Xbox 360 backwards compatibility coming to Xbox One

Compatible disc-based and downloadable games won't need to be re-purchased.

Read the whole story

 

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dfjdejulio[/url]":1b5s8pmh]Well now. If the backwards compatibility list includes "Bioshock", "Mass Effect", and "Rock Band: The Beatles", Microsoft just sold me an XB1.

(If it includes at least one of those plus a few others I really care about, that might do the trick too.)

Mass Effect was shown during the announcement, so that's almost definitely coming.

Another article states that MS plans to have 100 titles "by this holiday," so don't expect 100 titles at once. Also, previous digital download purchases will just start showing up in your library as they become compatible, so no hunting them down necessary, although you will still have to download them, they don't download automatically.

 

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Danrarbc[/url]":35t78cmh] Sounds like this is also using assets off the disc if you have a disc, just saving them to the hard drive.

I don't think it's using the disc for anything but confirming you own the game; Note that you only need the disc if you didn't it digitally, and it says it downloads the game fully.

Likely the recompiling of the game makes it hard to actually utilize the original game disc assets, but the game disc still have copy protection mechanisms in it to confirm you own a legit game disc.

 

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maxwell[/url]":tauy9719]What is the point of pre-announcing something like this?

I've seen enough grand proclamations from Microsoft to wait out this one. Show us the list. Show us a working 360 title on an Xone...or be quiet about it.

They showed Mass Effect running on the Xbox One during the announcement. The list is due out later today. It was part of Microsoft's E3 press conference, so it was only one small part of the overall press conference, which is why more details are forthcoming once the press conference is over.

 

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OK, so here's video of the announcement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=179&v=3PMjqmggn_o

Some interesting notes:
They say for disc purchases, "just insert the disc, download the game, and start playing." This may mean it "downloads" from the disc, since I've heard MS refer to copying from the disc as "downloading" before.

It's due out this holiday for all users; until then only preview members will have access to it. So it still has a beta period to go through.

They mention that developers/publishers only have to "approve" their games for this service, "no extra work on their part," suggesting that it isn't a recompile at all, but likely a mix of emulation and software shim.

Multiplayer will work: you'll be able to play 360 games with people on 360s. In addition to screenshots, game DVR and live broadcasting will work too. I could see a lot of people streaming classic 360 games via their Xbox Ones.

 

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houligan[/url]":1usi2zf8]
XBox 360 would play certain original XBox games straight from the disk, no additional downloads needed.

Only the Xbox 360 consoles that come with a harddrive: the emulator and necessary configuration files are pre-loaded onto the harddrive. Later added emulation-compatible titles required a download.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_X ... s_achieved

 

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A list and FAQ have been posted:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/back ... atibility/

Available games

A Kingdom for Keflings
A World of Keflings
Alien Hominid
Banjo Kazooie: N n B
Banjo-Kazooie
Banjo-Tooie
BattleBlock Theater
Defense Grid
Geometry Wars Evolved
Hexic HD
Jetpac Refuelled
Kameo
Mass Effect
Perfect Dark
Perfect Dark Zero
Small Arms
Super Meat Boy
Toy Soldiers
Toy Soldiers: Cold War
Viva Piñata
Viva Piñata: TIP

FAQ:

What is Xbox One Backward Compatibility and how does it work?
Xbox One Backward Compatibility is an Xbox 360 emulator that runs on Xbox One and is used to play Xbox 360 games.

If it’s actually emulation, why are you calling it backward compatibility?
We call it backward compatibility because gamers can play select Xbox 360 games on the Xbox One. However, referring to this functionality as an emulator is more accurate from a technology perspective since the Xbox One is not technically reading and playing the 360 game off of a disc.

When will it be available?
The Xbox One Backward Compatibility Beta is available starting June 15 for Xbox preview members. The program will launch broadly for fall 2015.

Previously, you said back compat wasn’t possible on Xbox One. How is it possible now?
We didn’t know if we could do it, but we were inspired by our fans, and thanks to the dedication and determination of a group of brilliant engineers in our platform team who developed Xbox One Backward Compatibility, we made the impossible, possible.

How many titles will be available at launch? Which titles?
During the preview, more than 20 titles with more each month. At launch, we plan to have over 100 Xbox 360 titles available. We look forward to sharing more games and details closer to launch.

 

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PRMan[/url]":1r3wl3kr]

maxwell[/url]":1r3wl3kr]What is the point of pre-announcing something like this?

I've seen enough grand proclamations from Microsoft to wait out this one. Show us the list. Show us a working 360 title on an Xone...or be quiet about it.

FUD. Microsoft's specialty.

Already, several people in this thread have stated that instead of a PS4 they are now looking at XB1.

I don't think "Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt" apply to this situation even if MS hadn't already provided an initial list of compatible games.

 

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PRMan[/url]":1espyjg2]"However, referring to this functionality as an emulator is more accurate from a technology perspective since the Xbox One is not technically reading and playing the 360 game off of a disc."

This sentence makes absolutely no sense. If it WERE an emulator, they COULD read and play the game directly from the disc.

Yeah, that looks like copy that got over simplified to the point of being nonsensical. What I think they meant is likely is that it can't just play straight on the hardware, but there's an emulator shim between the game and the XBox One, and the game is being played from within this emulator.

