Peek Performance: March 8th Event [Event discussion begins on p6!]

japtor

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Apple loves differentiation so I could see big iMac with the M1 Pro/Max and only the PowerMac Cube Mac Studio getting the dual (and quad?) option.

Who knows with the Mac Pro, the main remaining exclusive point of its existence at this point expansion, so if it's sticking around, this at least buys them a good chunk of extra time to get that sorted out.
 

jamoau

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Apple loves differentiation so I could see big iMac with the M1 Pro/Max and only the PowerMac Cube Mac Studio getting the dual (and quad?) option.

Who knows with the Mac Pro, the main remaining exclusive point of its existence at this point expansion, so if it's sticking around, this at least buys them a good chunk of extra time to get that sorted out.

To support all their high end audio and video users Apple will need to match the power and functionality of their current Intel Mac Pro before dropping it in favour of an AS Version. Broadly I see this as GPU power and next to zero latency that Pro Tools HDX cards offer etc.

Offering PCIe slots looks the cheapest way of doing it to me. So if the Intel Mac Pro transitions in two years, that’s what I’d expect to see.
 
To support all their high end audio and video users Apple will need to match the power and functionality of their current Intel Mac Pro before dropping it in favour of an AS Version. Broadly I see this as GPU power and next to zero latency that Pro Tools HDX cards offer etc.

Offering PCIe slots looks the cheapest way of doing it to me. So if the Intel Mac Pro transitions in two years, that’s what I’d expect to see.

Maybe the "Studio" mac will allow eGPU cases, and expansion will be "allowed" this way only. It's interesting they haven't allowed this yet with the M1 series Mac's. Could be they are holding this as a exclusive feature of a future Mac. Maybe the "Studio" Mac has a expansion module you attach to it for PCI expansion, and if you don't need it you can always upgrade it later.
 

japtor

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To support all their high end audio and video users Apple will need to match the power and functionality of their current Intel Mac Pro before dropping it in favour of an AS Version. Broadly I see this as GPU power and next to zero latency that Pro Tools HDX cards offer etc.

Offering PCIe slots looks the cheapest way of doing it to me. So if the Intel Mac Pro transitions in two years, that’s what I’d expect to see.

Maybe the "Studio" mac will allow eGPU cases, and expansion will be "allowed" this way only. It's interesting they haven't allowed this yet with the M1 series Mac's. Could be they are holding this as a exclusive feature of a future Mac. Maybe the "Studio" Mac has a expansion module you attach to it for PCI expansion, and if you don't need it you can always upgrade it later.
It's hard to see them going back down the trash can as the top of the line route again, particularly with the trajectory of the whole "pro" Mac lineup the last few years. Seems like they've just thrown their hands up and been all "screw it, give them what they want!"
 

wrylachlan

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It's hard to see them going back down the trash can as the top of the line route again, particularly with the trajectory of the whole "pro" Mac lineup the last few years. Seems like they've just thrown their hands up and been all "screw it, give them what they want!"
Agreed. The Mac Pro isn’t going anywhere. It really feels like Apple has gotten religion on the idea that Pros are different and you can’t push them towards your idealistic vision in the way that you can push consumers. An Apple that sticks SD, HDMI and MagSafe back on the MBPs is not dropping the Mac Pro.

The way I would think of it is that now that Apple is making their own chips the Mac Pro problem is really sunk costs. It’s fine to buy a high end chip from Intel in small lots because the cost of development of that chip is amortized over many customers - Apple isn’t paying all the sink costs. With a Max Duo or Max Quad, Apple is paying all the sunk costs. One strategy is reuse - so packaging multiple Maxes instead of designing a custom piece of silicon for the Mac Pro. But you’re still paying sunk costs for designing the MCM that combines multiple Maxes into a single package. And while that work is much less expensive than creating an all new die, it’s still a significant sunk cost. So the strategy of the Mac Studio (and iMac Studio???) is to increase the volume of the Max Duo (and maybe the Max Quad) so that the Mac Pro doesn’t have to shoulder the burden of amortizing the sunk costs all by itself.

Trying to sell as many Duos and Quads as possible is good for the Mac Pros future.
 

Jade

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They're a trillion dollar company. They can afford it.

The demise of the iMac Pro seems to indicate tens of thousands of sales per year is insufficient, so the unintended consequences of the xMac could be interesting. If the only practical difference between an xMac and the Mac Pro is internal expansion and that translates into sales numbers, well, not to put to fine a point on it, but doom.
 

Matey-O

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There's something else to consider regarding the Mac Studio replacing the Mac Pro, at least from Apple's controlling perspective. If a Mac Studio with fixed RAM and SSD proved so popular it destroyed sales of an upgradeable Mac Pro that was inherently more difficult to design, build, and support, well, who could blame Apple for cancelling it? Pros would have voted with their credit cards.

I think they learned their lesson from the trashcan mac...While they'll push performance up from below with a hotter Mac Mini, they're going to produce a Standards-ish compliant top end Cadillac with PCIe slots from the top-down.

