New research shows gas stove emissions contribute to 19,000 deaths annually

California is considering a law that would require warning labels on gas stoves.

See full article...

 

[Iceroadman]

My house is tiny, even by UK standards. Last year I had my gas supply cut off, and now only use electricity. Replacing my gas central heating and water heating was tricky, requiring several different ideas. Lots of cable had to be run inside walls and in the loft, but running a fat cable to the stove to run an induction hob was a step too far. It would have to cross the bathroom, and there’s no easy route, so would have had to be in visible trunking.

What I did instead was buy a cheap induction hob, rated to just 3.2kW*, only allowing two of the four burners to be run at a time, keeping it within the rating of the existing cable, which feeds a double socket powering my electric oven and the sparkers for my old gas hob. Being limited to 3kW is absolutely fine, as I never need more than two burners, and if I wanted to run a big cable I could shift a jumper and unlock all four burners at 6.4kW. I previously mentioned my house was tiny, as is the kitchen, with no appreciable worktop. That’s why it looks untidy, and I’ll never use the other burners!

*in the UK, all circuits are ~240V, it might be more complicated in the US.

In the US and Canada all electric stoves, dryers and hot water heating are on 220 so there is usually 220 coming into the home but some don't have more than 75 amp service which would need to be upgraded.

 

[DovePig]

Then a few hundred more for compatible cookware.

"A few hundred more"? Hey, an induction‑ready Ikea pot costs under $10. And you might be surprised that your old fancy pots might be already compatible. My nearly 15‑year old fancy set certainly was. Even the 60‑year old enamel pot first used by my grandma is...

 

[Rbrian]

Here’s a relevant video, comparing gas, resistive, and induction. It’s an hour long, but Alex makes complicated topics interesting, with a healthy dose of snark. Enjoy!

View: https://youtu.be/eUywI8YGy0Y?si=985qIZPBJfFhba36

 

[kgb999-again]

I have lived in 5 places with gas stoves and absolutely none of them had exterior venting hoods in the design, one was added at one location, but very poorly (and I do mean fire hazard poorly). Only one of those buildings was built prior to 1990.

Interesting. I have actually never lived in a place that doesn't have an exhaust vent above the stove ... paired with a handy range-top light. From the house I grew up in back in the 70s-80s through to my current house that was built in 1953. From VA to DC to PA to FL to NV to CA to ID. Coast to coast and border to border. Hell, I've even stayed in a weekly hotel that had them in the kitchenettes.

Some places had gas stoves. Some had electric. Every single one had an exhaust vent over the stove.

This leaves me hovering somewhere between amazed and skeptical that you have managed to live an entire lifetime in America and never once been in a single place that features a kitchen exhaust fan. I don't doubt such places exist, but pretty sure I've never actually seen a house or apartment without one in real life.

 

[Rbrian]

In the US and Canada all electric stoves, dryers and hot water heating are on 220 so there is usually 220 coming into the home but some don't have more than 75 amp service which would need to be upgraded.

As ever, it depends! I have only 80A service, and that’s plenty for my 3kW induction cooktop, 2.4kW total IR heaters, 10.8kW shower, 3.6kW battery inverter, 7.2kW EV charger, and all the other smaller loads. They’re not all used at the same time - the highest draw I’ve ever seen is 15kW, which is about 60A, and then only for a few minutes, when my car was charging while I was showering and the oven was on. The EVSE is set to throttle itself if the total draw goes over 60A. At night, there’s a continuous 10.8kW - about 40A - draw for a few hours while my battery and car are charging. During the day, it’s almost always much less, not least because 3.6kW comes from my battery.

 

[epid.nerd13]

Seems like a good idea. My parents have a nice hood above their burners but almost never use it even when cooking on multiple burners because "the house doesn't get smoky from cooking". A warning label pointing out that burning gas is really bad to breathe even if you can't see it would probably encourage people to use their ranges more safely.

