New research shows gas stove emissions contribute to 19,000 deaths annually

California is considering a law that would require warning labels on gas stoves.

See full article...

 

[numerobis]

So one thing I’m confused about wrt the hullabaloo around gas stoves: everything seems to focus on natgas. Do the same concerns also apply to propane? That’s been unclear as most coverage either specifies natgas or does not identify the fuel.

The main concern is NOx, which is going to form no matter what you’re burning, as long as it’s hot.

The other products are unlikely to differ much between mostly methane and mostly propane. They’re both very short chain hydrocarbons.

 

[DovePig]

So one thing I’m confused about wrt the hullabaloo around gas stoves: everything seems to focus on natgas. Do the same concerns also apply to propane? That’s been unclear as most coverage either specifies natgas or does not identify the fuel.

Sure it does. NOx & CO form just as easily as with any other combustion. Even worse, propane has a higher temperature flame, thus produces more radicals and so potentially even more NOx than methane in natural gas (all the other things being equal, which they might not be).

And you don't even get a nice stoichiometric combustion, as when you put on a pan, you change the combustion zone geometry and are quenching part of the flame, as with any burner stove. That used to be a problem when designing enclosed camping stove pots with heat exchanger fins built into the pot.

Even the very most efficient gas burners (premixed fuel‑air, porous ceramic foam) – which aren't even used in kitchen stoves – still produce NOx & CO, if a bit less than the traditional burners.

I got a two‑zone portable induction stove in addiction to my glass‑ceramic electric resistive built‑in that was here previously, and ain't ever looking back to gas or resistive again. Unless I am doing a big meal with lots of pots, I don't even use the resistive one anymore.

Next time I redo my kitchen, it will definitely be with a big induction stove built in. They are just so good.

 

[ZhanMing057]

I was an “electric neverer” until I was introduced to a $6000 Thermador Freedom induction cooktop. Mind you, I did not buy that.

But for not a lot of money zoneless or sorta zoneless induction cooktops exist and induction is just magical.

All this noise about “when I flip my flapjacks there is no heat” is just that, noise. No reason to cook like it is 1890.

I will point out to the open source aficionados, the Freedom runs Linux.

Personally, the key draw of an open flame is the ability to blacken, especially peppers and eggplant in the context of Chinese cooking. I'm sure there are some health risks associated with open flame charring, but even if you take off the charred bits, the flavor isn't quite the same as cooking in a pan.

It's also really hard to run a traditional (i.e. round bottom) wok on an induction stove.

 

[TimeWinder]

I will point out to the open source aficionados, the Freedom runs Linux.

Great, I guess, but why should a cooktop require an OS?

 

[Cheshire Cat]

You’re sitting there in the house drinking a glass of wine, making dinner, and you’re just inhaling a toxic level of these gases. So, we need a label to make sure people are informed.

Daredevils, are we? I hope that glass of wine has a similar label telling you are drinking toxic levels of ethanol.

 

[DovePig]

Personally, the key draw of an open flame is the ability to blacken, especially peppers and eggplant in the context of Chinese cooking. I'm sure there are some health risks associated with open flame charring, but even if you take off the charred bits, the flavor isn't quite the same as cooking in a pan.

You are charring on a stove flame? Must get pretty messy. Why not just use a Crème brûlée handheld torch?

 

[ninjabiker]

Would love to see if/how HEPA filters mitigate any of these issues.

It sounds like electric is safer than gas but not faultless.

My home came with an electric stovetop and effectively no ventilation. When something burns we open windows and our HEPA filter in a far room kicks up to full blast — it does this even when we just make popcorn on the stove.

 

[balthazarr]

Would love to see if/how HEPA filters mitigate any of these issues.

It sounds like electric is safer than gas but not faultless.

My home came with an electric stovetop and effectively no ventilation. When something burns we open windows and our HEPA filter in a far room kicks up to full blast — it does this even when we just make popcorn on the stove.

HEPA are particulate filters, they won't filter out the NOx without other components to a modular filter.

 

[IncorrigibleTroll]

Great, I guess, but why should a cooktop require an OS?

So it can run Doom.

 

[ZhanMing057]

You are charring on a stove flame? Must get pretty messy. Why not just use a Crème brûlée handheld torch?

Try blackening 5 large cayenne peppers with a handheld torch v. a roaster rack.

 

[balthazarr]

Try blackening 5 large cayenne peppers with a handheld torch v. a roaster rack.