That may be a toaster oven sized sexxy beast with a $400 machining budget and $400 wheels...but it's still going to have a chamber inside with PCI slots, even if they don't need to be for RAM or GPU because those are on-card. They'll show some massively edge case use where the cards hold 50GBe nics or a card with nothing but neural net cores on it or a card that'll help the blind see or...you know, maybe a datacenter on a card.
 

Mhorydyn

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They're a trillion dollar company. They can afford it.

The demise of the iMac Pro seems to indicate tens of thousands of sales per year is insufficient, so the unintended consequences of the xMac could be interesting. If the only practical difference between an xMac and the Mac Pro is internal expansion and that translates into sales numbers, well, not to put to fine a point on it, but doom.

My understanding is that the ‘demise’ of the iMac Pro was a result of shifting strategies, not necessarily sales. The iMac Pro was intended to be the Mac Pro replacement but they changed their mind on that around the same time the iMac Pro was released. There wasn’t much reason to continue with it since they ended up making a traditional pro tower.
 
It's hard to see them going back down the trash can as the top of the line route again, particularly with the trajectory of the whole "pro" Mac lineup the last few years. Seems like they've just thrown their hands up and been all "screw it, give them what they want!"

Lol yes true, except for the price.

At some point though they will have to address the Mac Pro market/user when it becomes long in the tooth. Or do they keep this one Mac on intel, I doubt that. For some reason I cannot see them doing something like the current Mac Pro with a M(x) something inside with integrated RAM and HD.
 

Jade

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They're a trillion dollar company. They can afford it.

The demise of the iMac Pro seems to indicate tens of thousands of sales per year is insufficient, so the unintended consequences of the xMac could be interesting. If the only practical difference between an xMac and the Mac Pro is internal expansion and that translates into sales numbers, well, not to put to fine a point on it, but doom.

My understanding is that the ‘demise’ of the iMac Pro was a result of shifting strategies, not necessarily sales. The iMac Pro was intended to be the Mac Pro replacement but they changed their mind on that around the same time the iMac Pro was released. There wasn’t much reason to continue with it since they ended up making a traditional pro tower.

Sales were terrible, so while it's possible a strategy shit would have occurred even if sales had been great, the simplest explanation remains that poor sales killed the iMac Pro. Similarly, if an unlikely 80 percent or more of Mac Pro sales go to the Mac Studio, fifty or sixty thousand sales per year will not save the Mac Pro. It apparently cannot be said often enough that the market for the Mac mini, iMac Proish, the xMac, and the Mac Pro combined is very small, less than a million per year, probably closer to 500,000.

I always find it strange listening to podcasts and reading blogs from Mac influencers because they routinely ignore how unpopular and niche some Macs are, and I say this as someone firmly ensconced in an Apple niche lineup, Mac mini, 13-inch iPad Pro, iPhone 13 mini, 3 OG HomePods. The difference is I know my beloved devices are one tiny frown from Tim Cook away from cancellation as his placid android eyes overlook a Numbers spreadsheet.
 

wrylachlan

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They're a trillion dollar company. They can afford it.

The demise of the iMac Pro seems to indicate tens of thousands of sales per year is insufficient, so the unintended consequences of the xMac could be interesting. If the only practical difference between an xMac and the Mac Pro is internal expansion and that translates into sales numbers, well, not to put to fine a point on it, but doom.

My understanding is that the ‘demise’ of the iMac Pro was a result of shifting strategies, not necessarily sales. The iMac Pro was intended to be the Mac Pro replacement but they changed their mind on that around the same time the iMac Pro was released. There wasn’t much reason to continue with it since they ended up making a traditional pro tower.
I’m not even sure it was strategy so much as Intel screwing them. Again. The subsequent generation of Xeon W chips to the one Apple put in the iMac Pro were something like 15% higher TDP. And the next generation of GPUs similarly ran hot. It was an entirely predictable Trash Can redux.

And with AS inbound there was no reason to tie themselves in knots to offer an engineering solution for those TDPs - just let the line lie fallow for a couple of years then pick it back up when the ARM chips are ready. My guess is that when the iMac Studio (or whatever they call it) comes out it will seem more like the iMac Pro was paused and resumed than discontinued.

And to Jades core point about volume, volume is very price dependent. If the MCM strategy allows them to hit compelling price points for a given performance level then sales could tick up.
 

richardstanz

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The iMac Pro didn't have customers because it was never designed to find customers. Its backstory was "We know you want Xeons, but we don't want to build towers, so we've come up with this abomination. That'll be five thousand dollars please."

You can't really draw any other conclusions from it other than how not to develop and market a product.
 

Jade

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MacRumors generating clicks and taps from Mark Gurman:

Evidence of M2 Apple Silicon Chip Spotted Ahead of Apple Event on Tuesday

According to Gurman:

I'm told from a developer source that Apple has been testing multiple Macs with a new chip in recent weeks that includes an eight-core CPU (four efficiency cores and four high-performance cores) and 10 GPU cores. Those are exactly the specifications of the M2 chip I detailed last year.