Also particulate matter can be very fine (less than 2.5 microns) and therefore may be in relatively high concentration with no visual confirmation. Those particulates will bury themselves deep in your lungs or even diffuse into the bloodstream.

Our air purifiers have PM2.5 and PM10 sensors, likely fairly innacurate but I trust they get the general idea. Anytime we fire up the gas oven or stove, they (even in the next room) automatically go into overdrive maybe 90 seconds after starting. No visible smoking, but the concentration definitely spikes. Its replacement will be induction, no question about it. In the meantime we open windows when using it.

Not to mention, as you said, most gasses are invisible to the naked eye. Hell the bitterant they add to the gas is because it's invisible and odorless. You don't smell it when its burning because the combustion products don't usually have a strong odor.

Byproducts of combustion:

However, complete combustion is almost impossible to achieve, since the chemical equilibrium is not necessarily reached, or may contain unburnt products such as carbon monoxide, hydrogen and even carbon (soot or ash). Thus, the produced smoke is usually toxic and contains unburned or partially oxidized products. Any combustion at high temperatures in atmospheric air, which is 78 percent nitrogen, will also create small amounts of several nitrogen oxides, commonly referred to as NOx, since the combustion of nitrogen is thermodynamically favored at high, but not low temperatures.

 

[DovePig]

Hmm maybe some sort of asbestos mat instead?

What a great idea!

Yeah and this is a pain in the ass to figure out. I've been looking for one to run off battery in remote locations (long story) and there's no way to tell if the model will peak at 2000W even if you set it to 800 or whatever, which would impact the specs needed for the battery and inverter etc.

There are now some better IGBT drivers that promise continuous low power even down to 10 W, slowly making their way even into single‑zone portable stoves. And although that's via some clever modulation, it's likely the draw still peaks at 100 W at most.

Although I'd definitely agree it's a real shame this pretty important spec is not always advertised in a clear manner, as using a shitty cheapest one with too much duty cycling might put some people off induction stoves after that experience. Mine doesn't duty cycle til a pretty low power settings I think, but some different models cheaped out on that and were pretty bad.

 

[Felix K]

I've been in several thousand NY apartments over the past twenty years and I can count on one hand the number of apartments with external vents. Every single apartment has had a recirculating vent (if that) and gas stoves are installed in 99% of NYC apartments.

Units built in the 60s started to have central vents but even those are so gummed up that I doubt they do anything!

 

[Rbrian]

shhh like covid this is a gop killer
let them do all the stuff that they want that takes more of themselves out, by there own stupid choices

And if they only took themselves out, it’d be fine. But they insist on taking out everyone else too, by making stupid laws.

 

[ninjaneer]

Interesting. I have actually never lived in a place that doesn't have an exhaust vent above the stove ... paired with a handy range-top light. From the house I grew up in back in the 70s-80s through to my current house that was built in 1953. From VA to DC to PA to FL to NV to CA to ID. Coast to coast and border to border. Hell, I've even stayed in a weekly hotel that had them in the kitchenettes.

Some places had gas stoves. Some had electric. Every single one had an exhaust vent over the stove.

There is a big jump in quality of range hoods. Depending on what local code allows builders/remodelers/homeowners to get away with, "ductless" units still exist. They only help trap oils and push steam away from the cabinets so they don't delaminate.

Vents on the front above the hood flange give them away. Hoods are normally one-or-the-other (ducted/ductless). Every above-the-stove microwave I've seen has a reversible diverter inside that adapts to both conditions.

This is a NuTone ductless hood currently being sold at Home Depot.

 

[Bill T.]

How? You literally didn't say. You're just regurgitating thoughtless republican drivel about how "federal government bad."

By, uhm, requiring buildings to contain gas lines? I thought I made that clear. I'm neither regurgitating nor Republican, thank you very much. Regulations that support the gas industry don't help keep indoor air clean, nor do they reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Not all regulations are created equal, and far too many support narrow interest groups.

