bring it up and mock the concept?

 

[vycor]

In Japan, Line is very popular no matter what phone you have. People even use it for voice and video chat instead of the default stuff on the phone no matter if you use iPhone or Android. I loved it, because I could keep in contact with my Japanese friends no matter what device and no matter what phone number I had.

imessage is only a thing in the US. Everywhere else is either SMS or whatsapp.

Well in Australia Apples market share has grown to 45.7% according to the Australian Financial Review. I don't know what point your trying to make, let me guess that Android is solely used outside the U.S. Hate to break it to you, but you're wrong.

Annecdotally my network of fam & friends is team blue bubble. Also I tried the green bubble phones and did not like them, so I switched back.

They aren't talking about Android vs. iOS, they are saying people who use iPhones outside the US don't use iMessage. I don't live outside the US so I don't know how true that is, but I've commonly heard this.

 

[zogus]

iMessage lock in is such a funny concept for me
Here in Italy m even iOS users tend to not use iMessage, or at least that’s my personal experience.

unless there is a market "dominance" of iOS devices, you are likely to run into people having Android. I think it is a critical mass issue, there is no country where iOS has a dominant marketshare except the US and only in certain demographics.

Here in Argentina (one country but the same applies to the rest of south and central america) people uses whatsapp FOR EVERYTHING, even for phone calls because most carriers decided not to count whatsapp's traffic against your data caps, making it quite popular.

Japan might want a word with you.

FWIW, iOS share in Japan is between 45% to 65%, depending on whom you ask: the former data appears to be based on handset count, the latter based on web page hits.

Also FWIW, the dominant messenger in Japan is LINE, which is almost completely unused outside of Japan. Whatsapp is almost unheard of here. iMessage is used, but perhaps less frequently than in other countries simply because LINE is so ubiquitous; ditto for FBM.

 

[TechReader]

This article misses the mental health forest for the platform technology trees. Apple may not be "the bully", but they definitely are "the enabler".

A single update to iMessage could've stopped all of this bubble-ist/color-ist shit.

Do you really think making the green bubbles blue would make little Timmy's classmates not realize group chats don't work and he sends and receives potato-quality photos / video? They would find out he has an Android phone soon enough and bully him anyway.

I think the only thing it would do is make it take slightly longer to figure out if I have to use WhatsApp with a person.

Maybe "Little Timmy" can't afford an iPhone and just wants to talk to his friends.

EDIT: But maybe he shouldn't want to talk to them, because they are clearly assholes.

 

[phuul]

Texting should bring us together, and the solution exists. Let's fix this as one industry.

Correct, the solution exists, and it is called Signal.

Well, actually...

The solution is called Encrypted RCS. If people would actually read Lockheimer's tweet thread they would know that.

On one level, this entire problem is nonsense. I don't dispute that iMessage conveys a certain status, and those left out might feel slighted. However, instead of whining that a competitor should have to hobble their product in order to create a level playing field, raise the standards for everyone. Almost all of the additions - at least the ones people would care about - that Apple created for iMessage have RCS equivalents.

With the exception of encryption - which if it is to be a truly global solution, kind of has to be run by a third party (e.g, a carrier) and might require reworking the protocol - everything else is a solved problem.

It's taken the carriers, what, six years to implement RCS? Having a carrier implement encryption isn't a global solution, it's chaos. Also what if I want to message from, oh I don't know, a computer or tablet? Call me when I don't need a SIM/phone and the encryption has been solved. Those are the "additions" that matter. Without them RCS will never be a candidate for a "truly global solution". Until then it's just the next evolution of SMS and MMS.

 

[sailaway777]

Headline:

After ruining Android messaging, Google says iMessage is too powerful
Google failed to compete with iMessage for years. Now it wants Apple to play nice.

If a poster had put that in a comment it would get a bunch of downvotes.

I have to disagree. I think this is the one statement that almost everyone agrees with, no matter your feelings about Google/Apple. It would be nice for Apple to support RCS, but thiis mess is squarely on Google's shoulders. The only way Google's messaging mess makes sense is either witchcraft, curse or internal sabotage. It is some of the most insane product management incompetence.

 

[purecarrot]

Texting should bring us together, and the solution exists. Let's fix this as one industry.

Correct, the solution exists, and it is called Signal.

Well, actually...

The solution is called Encrypted RCS. If people would actually read Lockheimer's tweet thread they would know that.

On one level, this entire problem is nonsense. I don't dispute that iMessage conveys a certain status, and those left out might feel slighted. However, instead of whining that a competitor should have to hobble their product in order to create a level playing field, raise the standards for everyone. Almost all of the additions - at least the ones people would care about - that Apple created for iMessage have RCS equivalents.

With the exception of encryption - which if it is to be a truly global solution, kind of has to be run by a third party (e.g, a carrier) and might require reworking the protocol - everything else is a solved problem.