Apple has been testing this new chip on machines running macOS 12.3 (which should be released in the next week or two and run on the new Macs) and a future macOS 12.4, as well as macOS 13, which will be previewed in June at WWDC 2022.

I also wouldn’t rule out Apple previewing its next-generation external display. I’m told Apple actually completed work on it months ago, and the device was due to launch soon after last year’s MacBook Pro. Apple’s last in-house monitor came in 2019 alongside the Intel Mac Pro. A monitor would also explain the “peek” spelling.

I don’t believe the new iMac Pro or Mac Pro are ready to go on sale imminently, but perhaps Apple wants to preview at least one of those machines ahead of a release a little later this year.

Boom.

"Intel Thinking" regarding laptops and desktops defined by CPUs apparently does not transition to the Mac with Apple Silicon. For consumers, colors and battery life are what matters, while pros and enthusiasts understand the difference between generations based on their needs.
 

iPilot05

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The iMac Pro didn't have customers because it was never designed to find customers. Its backstory was "We know you want Xeons, but we don't want to build towers, so we've come up with this abomination. That'll be five thousand dollars please."

You can't really draw any other conclusions from it other than how not to develop and market a product.

I think that's a rather jaded view of the situation. Something snapped inside Apple that lead to their "come to Jesus" sit down with journalists in 2018 to talk about the sorry state of the pro lineup. That was when the 2019 Mac Pro was announced though it didn't come out for almost 2 years. I also think that was where the current MacBook Pro's design shift was decided on and likely when Johnny Ive decided it was time to leave the party.

Anyway, the first Pro Mac out of the gate from that strategy shift was the iMac Pro. When you look at the line-up they had available at the time the iMac was simply the only machine they could beef up with modern Xenons in the shortest amount of time. I think they had to prove they were serious even if the product itself wasn't much of a success. Yeah the Mac Pro only had to be a basic tower but keep in mind it takes time to engineer even a case let alone design the tooling and production lines to build it. I'm guessing the 2 years it took from announcement to shipment was actually a lot quicker than normal for a typical new product.

Now, whether the iMac Pro should of been built at all? They did sell quite a few of them even if it wasn't a big success. I think it's the product Mac enthusiasts love to hate but reality was it did help keep pro users engaged while the Mac Pro was being developed. And let's face it, there was no way Apple would of thrown a motherboard in some generic DIY tower from Fry's and call it a day. I'm guessing the fancy machined aluminum case wasn't even the hold up in development anyway (my guess is the MPX cards were the pinch point).
 

Jade

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Ming-Chi Kuo has thoughts!

https://twitter.com/mingchikuo/status/1 ... ptevYxrNHg

A Mac Studio and new display makes a sense. The iMac Pro in 2023 goes against conventional rumor wisdom that suggests it's coming this year, but it could be two different products, a 27-inch iMac this year, an actual iMac Pro next year. As for the Mac Pro, looks like a 2019 redux, ship one by December 31st and transition complete!
 

wrylachlan

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Ming-Chi Kuo has thoughts!

https://twitter.com/mingchikuo/status/1 ... ptevYxrNHg

A Mac Studio and new display makes a sense. The iMac Pro in 2023 goes against conventional rumor wisdom that suggests it's coming this year, but it could be two different products, a 27-inch iMac this year, an actual iMac Pro next year. As for the Mac Pro, looks like a 2019 redux, ship one by December 31st and transition complete!
I wonder if the distinction here is dual vs. quad. I think it was generally assumed that if Apple was making MCMs with 2 and 4 M1 Maxes that they’d both appear simultaneously. But they’re very different TDP and machines designed around the dual may not be suitable for the quads. If they’re really going to replace the high end of the Mac Pro they’ll also need to support DIMMs but they wouldn’t necessarily need to do that on the duals. So it could be:

iMac Studio and Mac Studio: M1 Pro -> M1 Max Duo (early 2022)
iMac Pro and Mac Pro: M1 Max Quad (December 2022 announce for 2023 shipment)
 

wrylachlan

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The biggest red flag for me with all these conflicting and overlapping rumors is that they paint a picture of a VERY crowded Mac desktop lineup. If they all come to fruition, we have no fewer than EIGHT Mac desktops:

Low end Mac mini
High end Mac mini
Mac Studio
24" iMac
27" iMac
27" iMac Pro
Refreshed Intel Mac Pro
AS Mac Pro

That is WAY too many.

A FAR simpler lineup is this:

24" iMac Mx
27" iMac (Pro?) MxPro/MxMax
Mac mini MxPro/MxMax
Mac Studio MxDuo/MxQuad

Those four machines would range from $1,199 to well over $10,000, and cover the needs of 99% of Mac desktop buyers.

So it all comes down to whether Apple still feels the need to offer a headless Mac for under $1000, and/or a Mac tower with PCI slots and user accessible RAM and drive bays.

So, same as it ever was?