 

[DovePig]

[...] But beyond cost, to me a stove that doesn't actually get hot is stupid. I use my stove for all sorts of arbitrary heating tasks - could be an Erlenmeyer flask with a dye solution, could be a tortilla. With an induction stove, you'll just be standing there with a dumb look on your face.

OK, I give up

I usually like to keep my lab ware and chemicals well away from my kitchen (I can still recall one embarrassing – if maybe apocryphal – story about a hydroquinone soup served at dinner to a bunch of a certain professor's visitors after a mixup of the flasks in the fridge), but whatever does it for you ;-)

You might still want to buy a lab hotplate, though. Much more controllable than a gas or resistive stove for your Erlenmeyers, and pretty cheap on the 2nd hand market.

 

[killerhurtalot]

Do you know how many emitters per “burner” there are? I tried a single-burner portable induction cooktop from a reputable company (not a cheap Amazon special) and it absolutely failed to work with my cast iron skillets. My warranty claim was denied as I was told the burner only had three magnetic emitters, and it was expected to only create three hot spots in my skillet.

Ended up being useless for making quesadillas because the cooktop would make three parts of the skillet so hot it burned the tortilla, the rest would be raw, and then the unit went into a thermal overload safety shutdown for a few minutes.

My frustration ended up being mostly that it was impossible to tell if the unit was defective or not, as it was all software controlled with no way to understand why my cooking was being ruined until multiple conversations with customer service convinced me the unit was only acceptable for boiling water.

I’d like it try an induction cooktop, but I’m not going to drop $6000 on something with no promises it will work or not, and no showrooms have them actually connected to test.

Induction ranges start at around $1000 (direct replacement for normal drop in electric range/oven combos.)

About $500 more expensive than the cheapest resistance ranges or gas ranges., but only about $100-300 more expensive than similar ranges with similar features...

I looked into a heat pump, but I don’t believe they’re quiet enough. In a back to back mid terrace house, I only have one external wall, and refuse to put a noisy fan near my bedroom window. The ground outside doesn’t belong to me, though I was able to get permission for a cable for my EV charger, but the extra tanks and such required for a ground source heat pump simply wouldn’t fit. 40m2 is about 400sqft - like I said, my house is tiny.

In the UK, gas is about a quarter the price of electricity, so a heat pump with a COP of 4 would break even. It may work out cheaper if piping and radiators need replacing, if only because the new ones are cleaner. I fitted an electric shower, inline electric heater for the bathroom tap, and a Quooker hybrid tap which does both boiling and warm water, so I no longer need a kettle. My plumber disconnected the hot loop, and sometime later this year he’ll remove the old boiler, which is just taking up space in a cupboard.

I have lots of insulation though, so don’t need too much heat, and my far IR panels use less than expected, due to heating solid objects (including me) but not the air. They also allow for microzoning, so I only need to heat the room I’m using. May not be so good if I didn’t live alone.

Not sure why you're looking at ground source heat pumps for such a tiny home. 400 sq feet can be satisfied by even a portable 12000btu (around 1.2 kw) heat pump/window unit/minisplit... If you're going for a minisplit, you can mount the condensor on your outside wall... it's common here in the US at least.

If you're so sensitive to noise, a furnace would have the same issue as any heat source... I got the standard sounds from the vents from my gas furnace. You're probably looking at a in ground resistive or water based heating then...

 

[C64 raids Bungling Bay]

I looked into a heat pump, but I don’t believe they’re quiet enough. In a back to back mid terrace house, I

Doesn't apply in your case, but a lot of AC and heat pump units are noisy due to structure borne noise. It's common in some places to mount them on a couple pipes sticking out of an exterior wall. Which means the wall vibrates and is noisy. Terrible if its your family room. Moving the AC to a standalone concrete pad with risers made the whole thing near silent indoors, at least if the windows are closed. Sadly, many AC are noise polluters outside. Fan noise mostly scales with fan speed, and end users have no control over that.

edit: timely posting just a head of me, without even so much as vibration isolators between the mini-split and the mounting bracket.. The noise is much worse with a full size AC. Or a builder grade undersized AC that is struggling to keep up.