It's not quite the same, but I use a cast iron grill/flat plate - pre-heat it until it's as hot as the stove will allow (damn those safety features! LOL... turning off the power when things get "too hot") and then char on that.

 

[ZhanMing057]

It's not quite the same, but I use a cast iron grill/flat plate - pre-heat it until it's as hot as the stove will allow (damn those safety features! LOL... turning off the power when things get "too hot") and then char on that.

Somehow I feel like that's more of a health risk than the gas stove...

 

[DovePig]

If you are considering a trial induction stove before you get hooked up like me and everybody else, please keep in mind that not all 1‑2‑zone portable induction stoves are created equal. Some of the very cheapest no‑name ones cheap out on power level granularity, using on‑off cycling for some intermediate levels.

But you don't really need a super‑expensive one, just avoid the bad models. Even the cheap Ikea one is allegedly fine [maybe not, apparently it duty cycles at the lower levels], although I haven't tested it myself. It's kinda like with TVs of old – you could buy a shitty TR and be put off LCD TVs forever, or buy a good IPS display for just a few dollars more and be impressed.

 

[Snackasaurus]

We switched to induction. It’s just flat-out better than cooking with gas and I’m baffled we as a society are still having this conversation.

Edit: I’d add, lots of questions about ventilation, but the issue with gas isn’t just while cooking. Your gas stove is constantly leaking small amounts of gas, and unless you’re ventilating 24/7, you’re also breathing that it.

 

[balthazarr]

Somehow I feel like that's more of a health risk than the gas stove...

Hah, probably so, but I don't have a gas stove any more and, you know, charred peppers.

 

[ninjaneer]

Agree - love my induction cooktop... except, I wish the glass top had more grip... you often can't stir one-handed because the vessel doesn't have enough grip on the glass. Of course, if it did have more grip it wouldn't be such a breeze to clean.

Can you get adjustable grips for household stoves like boats & campers sometimes have? I assume someone makes them since they're just as convenient for accessibility reasons as they are for making eggs during nor'easters.

Pic for visual reference; sorry in advance for semi-potato quality. Note that the grips are on a rail independent of the stove surface

 

[darwinish]

I think about it too. One big problem at least in my country it will put heavy load at power line and our power plant.

One immediate solution albeit higher cost are put battery (5-10 kwh) at house for buffer and make it better with control unit that can recieve solar cell.

With this buffer, everyone happy including power plant operator

I checked the power draw of my (fairly large) 4-burner induction stove. For most levels you’re sitting around 500-1000W per burner and you’re only using that for short bursts most of the time. I strongly doubt that’s going to be a problem anywhere.

 

[Arstotzka]

I was an “electric neverer” until I was introduced to a $6000 Thermador Freedom induction cooktop. Mind you, I did not buy that.

But for not a lot of money zoneless or sorta zoneless induction cooktops exist and induction is just magical.

All this noise about “when I flip my flapjacks there is no heat” is just that, noise. No reason to cook like it is 1890.

I will point out to the open source aficionados, the Freedom runs Linux.

Do you know how many emitters per “burner” there are? I tried a single-burner portable induction cooktop from a reputable company (not a cheap Amazon special) and it absolutely failed to work with my cast iron skillets. My warranty claim was denied as I was told the burner only had three magnetic emitters, and it was expected to only create three hot spots in my skillet.

Ended up being useless for making quesadillas because the cooktop would make three parts of the skillet so hot it burned the tortilla, the rest would be raw, and then the unit went into a thermal overload safety shutdown for a few minutes.

My frustration ended up being mostly that it was impossible to tell if the unit was defective or not, as it was all software controlled with no way to understand why my cooking was being ruined until multiple conversations with customer service convinced me the unit was only acceptable for boiling water.

I’d like it try an induction cooktop, but I’m not going to drop $6000 on something with no promises it will work or not, and no showrooms have them actually connected to test.

 

[The Lurker Beneath]

My brother refuses to use the extractor fan above his gas hobs for some reason and it drives me up the wall. So many people have no idea just how harmful it can be over a long timeframe to not to use it.

I never used to use it either. Why would I want to get rid of the nice cooking smells? Of course in those days people assumed nothing harmful was coming from the gas - and houses were probably better ventilated too. (Gas might be a bigger issue in cold climates - I have always had windows open most of the time.)

 

[valkyriebiker]

That 19,000 number is in the USA alone, not globally. That's a lot higher than I expected.