EDIT: typos
 

Gary Patterson

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A FAR simpler lineup is this:

24" iMac Mx
27" iMac (Pro?) MxPro/MxMax
Mac mini MxPro/MxMax
Mac Studio MxDuo/MxQuad

Those four machines would range from $1,199 to well over $10,000, and cover the needs of 99% of Mac desktop buyers.

I reckon you're spot on with this. You can arrange the lineup into a very nice quadrant with one axis being "all-in-one over vs modular" and the other being the usual "consumer vs pro" split. I can almost see the marketing pitch.
 

wrylachlan

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My guess is that the Mac Studio is the high end Mac Mini and gets the MxPro through the MxMax Duo. And I’m pretty doubtful of a new Intel Mac Pro.

But I also think there’s another reality here. Apple is paying all the sunk costs of these chips. So it has an incentive that it didn’t have before to try to fill more niches in pursuit of more sales. And moving to a common SoC platform that is hyper-efficient simplifies the motherboard engineering making it more feasible to produce a greater diversity of models.

So while I don’t think Apple is going to completely abandon the idea of a simple and clear lineup I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see somewhat greater model diversity in the AS era than we had in the Intel era.
 

THT

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I think that's a rather jaded view of the situation. Something snapped inside Apple that lead to their "come to Jesus" sit down with journalists in 2018 to talk about the sorry state of the pro lineup. That was when the 2019 Mac Pro was announced though it didn't come out for almost 2 years. I also think that was where the current MacBook Pro's design shift was decided on and likely when Johnny Ive decided it was time to leave the party.

Anyway, the first Pro Mac out of the gate from that strategy shift was the iMac Pro. When you look at the line-up they had available at the time the iMac was simply the only machine they could beef up with modern Xenons in the shortest amount of time. I think they had to prove they were serious even if the product itself wasn't much of a success. Yeah the Mac Pro only had to be a basic tower but keep in mind it takes time to engineer even a case let alone design the tooling and production lines to build it. I'm guessing the 2 years it took from announcement to shipment was actually a lot quicker than normal for a typical new product.

Now, whether the iMac Pro should of been built at all? They did sell quite a few of them even if it wasn't a big success. I think it's the product Mac enthusiasts love to hate but reality was it did help keep pro users engaged while the Mac Pro was being developed. And let's face it, there was no way Apple would of thrown a motherboard in some generic DIY tower from Fry's and call it a day. I'm guessing the fancy machined aluminum case wasn't even the hold up in development anyway (my guess is the MPX cards were the pinch point).
The "Come to Jesus" journalist meeting was in April 2017. I think the first product to come out of the shift in Mac product marketing was the Space Grey Mac mini. You don't design and build a Xeon iMac Pro in 8 months. I think they realized that the iMac Pro, their successor to the 2013 Mac Pro, was going to fail just like the 2013 Mac Pro based on negative private customer feedback, and finally accepted where the market was going, and hence, they had a meeting with journalists to tell the market they will have a modular Mac Pro a couple of years later. The iMac Pro, already at an advanced stage of production was used as a bridge to the 2019 Mac Pro.

Something really went wrong with Mac product marketing (obvious statement). The misjudged where "pro" components where going for about 6 years straight. They designed 2 pro computers that only had about 450 to 500 W of power consumption. It's like they couldn't believe that CPUs and GPUs kept on increasing in power consumption and was expecting it to stop, but it never did. By 2017, they finally accepted that a pro desktop computer was going to go all way up to something like 1500 W. And guess what, GPUs are headed towards 500 to 700 Watts, and Intel consumer CPUs are hitting 300 W. The Intel and AMD CPU race is going to push to 400 W CPUs eventually. The 2019 Mac Pro is designed for 400 W CPUs and 500 W MPX modules and the design may not be enough for x86 components next year or two. Crazy. That 500 W For MPX modules, for 2 GPU cards today, will be barely enough for some GPU cards next year.

There better be a book. I said that so many times. A book someone writes to explain what happened between 2011 to 2017 in the Mac product marketing team. So many bad decisions. Not just with the pro desktop model, but every product line had issues of some kind, and they stopped selling monitors and routers.
 
The biggest red flag for me with all these conflicting and overlapping rumors is that they paint a picture of a VERY crowded Mac desktop lineup. If they all come to fruition, we have no fewer than EIGHT Mac desktops:

Low end Mac mini
High end Mac mini
Mac Studio
24" iMac
27" iMac
27" iMac Pro
Refreshed Intel Mac Pro
AS Mac Pro

That is WAY too many.

A FAR simpler lineup is this:

24" iMac Mx
27" iMac (Pro?) MxPro/MxMax
Mac mini MxPro/MxMax
Mac Studio MxDuo/MxQuad

Those four machines would range from $1,199 to well over $10,000, and cover the needs of 99% of Mac desktop buyers.

So it all comes down to whether Apple still feels the need to offer a headless Mac for under $1000, and/or a Mac tower with PCI slots and user accessible RAM and drive bays.

So, same as it ever was?

EDIT: typos

You sure this is correct? The mini is either M1 or intel (intel version on the way out), I didn't see a pro mini model. The iMacPro has been discontinued.