 

[pixelpusher220]

I think about it too. One big problem at least in my country it will put heavy load at power line and our power plant.

One immediate solution albeit higher cost are put battery (5-10 kwh) at house for buffer and make it better with control unit that can recieve solar cell.

With this buffer, everyone happy including power plant operator

New induction stoves are coming out that contain a battery themselves. They have 4 cooking elements and still run on 110v. (Most 4 element induction stoves need 220v for the short term high draw).

This eliminates a big part of conversion which was running a 220v line to the kitchen.

A bonus part of these new stoves is they could (again wiring changes) also run your fridge during a power outage.

 

[killerhurtalot]

I think you have a very off sense of how much energy an induction stove uses. It is less than a typical electric stove.

Switching to an electric shouldn't even require an electrical panel upgrade for the majority of homes. I have serious doubts it would somehow stress the power grid if we all moved to electric/induction over the course of many years. I mean new homes are built all the time and new power lines are run to them.

You should tell that to all the homes built with 120V under where the range/cooktop goes....
Gotta upgrade it to a 240v dual breaker and then run more expensive thicker gadgets wires for the vast majority of the drop in cheaper induction ranges. They're usually on sale for $1000ish to start.

Unless you're spending a lot more money for one with a built in battery... but at those price points, I might as well as just get the electrical work done instead of having to spend $6000+ or on a $1000 battery every once in a while...

 

[luxmatic]

I guess if you do mostly wok cooking[...]

Just FYI... I switched my wok cooking from a gas stove to an induction wok a year ago. Been completely happy with it.

 

[The Lurker Beneath]

My understanding is that CO forms when there's not enough oxygen at the flame. This can happen easily in an internal combustion engine, for example. But with a gas stove, it's an open flame, so I would think it would get all the oxygen it could use. So why is CO formed, rather than just CO2?

There are always side reactions that occur in small amounts. When there's plenty of oxygen, the overall reaction is very close to CH4 + 2O2 = CO2 + 2H2O. But a small amount of the reactants end up escaping in other forms.

The reaction will take place in a number of stages with various reactive intermediate molecules all involved and mixed together (it's not a case of three molecules coming together and being converted as a whole into the reaction products.) By the end of it, most will have been converted into the most energetically stable forms, but some reasonably stable ones like CO and NO2 will survive and escape the flame.

 

[killerhurtalot]

New induction stoves are coming out that contain a battery themselves. They have 4 cooking elements and still run on 110v. (Most 4 element induction stoves need 220v for the short term high draw).

This eliminates a big part of conversion which was running a 220v line to the kitchen.

A bonus part of these new stoves is they could (again wiring changes) also run your fridge during a power outage.

For the price of one of those (starts at $6000 from both inpulse and canary), I'd rather just get the electrical work done and buy a standard $1000 induction range not be roped into buying a expensive battery (cheapest 3 kwh battery is what, like at least $800?, before adding in the manufacturer tax cause you know none of them are selling you the battery at cost)/replacement range down the road.

 

[Eurynom0s]

Unfortunately California has already trained people to completely ignore their safety warnings.

The windows in the lobby of my office building have a Prop 65 warning etched into the glass that applies to the building itself. Like, what am I supposed to do with that information? Go job hunting based on who doesn't have a Prop 65 warning on the window? Tons of buildings do.

Plus of course the warning applies to cancer precursors regardless of whether or not they have a proven causal link to cancer, which makes them just completely useless.

 

[Rbrian]

Induction ranges start at around $1000 (direct replacement for normal drop in electric range/oven combos.)