It's taken the carriers, what, six years to implement RCS? Having a carrier implement encryption isn't a global solution, it's chaos. Also what if I want to message from, oh I don't know, a computer or tablet? Call me when I don't need a SIM/phone and the encryption has been solved. Those are the "additions" that matter. Without them RCS will never be a candidate for a "truly global solution". Until then it's just the next evolution of SMS and MMS.

Standards are hard. Proprietary solutions? Not so much. That's why we have infinite number of messengers and just one (outdated) messaging standard. But the standards have unique role and value compared to regular apps.

 

[jdietz]

who wants to use email in a web browser for chat?!

I don't know what Japanese people do now but in the past they used email for text messaging.
I don't know why this isn't good - it seemed to work just fine.
I think they have had SMS for a long time but exorbitant carrier prices caused people to use email as a messaging solution.

 

[JakJok]

First off, you think anyone is going to use an authenticator app for the average person? Good luck with that.

Why do you presume I care what an average user does? I never once claimed that what I did was applicable to all people. So not sure the point of this strawman.

I'm sure many people do use SMS and email based 2FA. Good for them until their messages get intercepted in clear text. I'll stick to avoiding such services.

Supprting e2e over RCS is actually very simple. The communication part of what the two clients can do is hidden from view. Anyone can do it if they like.

And they can also not do it because it's not mandated by the spec. So basically in the default state it's really no better than SMS. Which means it's best to assume that most RCS implementations aren't going to implement it.

 

[cfinazzo]

Come on Ron, this is silly. Whining or not Apple needs to start enabling RCS.

RCS sucks. Messages should be delivered to a person, not a specific device.

Most people own multiple devices. The message has to go to all of them. iMessage does that, RCS doesn't.

I forgot about this part - it's really quite an oversight and I don't know where the blame lies really. I've had the setting in Messages checked which allows for conversations to use either a phone number or an email address set to "on" from Day 1. If they fix this, and figure out how to encrypt the whole thing (this is table stakes - at least for now b/c lawyers), I can't see why carriers wouldn't adopt it.

Yes, I am aware of the T-Mobile news re iCloud Private Relay. We might need to settle for a scheme like on iOS where Apple (or in this case the carriers retain a key for special situations.

 

[phuul]

This article misses the mental health forest for the platform technology trees. Apple may not be "the bully", but they definitely are "the enabler".

A single update to iMessage could've stopped all of this bubble-ist/color-ist shit.

The green and blue aren't just arbitrary colors applied to the text in iMessage, they have meaning. When the iPhone was introduced the SMS/MMS app used a green Send button and a green background for sent messages. Later, when Apple developed iMessage, they changed it so that if the recipient could receive and iMessage then the Send button was blue and the sent messages had a blue background. This told the user whether or not iMessage only options were able to be used when sending to a particular person. Today, in addition to all of that, the color also indicates whether or not the conversation you are having is encrypted. This is really important information to know and is communicated in a way that is hard to miss.

While I understand your desire to just make it all the same, there has to be some indication that you are using an unsecure method of communication. If it isn't the color of the text it will be some other indicator which will also be a way to identify a person using something other than an iPhone. It's just kicking the can down the road a bit while getting rid of an extremely effective security indicator.

 

[jhesse]

When my family (using iOS) include me (Android) in group messages, I get messages from individual numbers and can't reply to all. I might be missing something, but iMessage seems like a ridiculous move to force adopttion of a proprietary format.

You got a setting wrong someplace.
Try looking at the settings that are referenced in this random link I got from a quick search: https://www.alphr.com/android-send-group-text/

 

[cfinazzo]

Texting should bring us together, and the solution exists. Let's fix this as one industry.

Correct, the solution exists, and it is called Signal.

Well, actually...

The solution is called Encrypted RCS. If people would actually read Lockheimer's tweet thread they would know that.

On one level, this entire problem is nonsense. I don't dispute that iMessage conveys a certain status, and those left out might feel slighted. However, instead of whining that a competitor should have to hobble their product in order to create a level playing field, raise the standards for everyone. Almost all of the additions - at least the ones people would care about - that Apple created for iMessage have RCS equivalents.

With the exception of encryption - which if it is to be a truly global solution, kind of has to be run by a third party (e.g, a carrier) and might require reworking the protocol - everything else is a solved problem.

It's taken the carriers, what, six years to implement RCS? Having a carrier implement encryption isn't a global solution, it's chaos. Also what if I want to message from, oh I don't know, a computer or tablet? Call me when I don't need a SIM/phone and the encryption has been solved. Those are the "additions" that matter. Without them RCS will never be a candidate for a "truly global solution". Until then it's just the next evolution of SMS and MMS.

By "global", I meant anyone can use it. To get that scale, and not end up in the situation where differences in platform implementations break things for people, it has to come from the networks.