If so then they have a gap to fill Mac Mini Pro + iMac Pro could = Mac mini studio. Then maybe something else for the iMac 27" and Mac Pro.
 

dal20402

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Now, whether the iMac Pro should of been built at all? They did sell quite a few of them even if it wasn't a big success. I think it's the product Mac enthusiasts love to hate but reality was it did help keep pro users engaged while the Mac Pro was being developed. And let's face it, there was no way Apple would of thrown a motherboard in some generic DIY tower from Fry's and call it a day. I'm guessing the fancy machined aluminum case wasn't even the hold up in development anyway (my guess is the MPX cards were the pinch point).

I am an extremely satisfied iMac Pro owner, so I may be biased, but I'll just chime in to say that there are plenty of "pro" workflows for which an iMac Pro is more than sufficient. The big-dog Mac Pro is necessary where hardware expansion and multi-GPU computing are necessary. But I'd be very interested to see sales figures of the Mac Pro and iMac Pro next to each other. They are both small but circumstantial evidence including the secondhand market suggests to me that the iMac Pro was the better seller. The ephiphany may not have been "every pro needs a 1500 W tower" but "there are multiple kinds of pro workflows and we've only designed for one."

The iMac had been steadily moving upmarket even when the old cheesegraters were still on sale, and continued to do so throughout the trashcan era. Eventually that bumped up against the thermal limitations of the existing 27" case, and the iMac Pro was a neat if expensive solution to the problem. Some people and some employers (for whom an AIO is often very easy to deploy) really did want a high-end AIO. That's why I think we'll have a Big iMac even if everything about the Mac Studio rumor is true.

Something really went wrong with Mac product marketing (obvious statement). The misjudged where "pro" components where going for about 6 years straight. They designed 2 pro computers that only had about 450 to 500 W of power consumption. It's like they couldn't believe that CPUs and GPUs kept on increasing in power consumption and was expecting it to stop, but it never did. By 2017, they finally accepted that a pro desktop computer was going to go all way up to something like 1500 W. And guess what, GPUs are headed towards 500 to 700 Watts, and Intel consumer CPUs are hitting 300 W. The Intel and AMD CPU race is going to push to 400 W CPUs eventually. The 2019 Mac Pro is designed for 400 W CPUs and 500 W MPX modules and the design may not be enough for x86 components next year or two. Crazy. That 500 W For MPX modules, for 2 GPU cards today, will be barely enough for some GPU cards next year.

I think you're conflating a few things here.

First, routers and displays are a red herring. Apple stopped selling routers because it didn't want to spend its focus engineering a mesh product and mesh was taking over. (And its value add was shrinking--other makers' products became steadily more stable and reliable.) Apple stopped selling displays because it had no way to add the value needed to maintain its margins, something that is likely changing as the consumer monitor market has stagnated for five years and Apple has developed more ability to source custom components.

Second, within the Mac lineup, the notebook and desktop pictures were different. Ive got the notebooks mostly right, as much wailing and gnashing of teeth as everyone will subject me to for that statement. He just overshot a bit on thinness and didn't manage to execute on the butterfly keyboard. The 2021 MBP doesn't look like a 2008 or 2011 MBP redux. It looks like a 2016 MBP that had a slight course correction and was hit by an ugly stick. The market, including the pro market, really did move away from the desktop replacement and toward thin-and-light with battery life prioritized over all-out performance, even at the pro end. He got the trend right but the details wrong.

The desktop is where Ive really screwed up, and I have some sympathy there. The fact that in this era of unprecedented performance per watt the high-end desktop space is moving quickly toward workstations that require a 20A outlet is batshit insane. I wouldn't have designed for it either, in either 2012 or 2016. It's purely an artifact of both Intel and NVIDIA being pushed into corners as a result of their own choices, and it's resulting in some wacky products in the workstation market.

Apple capitulated to it with the 2019 Mac Pro. But Apple also made clear through both pricing and component choices that it thought such a product would be appealing only to a small audience, and that the bulk of professionals buying Macs would find other products more to their liking. The 2021 MBP, as much as I make fun of its looks, is an astonishingly capable pro computer that is cheaper, much easier to deploy, and in many ways more refined than the Mac Pro. We are in an iMac interregnum but the same could have been said of both the 2017 iMac Pro and the 2020 27" iMac when they came out. And the same will be true of the Mac Studio. The high end of the desktop market is a place where Apple has judged it necessary to play, but Apple is also making clear that it thinks the buyers who don't really really need to be there should be elsewhere.
 

wrylachlan

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The ephiphany may not have been "every pro needs a 1500 W tower" but "there are multiple kinds of pro workflows and we've only designed for one."
I think this is exactly right. And the corollary is “the more pro workflows we design for, the better our professional reputation - having major workflows that we don’t support is a turn off for pros.” In other words adding HDMI and SD burnished their pro bona fides even among pros that would never use them. Having a PCIe capable Mac gives them professional luster even among pros who don’t need or want PCIe. And having a high end (but not ultra high end) headless desktop helps solidify their professional story.
 