I dunno... Given how many gas stoves we have in the US and the fact that most are used more or less daily I'm surprised the number is that low.

 

[entropy_wins]

Agree - love my induction cooktop... except, I wish the glass top had more grip... you often can't stir one-handed because the vessel doesn't have enough grip on the glass. Of course, if it did have more grip it wouldn't be such a breeze to clean.

I believe they make silicone mats that do that - might depend on the specific induction setup...

 

[Rick C.]

I’m pretty sure slapping a “this is known by the state of California to cause …” sticker on the stoves is going to do absolutely nothing. It’s already a joke that those stickers come on everything. Why not do what New York did?

There are those of us that appreciate the warning, and those of us who will continue to ignore such things, like the warnings on a pack of cigarettes, right?

 

[mcswell]

NOx & CO form just as easily as with any other combustion.

My understanding is that CO forms when there's not enough oxygen at the flame. This can happen easily in an internal combustion engine, for example. But with a gas stove, it's an open flame, so I would think it would get all the oxygen it could use. So why is CO formed, rather than just CO2?

 

[lasertekk]

So one thing I’m confused about wrt the hullabaloo around gas stoves: everything seems to focus on natgas. Do the same concerns also apply to propane? That’s been unclear as most coverage either specifies natgas or does not identify the fuel.

I would imagine they do. Anything with carbons in it will produce the usual issues. It’s C2H8. vs CH4. Propane isn’t thought of as much, most people look at it as that BBQ fuel or forklift fuel, forgetting rural areas not plumbed with natural gas have to resort to it. Also note the propane industry has its own advocacy group, protecting its bottom line.

 

[killerhurtalot]

Damn that's a way to double or more your yearly bills.

If they got a heat pump or electric tankless hot water heater (or even a hybrid hot water heater), it's cheaper than using gas even here in the US for the most part....

 

[kick_out_the_jams]

Gas stoves have required exterior venting for a long time. Recirculating vents are only allowed with electric cooking. (If your area doesn’t it is far behind in adopting model building codes. Also, this is why we need a national building code.)

But to the point of this article, building codes have already recognized the dangers of gas stoves.

Venting has been recommended for a long time, there is no requirement if they are still building them without ventilation.

Even if ventilation is installed it still needs to be controlled manually in most cases.

 

[mc2002tii]

Agree - love my induction cooktop... except, I wish the glass top had more grip... you often can't stir one-handed because the vessel doesn't have enough grip on the glass. Of course, if it did have more grip it wouldn't be such a breeze to clean.

You need heavier pots. Our stainless steel pot will move around, but the enameled cast iron doesn't budge. Just don't drop it on the stove.

 

[taz-nz]

I think about it too. One big problem at least in my country it will put heavy load at power line and our power plant.

One immediate solution albeit higher cost are put battery (5-10 kwh) at house for buffer and make it better with control unit that can recieve solar cell.

With this buffer, everyone happy including power plant operator

Impulse Labs makes an induction stove that has an integrated battery, it's designed for homes that aren't wired for the high electrical loads of a traditional electric stove.

 

[maxoakland]

I realize that they're talking very low levels of these chemicals, presumably lower than our CO detector would go off for, or my nose could smell. But I still wonder how important these warnings really are.

I dunno, maybe read the article that mentions several studies showing the danger? The one you’re commenting on?

 

[DovePig]

Agree - love my induction cooktop... except, I wish the glass top had more grip... you often can't stir one-handed because the vessel doesn't have enough grip on the glass. Of course, if it did have more grip it wouldn't be such a breeze to clean.

You could maybe use some silicone rubber sheet on top with the lower settings, carefuly. Like a baking mat from Ikea. Silicone is usually fine up to 220°C. Caveat emptor, obviously, as you don't really want it decomposing, catching fire or melting into slag on your nice glass ceramic top, and even on induction, the bottom of the pot can get really hot, especially if you don't have much water in it for thermal mass. And it would likely void your warranty if anything happened.

Warning – do not try at home, this video was produced by specially trained professionals, et cetera et cetera ;-)

Now, I'll have to look for some extreme high‑temperature silicone sheet producers, to see if they have something better than the Ikea baking mat, or if it's just dumb...

EDIT: @ninjaneer 's separate pot holder is probably a much better and safer idea, as long as it's non conductive. One could forget the silicone mat is on and put it on high, melting it or worse.