About $500 more expensive than the cheapest resistance ranges or gas ranges., but only about $100-300 more expensive than similar ranges with similar features...


Not sure why you're looking at ground source heat pumps for such a tiny home. 400 sq feet can be satisfied by even a portable 12000btu (around 1.2 kw) heat pump/window unit/minisplit... If you're going for a minisplit, you can mount the condensor on your outside wall... it's common here in the US at least.

If you're so sensitive to noise, a furnace would have the same issue as any heat source... I got the standard sounds from the vents from my gas furnace. You're probably looking at a in ground resistive or water based heating then...

I looked at air source first, and discounted it due to the noise. Some claim to be silent, but anything with moving parts left outside all the time won’t be silent forever.

I looked at ground source, and discounted that even faster due to the size of the cylinders, and the noise. Instead I use far IR panels, which are silent, take up effectively no space, since most are ceiling mounted, with a couple doubling as pictures, and get hot water from tankless instant heaters, which only make noise in use.

 

[marmelade]

OK, serious question here. 15 years ago, the effects of exposure to gasses or atmospheric particulates was absolutely unknown, beyond small-scale studies in the laboratory. Indeed, there were studies showing remarkable resilience in highly populated areas.

Now, we not only have political action, it’s based on apparently real science that quantifies mortality rates to a remarkable precision (0.0002 % of the world population1). California isn’t alone in this: there’s also activist activity in Africa (burning coal or wood for stoves), in the UK (industrial pollution), etc, all quoting studies that show X or Y deaths per year.

What changed?

 

[Dooderoo]

These woke liberals can have my gas stove over my dead body.

Oh wait ...

 

[theghostdeejay]

I was an “electric neverer” until I was introduced to a $6000 Thermador Freedom induction cooktop. Mind you, I did not buy that.

But for not a lot of money zoneless or sorta zoneless induction cooktops exist and induction is just magical.

All this noise about “when I flip my flapjacks there is no heat” is just that, noise. No reason to cook like it is 1890.

I will point out to the open source aficionados, the Freedom runs Linux.

6000 quid for an induction hob? Seriously? In England that would be a pisstake. (Only the "posh" would even think about that sort of money for a cooker!!!!)

And why does an induction cooker need an operating system? Either open source or propriety. Just why?

 

[luxmatic]

An aside on induction circuits:

Had a 1980-era gas 32" cooktop and found that size wasn't made any longer. And, lucky for me, the builders had put in a 40amp line to that area for future-proofing. so decided to enlarge the opening and put in an induction cooktop.

Sadly, every cooktop I found was spec'd for a 50amp line. Eventually found that Bosch has a nice 40amp cooktop, which may be theonly one on the market. Bought it, and it has been a dream versus gas and my old electric stoves. Will never go back.

 

[Snark218]

"A few hundred more"? Hey, an induction‑ready Ikea pot costs under $10. And you might be surprised that your old fancy pots might be already compatible. My nearly 15‑year old fancy set certainly was. Even the 60‑year old enamel pot first used by my grandma is...

Exactly. Carbon steel and cast iron are born induction-ready. Almost all, if not all, cladded stainless (e.g. All-Clad, Made In) is. And if a pan has a thick base, it's probably induction capable.

And if you're not cooking mostly on the above as it is, frankly, you probably aren't all that serious a cook to begin with and your cookware is on the disposable side anyway.

 

[Snark218]

6000 quid for an induction hob? Seriously? In England that would be a pisstake. (Only the "posh" would even think about that sort of money for a cooker!!!!)

And why does an induction cooker need an operating system? Either open source or propriety. Just why?

Ok. So buy the $40 one that still has like zillion 4-5 star reviews on Amazon. But you do get what you pay for.

 

[leshik]

Gas imo, sucks more. The amount of waste heat is embarrassing. I hated cooking for long periods on a gas stove in a southern climate with crappy AC. And mind you I do like the smell of burning natural gas, probably incomplete combustion, I grew up with it on mornings with perfectly crispy bacon and pancakes.