Arasirsul

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9to5Mac, who published the Mac Studio rumor, also published that Apple is working on a 7K display dubbed as "Apple Studio Display". That's 7K, ~7000 horizontal pixels. The two will go together. The display is said to have an A13 SoC in it. To do what, who knows? Handle decoding of a compressed video stream perhaps so that there is enough bandwidth leftover to have USBC ports at 10 Gbits/s in the back perhaps.

That A13-in-a-monitor rumor keeps coming up, and I keep thinking "that plus Universal Control and Airplay equals wireless monitor."

Except I'm not convinced it really can yet. Nothing wireless has the bandwidth, at least for uncompressed video... will "pros" settle for compressed? Especially after they've been getting 120hz on their phones and tablets?
 

wrylachlan

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^^ This is an excellent point that Apple's modular SoC designs allow for a greater range of SKUs, but I still say that my four are MORE than enough. It's still more desktop models that laptop models, (once the legacy 13" Touch Bar goes away) which is crazy in the Year of our Lord 2022.
I don’t think there’s an arbitrary “right number of SKUs”. The question really is “are these workflows meaningfully different? I’d argue that “needs PCIe” and “doesn’t need PCIe” is a meaningful enough difference to guarantee that there will continue to be a Mac Pro alongside this putative Mac Studio. And an entry level SFF headless desktop is very different from a workstation l, ensuring that the Mac Mini and Mac Studio continue to justify their separate existences. On the iMac front there’s certainly room for a consumer and pro version. I’m skeptical that there’s enough design space there to make a meaningful distinction between a Studio and a Pro. So by my count that would be 5 models:
Mac Mini: Mx
Mac Studio: MX -> MX Max Quad (no expansion)
Mac Pro: MX Quad (PCIe)
IMac 24” : MX
IMac Studio/Pro: Mx Pro -> MX Quad(I think this will be one model even if the high end doesn’t arrive immediately.

Yes 5 models is a lot but again it’s not as much about numbers as it is meaningfully differentiable niches. The Studio is an important model for creatives who need power but don’t need the screen because they’re using a Wacom and pen as their primary input.
 

dal20402

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That A13-in-a-monitor rumor keeps coming up, and I keep thinking "that plus Universal Control and Airplay equals wireless monitor."

Except I'm not convinced it really can yet. Nothing wireless has the bandwidth, at least for uncompressed video... will "pros" settle for compressed? Especially after they've been getting 120hz on their phones and tablets?

Lossless compression wouldn't hurt the picture quality but wireless video would be entirely orthogonal to the monitor's ability to serve as a dock with single-cable connection, which is one of the main attractions of modern monitors.
 

Galvanic

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The biggest red flag for me with all these conflicting and overlapping rumors is that they paint a picture of a VERY crowded Mac desktop lineup. If they all come to fruition, we have no fewer than EIGHT Mac desktops:

Low end Mac mini
High end Mac mini
Mac Studio
24" iMac
27" iMac
27" iMac Pro
Refreshed Intel Mac Pro
AS Mac Pro

You're differentiating among types. The real lineup is:

Mac mini (Mac Studio being the high end Mac mini)
iMac
Mac Pro.

Or, if the Mac Studio is a different beast, then it's

Mac mini
Mac Studio
iMac
Mac Pro

Neither of those is crazy.
 

THT

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But I also think there’s another reality here. Apple is paying all the sunk costs of these chips. So it has an incentive that it didn’t have before to try to fill more niches in pursuit of more sales. And moving to a common SoC platform that is hyper-efficient simplifies the motherboard engineering making it more feasible to produce a greater diversity of models.

So while I don’t think Apple is going to completely abandon the idea of a simple and clear lineup I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see somewhat greater model diversity in the AS era than we had in the Intel era.
Yup. I really hope so. The PC market is not like the smartphone market, where devices are constrained by our hands, pockets and purses and you can have a small lineup of smartphones. There are a lot more types of PC products for many different types of customers.

The quadrant of Mac products was done at a time when Apple was barely surviving, and it needed to focus its resources. They are now in a position to try to get more marketshare. Apple doesn't have self-sufficient market share in PCs like they have in smartphones. I think they really need to try to double it to about 15% to 20% marketshare, where the ecosystem can roll on its own inertia of software and repeat buyers.

They need to get a self sufficient gaming ecosystem on macOS. I really shouldn't be telling people that if they want to game, they should get a PC, especially with Apple being such a consumer brand. So, they need to be a game developer and game publisher. They need to have base hardware with good enough GPU at around $500 to $600. Eg, an M1 Pro for $600 Mac mini would just about do it, but having games is the single most important thing.

They need to penetrate the STEM fields more and more. Again, software, software, software. They shouldn't be hoping a developer will port their software. Then, they need big, competitive diverse hardware for the different needs people have. Offering a lineup of low, mid and high end headless desktops, simultaneously and overlapped in price, with a lineup of low, mid, and high end AIO machines is perfectly fine, especially since they will be using the same basic chips, just in different packaging. Let people buy what they want, at least within the confines of an expanded lineup. Use those just-in-time manufacturing skills they've honed for 2 decades now. A rack unit too. It's basically a way to get software to optimized for the platform. Spread the hardware far and wide.