 

[Emon]

I think about it too. One big problem at least in my country it will put heavy load at power line and our power plant.

One immediate solution albeit higher cost are put battery (5-10 kwh) at house for buffer and make it better with control unit that can recieve solar cell.

With this buffer, everyone happy including power plant operator

I think you have a very off sense of how much energy an induction stove uses. It is less than a typical electric stove.

Switching to an electric shouldn't even require an electrical panel upgrade for the majority of homes. I have serious doubts it would somehow stress the power grid if we all moved to electric/induction over the course of many years. I mean new homes are built all the time and new power lines are run to them.

 

[Spiders from Mars]

This kind of news story is why millions of people like me are starting to ignore "science." Because there is already a political desire to take away our gas stoves, so then they go look for some studies to support it. Just like the grape industry looks for studies to say grapes are heart healthy, or the oat industry fishes up studies to say oats are good for cholesterol.

This is a subtle point to make, because I am not denying that the people doing the study are sincere, and perhaps very knowledgable. But we know the reason this is making waves today is because of politics.

And for all this, gas stoves are awesome. There is nothing wrong with them. Whether people slip in bath tubs doesn't mean we need to stop taking baths. And if some pollutant somewhere hurts someone (which I doubt is a thing) it doesn't undo the good of gas stoves for society.

This is like where a kid comes home all jazzed up about something they learned in school, but they have no life experience. So they tell their parents and the parents have heard it all their whole lives and they know back in the 60's we were supposed to have a "silent spring" and famines. In the 70's we were supposed to be destroyed by acid rain. In the 80's global warming and rising seas. (My parents shore house is still sitting pretty.) In the 90's, 00's, and 10's more of the same. It's all "the boy who cried wolf" to us.

When I share a view like this, people shout troll instead of making a logical reply. So if you go ad hominem and call me names, then it proves you have no logic. If you just say, "Hey lady, I disagree" then I credit you for it. No problem with honest disagreement. Thanks

tl;dr: high-carbon lifestyle is great!
/s

 

[ElCameron]

Building codes are not universal across the world, so in some places it may still be an issue.
And as the research mentions, recirculating hoods are still a problem for electric cooking due to the filtering capabilities not being sufficient to keep the levels of some of the measurements below WHO standards.

Building codes aren’t universal around the world only because we haven’t made them as such. I my point I was just noting the US. But yes we could easily make codes universal in most western countries if similar economic development. Hell we could save a lot of lives by making them the same everywhere. Issues we have are basis of measure, electrical grid differences, and tolerance for accessibility.

But there is nothing in model codes that cannot be applied across the planet. Maybe some decision that need improvement, but the engineering and safety analysis is universal.

 

[Cax]

I’d like it try an induction cooktop, but I’m not going to drop $6000 on something with no promises it will work or not, and no showrooms have them actually connected to test.

This sounds weird. You could buy an induction cooktop for around $500, and of course they work, they have been mainstream for 20 years.

 

[foboz1]

Agree - love my induction cooktop... except, I wish the glass top had more grip... you often can't stir one-handed because the vessel doesn't have enough grip on the glass. Of course, if it did have more grip it wouldn't be such a breeze to clean.

Place a high temperature silicone mat on top of whatever burner you're using - not only prevents slippage but makes clean-up a whole lot easier too!

 

[Rival Vector Plot]

There are those of us that appreciate the warning, and those of us who will continue to ignore such things, like the warnings on a pack of cigarettes, right?

Does it matter? My uncle died of lung cancer, from smoking. He saw the warnings, either didn’t care or didn’t believe them. Either one had the same end result...he’s dead. There will always be people taking an unhealthy stand, not wanting to take other people’s recommendations or doing things just to piss others off. It’s 2024, look around, it’s getting worse.

 

[ElCameron]

I wish that was true about external ventilation requirement for gas stoves. I have been in dozens, maybe hundreds of houses without external ventilation. Recirculating noise machines yes, exhaust no.

When rebuilding two old houses, I had to go to extreme lengths to get viable external exhaust ventilation working. Most contractors and big box stores don’t even have them.

I finally went with a commercial stove ventilation system which cost thousands of dollars.

It is true, you just are operating in grandfathered sections of the code. Or in areas that have not adopted the latest codes. Again my call for a national code. Too many areas are able to take their own politics and omit critical sections for their whims.also a reason to remove old housing and build new.

Big box stores are not where you buy building supplies.