The lack of multidevice & eSIM support in RCS is an oversight that can be fixed. We've waited a long time for a clear picture to emerge about what needs to be done - we'll be fine if we have to wait a bit longer.

If the most important thing about RCS is that it supplants SMS/MMS and subsumes its functionality into this new thing, which in turn improves the experience for everyone, how is that not a success?

 

[JakJok]

Because it's those people that actually matter, and you seem to lack any sort of empathy for them.

Well then they should learn to use a more secure solution. Not sure why that's my responsibility. Google Authenticator is brain dead simple to use. If they can't figure it out, that's their fault.

Just so we are clear, you do know that email has been encrypted now for quite some time, right?

Yes, there are standards for encrypted email. Doesn't mean everyone uses it. Not by a longshot.

It doesn't need to be in the spec. That's my point.

So then there's no guarantee it will exist in any specific implementation. Thus it's just as insecure as SMS by default. Even if my implementation supports it but the other person's doesn't, then it effectively doesn't exist

For that matter, most people don't care about encryption for their texts. Really they don't.

Good for them? Why am I supposed to care?

Neither you nor purecarrot have provided a single reason to use RCS. All I see is strawmen, ad hominem (lulz you're a cult member!! huuurrr hurrrr!!!) and ridiculously silly things like dentist SMS texts which I don't even receive.

 

[breze]

I don't really understand why companies with mediocre reputations like Google, Facebook, and Epic decide to pick PR fights with Apple. Whether or not it is actually deserved, it is pretty clear that Apple is the only evil tech megacorp that anybody actually likes. What makes Google think this will end up any different for them, than it did for the others?

 

[beachwalker]

When my family (using iOS) include me (Android) in group messages, I get messages from individual numbers and can't reply to all. I might be missing something, but iMessage seems like a ridiculous move to force adopttion of a proprietary format.

I group chat in an iphone/android mix and this doesnt happen in google voice nor google messages. the group chat stays a group chat. odd.

 

[Thunderracker]

Headline:

After ruining Android messaging, Google says iMessage is too powerful
Google failed to compete with iMessage for years. Now it wants Apple to play nice.

If a poster had put that in a comment it would get a bunch of downvotes.

I am going to say it anyways. Google had Hangouts and then killed it. I had hangouts on my iPhone back then. even today I have Google chat for work.

My point is that Google can do one of two things about it. 1 come up with something better, or 2 buy Signal, make it the default android app and we are done.

But whining about bubble color is utterly stupid.

 

[JakJok]

:facepalm:

Yeah, I also facepalm at people who are unable to use an app that requires 2 brain cells to use. You scan a QR code and then you copy and paste a code. OMG sooooooo hard!

No, I meant email is sent encrypted, by default. You'd have a hard time finding an email server that sends mail in clear text.

All emails? Yeah, no. Not even Google claims that in their Gmail FAQ on the subject.

You are right, fuck them.

Yeah, pretty much. It's not my job to handhold someone else who is too dumb to figure out how to use a chat app. Not sure why I'm the one who is supposed to shoulder the burden of millions of other people's incompetence.

You've also still failed to provide a single selling point for RCS. Again, it's just strawmen and ad hominem.

 

[Chemical Tribe]

Headline:

After ruining Android messaging, Google says iMessage is too powerful
Google failed to compete with iMessage for years. Now it wants Apple to play nice.

If a poster had put that in a comment it would get a bunch of downvotes.

I am going to say it anyways. Google had Hangouts and then killed it. I had hangouts on my iPhone back then. even today I have Google chat for work.

My point is that Google can do one of two things about it. 1 come up with something better, or 2 buy Signal, make it the default android app and we are done.

But whining about bubble color is utterly stupid.

Number 1 won't happen, and guess what? They can't buy Signal so that won't happen either.

They could just preinstall it though anyhow. I'm sure they won't mind lol.

 

[zogus]

who wants to use email in a web browser for chat?!

I don't know what Japanese people do now but in the past they used email for text messaging.
I don't know why this isn't good - it seemed to work just fine.
I think they have had SMS for a long time but exorbitant carrier prices caused people to use email as a messaging solution.

This is only half correct: Japanese people were using proprietary messaging services offered by the telcos; they had gateways to email, complete with @ email addresses, but they came with lots of limitations compared to real email (especially in message size).

On the other hand, the messaging service had two great advantages over regular SMTP email: the messenger client was built into all featurephones sold by the telcos, and the protocol has native push notification support. It was also a great lock-in mechanism for the telcos because, while mobile number portability has been a thing for over a decade, the courtesy didn't extend to email addresses, forcing many people to stay with their carrier just to keep using their old email address.

For this last reason, I refused to patronize this telco messenger system and stuck to ISP email and SMS as much as possible. However, the general population did not share my sentiment and they were used almost universally; the usage of these services have only gone downhill in recent years due to competition from smartphone messaging platforms like LINE.