There are many many "utility" PCs. These are the PCs with large displays that you see in front desks of businesses, in hospital rooms/carts, on secretary desks, etc. I sometimes think that these units are like a half of the PC market. Replacement cycles are ridiculous long, but they are part of the PC market. All of them will eventually just run a browser, no custom Windows software anymore. An opportunity. So, an ultra low end iMac could compete here. Like an 1920x1080 iMac 24 with an A14 and 4 GB of RAM for $600, sold only to businesses only. This is pretty far afield from Apple's wheelhouse, so no way, but I see more of these PCs than anything else.
 

wrylachlan

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There are many many "utility" PCs. These are the PCs with large displays that you see in front desks of businesses, in hospital rooms/carts, on secretary desks, etc. I sometimes think that these units are like a half of the PC market. Replacement cycles are ridiculous long, but they are part of the PC market. All of them will eventually just run a browser, no custom Windows software anymore. An opportunity. So, an ultra low end iMac could compete here. Like an 1920x1080 iMac 24 with an A14 and 4 GB of RAM for $600, sold only to businesses only. This is pretty far afield from Apple's wheelhouse, so no way, but I see more of these PCs than anything else.
They may be a part of the PC market but they’re not a meaningful part of the ecosystem - users of those devices aren’t buying peripherals for them, they’re not buying software for them, they’re not upgrading them and they’re not using them as a hub connected to their phones or tablets. And the OEMs of those models aren’t seeing the kinds of profit from them that fund R&D and move the platform as a whole forward. If you measured the Macs percentage of the PCs that meaningfully participate in their ecosystems you’d find the Mac much much higher marketshare.

And I disagree that Mac marketshare isn’t sustainable. If it was going to collapse it would have done so years ago when marketshare was lower AND codebases were harder to maintain. Current marketshare at current ASPs with the realities of modern app development - the Mac is fine where it is. That said, they are growing marketshare with AS. And I do believe they’re taking steps to expand the Mac lineup in an attempt to grow it even faster.
 

Chris FOM

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My guess is that the Mac Studio is the high end Mac Mini and gets the MxPro through the MxMax Duo. And I’m pretty doubtful of a new Intel Mac Pro.

But I also think there’s another reality here. Apple is paying all the sunk costs of these chips. So it has an incentive that it didn’t have before to try to fill more niches in pursuit of more sales. And moving to a common SoC platform that is hyper-efficient simplifies the motherboard engineering making it more feasible to produce a greater diversity of models.

So while I don’t think Apple is going to completely abandon the idea of a simple and clear lineup I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see somewhat greater model diversity in the AS era than we had in the Intel era.

Fixed costs, not sunk. Not trying to be pedantic, but they're totally different. Sunk costs refers to money already spent, and that money spent should be considered gone and not used to justify continuing to try and keep a product going, as in the sunk costs fallacy or throwing good money after bad. Fixed costs are costs that are paid once and are the same regardless of how many units are produced, as opposed to marginal costs when you're paying by the unit. You pay once to design an SoC, and the cost of designing it are the same whether you sell one unit or 100 million. So the more units you can sell the more you can spread that development cost. It's a lot easier to spend $100 million to design an SoC that'll go into 100 million sales than to spend that same amount of money on an SoC that'll get sold once. And Apple's definitely trying to amortize those fixed costs as much as they can. The A14, M1, M1 Pro, and M1 Max all use the same performance cores, efficiency cores, GPU cores, NPU, and likely quite a bit of the uncore, "just" differing in how many of each. The M1 Pro is an M1 Max with the bottom half chopped off. The efficiency cores get reused for the S-series SiP in the Apple Watch. Now granted going from the various cores as building blocks to the different SoCs we're seeing with such a massive range in die size, performance, power, etc. is still a massive amount of design and cost, but Apple's clearly reusing everything they can to keep those costs under control.

So yeah, it's entirely possible that paying once for a new chassis design with reasonable marginal production costs to increase sales is an overall winning move for Apple. Depends on how many extra sales they can pick up, what the costs of that design work actually are, and how much spinning up a new production line at Foxconn (another fixed cost that doesn't depend on how many units are produced) costs. At some point you've sliced the market too thin and the various products are just cannibalizing sales from each other instead of winning them from the competition, and there's always the worry about consumer confusion and the tyranny of choice from too many options, but I've got no idea where that line is. I think the basic idea of five desktops (three headless and two AIOs) lead to pretty natural and obvious user needs. You don't even need to get into details, even a cursory glance at the lineup makes it obvious who each machine is for and which one fits your needs (with lots of room to upsell the next tier for customers with extra money and a desire to treat themselves, even if they don't need it; my computing needs these days are incredibly simple but after getting used to a 27" iMac I'd have trouble going back to a smaller display even if the 24" iMac with an M1 would be more than enough for my needs). The laptops are the same way, except I do think there may be a sizable market for a 15" MBA that wants a bigger screen but has no need for MBP power or desire to pay MBP prices.
 