Gas stoves, at best (so a high cfm hood) are indoor BBQs that give you some convenience. I guess if you do mostly wok cooking the market still makes it pricey or inconvenient for an electric option, but a lot of cooking on stovetop is affected more by the vessel than the heat source and your skill with that vessel. Iron is the great equalizer imo, but acids aren't great for it (hot acid isn't great for lots of stuff) so steel is my backup.

Sorry running long here, but essentially if you have experience with cooking beyond an occasional fry up, I am vexxed by stating induction is bad. Like, I guess compared to a regular glass electric top you're limited in materials (no standard copper or aluminum pans) but otherwise it's quicker and more responsive than anything else I've used.

Natural gas doesn’t smell. It’s odorless. The smell is added to provide artificial leak detection ie. I can smell a leak.

 

[mobby_6kl]

ROTFLMAO. Yeah. You cook your meals in that pot ... exclusively(?) ... and tell me how that goes for you. I can only assume you are either joking or that you don't actually enjoy cooking. Quality cookware isn't cheap.

This may surprise you, but what is compatible on induction stoves (and what isn't) is not a mystery. We know exactly how they work. As such, I know exactly what compatible cookware I have and what would need to be replaced. And replacement ain't happening for $10 at Ikea.

But beyond cost, to me a stove that doesn't actually get hot is stupid. I use my stove for all sorts of arbitrary heating tasks - could be an Erlenmeyer flask with a dye solution, could be a tortilla. With an induction stove, you'll just be standing there with a dumb look on your face.

You guys are all working with a false dichotomy; pretending like the only alternative to inductive stoves is gas. I haven't had a gas stove for over two decades.

I'll stick with radiant heat, thanks.

Wow, a resitive stove stan, never though I'd ran into one of those!

Stainless and cast iron works by default. What kind of cookware do you have that isn't that? Pure aluminum without a steel layer in the bottom?

If you need some heat for non-cooking purposes, you can just place any pan or any steel plate on it. Or use a $10 hot air gun.

 

[ItchyPoo]

When I make toast, it often is!

That would be breakfast bell then, unless of course you are one of those

 

[numerobis]

Then a few hundred more for compatible cookware.

If you have fancy tastes, you get to pay for your fancy tastes, sure.

 

[numerobis]

Have a 700 CFM external exhaust fan over our 5 burner pro stove.

And constant air flow throughout the house.

And we’re both terminally ill, so I actually don’t give two shits.

Are you trying to make us cheer the reaper?

 

[ZenBeam]

If they got a heat pump or electric tankless hot water heater (or even a hybrid hot water heater), it's cheaper than using gas even here in the US for the most part....

For me, in southeast Michigan (DTE), using a heat pump would double my heating cost. That's with the winter night time rates (the cheapest, and probably the most relevant), and assuming a 300% efficient heat pump.

I've been tracking this for a few years. It used to be about 2.5 times as expensive, then dropped to about 2 after a rate change a couple years ago. The rates changed again maybe half a year later, to time of day usage, but it stayed at around 2.

 

[mousecop]

Whatever warning label they might require on gas stoves in the future will be promptly ignored, just like those ubiquitous Prop 65 warnings that are everywhere in California. They stop no one, for example, from entering a building because it has a Prop 65 sign at the entry.

 

[raxadian]

I would get an electric stove but unfortunately where I live not only is electricity really expensive but also power goes down sometimes. I cannot replace all my heating for electric heating and risk freezing in winter because the power went down.

 

[theghostdeejay]

Ok. So buy the $40 one that still has like zillion 4-5 star reviews on Amazon. But you do get what you pay for.

Yes you are right. You go and buy your 40 quid thing from Amazon. And will be as good as what you have expected from your 40 quid purchase. Hey, and you will get the opportunity to give it a 4 or 5 star review!!!