THT

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First, routers and displays are a red herring. Apple stopped selling routers because it didn't want to spend its focus engineering a mesh product and mesh was taking over. (And its value add was shrinking--other makers' products became steadily more stable and reliable.) Apple stopped selling displays because it had no way to add the value needed to maintain its margins, something that is likely changing as the consumer monitor market has stagnated for five years and Apple has developed more ability to source custom components.
I think they stopped making routers because, more and more, Internet providers were locking customers into their combo modem+router boxes. Homes with single function cable modems were disappearing. That shrank the market for their wireless router and wireless router+Time Machine combo box, and they just dropped it. I think they could have held on and veered into a NAS+router+backup solution: just plug the Ethernet cable into the cable/fiber modem, and let the Apple magic happen with devices automatically connecting, automatically backed up, etc. I'm not sure you can turn off the wireless router function in my fiber modem without deeper research. That it was not easily done convinces me that Internet providers have the wireless router market locked up.

I don't think the consumer mesh networking unit sales are all that big. It by definition will be smaller than the shrinking home WiFi router market. Big for office buildings, but that's not Apple's wheelhouse either.

For displays, see below.


Second, within the Mac lineup, the notebook and desktop pictures were different. Ive got the notebooks mostly right, as much wailing and gnashing of teeth as everyone will subject me to for that statement. He just overshot a bit on thinness and didn't manage to execute on the butterfly keyboard. The 2021 MBP doesn't look like a 2008 or 2011 MBP redux. It looks like a 2016 MBP that had a slight course correction and was hit by an ugly stick. The market, including the pro market, really did move away from the desktop replacement and toward thin-and-light with battery life prioritized over all-out performance, even at the pro end. He got the trend right but the details wrong.
Yes, I agree with you here. Apple got where the PC market was going and the laptop takeover of the PC market was going to continue apace. A lot of this is hindsight is 20/20. Predicting where a market goes is really hard, and you won't get the details right, but Apple has more resources and data than us arm-chair quarterbacks. They should be more right than we think.

Not selling an Apple branded monitor, especially a TB3 monitor, was a mistake. People were buying laptops to replace their desktops, but they were still using those laptops on their desks, in the office and at home. I think this increased the market for monitors as a laptop meant you could have a monitor at your desk and at your home. The pandemic only increased the need for a large monitor at home.

The 4th gen MBP models with TB3 were finally at a point where "a single cable plugged in and everything lights up, including charging of the laptop" became achievable. This should have meant they should have had more branded monitors for sale, not none, as there was more opportunity to use external displays. There is even a market for mobile monitors. They really should have 24", 27", 32" and 35" 21:9 monitors as part of their lineup.


The desktop is where Ive really screwed up, and I have some sympathy there. The fact that in this era of unprecedented performance per watt the high-end desktop space is moving quickly toward workstations that require a 20A outlet is batshit insane. I wouldn't have designed for it either, in either 2012 or 2016. It's purely an artifact of both Intel and NVIDIA being pushed into corners as a result of their own choices, and it's resulting in some wacky products in the workstation market.

Apple capitulated to it with the 2019 Mac Pro. But Apple also made clear through both pricing and component choices that it thought such a product would be appealing only to a small audience, and that the bulk of professionals buying Macs would find other products more to their liking. The 2021 MBP, as much as I make fun of its looks, is an astonishingly capable pro computer that is cheaper, much easier to deploy, and in many ways more refined than the Mac Pro. We are in an iMac interregnum but the same could have been said of both the 2017 iMac Pro and the 2020 27" iMac when they came out. And the same will be true of the Mac Studio. The high end of the desktop market is a place where Apple has judged it necessary to play, but Apple is also making clear that it thinks the buyers who don't really really need to be there should be elsewhere.
Yeah, an Alder Lake CPU peaking at 300 W or an Nvidia RTX 3090 whatever needing 450 W is pretty crazy, and both wattage numbers are going up for future chips. This really is not an excuse for Apple not playing in the desktop market.

They finally realized that the hardware is in service of an ecosystem or a platform. Not serving enough niches with the platform will erode sales as software becomes less and less available. They need to play in at least one high end niche so that they can sell MBP and large iMac models. Preferably they should play in most of the niches. It doesn't stop. They really do need to continue play the game of stuffing as much performance as possible into a 1500 W machine.

Intel, AMD and Nvidia, others, aren't going to stop. They will go right to the line where it becomes impossible to cool and limited by 15A to 20A circuits in homes and offices. The crypto nuts will go right along and use 30A to 40A circuits at home as long as proof-of-work rigs make them money. It's only a small subset of folks who will value the Watts saved. If Apple's machine uses 500 W and an x86 machine matches its performance at 1000 W, not many will swayed at the 2x difference in Watt. If a 1000 W Apple Silicon machine outperforms a 1000 W x86 machine by 2x, people will notice, and probably be swayed.