They likely didn't want to call it an emulator, since 1) many people don't know that that means, and 2) emulators typically strive for 100% compatibility, which will likely never happen with all 360 games on the Xbox One.

 

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dfjdejulio[/url]":3czkbbi1]

I'd be pretty surprised if the other games in that piece of artwork don't end up on the list. They seem to include "Borderlands", "Halo 3", "Halo Wars", and… "Shadowrun"?

It's Halo Reach, not Halo 3. I doubt they'll support Halo 3, as they want people to buy the Master Chief Collection instead.

The Shadowrun title shown is this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun_(2007_video_game)

 

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ZenMasta[/url]":bec0uz0p]Where is compatibility with ORIGINAL XBOX, seeing how it is already x86 hardware, this should be a no brainer for either full emulation or load and play no?

Emulating decades-old games probably isn't high on their list. It's technically possible, but probably not worth the effort from their point of view.

Maybe they can achieve it by running the 360's emulator of Xbox games inside the Xbox One's emulator of the 360.

 

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dfjdejulio[/url]":15yhz41q]

marsilies[/url]":15yhz41q]
The Shadowrun title shown is this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun_(2007_video_game)

Yeah. My understanding is that this version of Shadowrun was both critically and commercially a failure, which is why I was surprised to see it in the backdrop there.

It's a Microsoft Studios game. I think all the games listed so far were published on 360 by Microsoft Studios, so they don't have to ask anyone to authorize the XBox One compatibility for them.

 

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ZenMasta[/url]":39lbxmtw]

marsilies[/url]":39lbxmtw]

ZenMasta[/url]":39lbxmtw]Where is compatibility with ORIGINAL XBOX, seeing how it is already x86 hardware, this should be a no brainer for either full emulation or load and play no?

Emulating decades-old games probably isn't high on their list. It's technically possible, but probably not worth the effort from their point of view.

Maybe they can achieve it by running the 360's emulator of Xbox games inside the Xbox One's emulator of the 360.

Even more unlikely, the emulation on 360 had a special partition on their hard drives, which was dropped once they switched to the xbox slims

Yeah, but you probably have to download the game-specific emulator VM to run the 360 games on the Xbox One, so the Xbox game download would be a 360 VM holding the Xbox emulator and Xbox game.

Also Xbox Slims with harddrives still come with the emulator partition. It's only the Xbox Slim with the 4GB internal flash that doesn't come with it.

 

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rick*d[/url]":2z1nei9c]And I notice there are no Halo titles on that list. Still have to buy new versions of those.

Box art for Halo Reach and Halo Wars are shown on the backward's compatibility site, so they're likely coming:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/back ... patibility

 

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Shuffy[/url]":79azxqob]I'm only interested in seeing what kind of emulation this is. Pure software? Some kind of JIT recompiling magic?

The video from a Major Nelson tweet suggests they're emulating an entire 360 OS inside it:
https://twitter.com/majornelson/status/ ... 2173194240

 

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Flit[/url]":3kotsabv]The well done emulation articles Ars has put out previously on emulation makes me skeptical. Is there any way they're really fully emulating the 360 on the XBO? And if so, how?

Well, if anyone can do it, MS can, since they have full access to the hardware and OS for both systems. A lot of the difficulty of emulation of game consoles comes from having to reverse engineer how games run on it, which MS doesn't have to do.

Also, I suspect they're able to sidestep the graphics issue a bit by translating Direct X calls from the 360 to Direct X for the Xbox One. So they don't have to emulate the 360 graphics card, just translate the API calls between the systems.

That just leaves emulating the PowerPC CPU and it's three cores. With at least 6 of the AMD APU cores available to games, that means that they can use two AMD cores for emulating each of the 360's PowerPC cores.

 

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dfjdejulio[/url]":37zgeklu]I wonder if they'll support the XBox 360 "Indie" games. They're supposedly built on top of the .Net CLR, so there shouldn't be any need for processor emulation there.

The Xbox Live Indie Games were built using XNA, which is based on .NET, but were compiled into executables to run on the 360. MS discontinued the XNA framework, so there's no way to recompile them for the Xbox One. So they'd need emulation as well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_XNA

Still, they should be able to be emulated just as easily as XBLA games. It just depends on whether MS will support them, and how.

 

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Operative Me[/url]":1q5fs8dn]

ujnhunter[/url]":1q5fs8dn]"Developer Approval" ruins this... just make all the games available or GTFO.

Yes, because Microsoft can just choose to put the intellectual property of other companies, which intellectual property they do not control or have complete access to the original binaries of, onto a new video game system, with or without the permission of the holders of that intellectual property.

Microsoft doesn't have the right to do that, and they likely can't get it working without support from the third parties. They can't "just make all the game available", either from a technical OR legal standpoint.

In the E3 video, they mention that the backwards compatibility requires "no additional work" by the publisher aside from approval, so it seems like MS can do it from a technical standpoint, so it likely boils down to the legal standpoint; MS likely needs permission from the publishers to allow the download of a Xbox One emulated copy of the game.

 

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RStormy[/url]":3lh89lqv]

Operative Me[/url]":3lh89lqv]Microsoft doesn't have the right to do that, and they likely can't get it working without support from the third parties. They can't "just make all the game available", either from a technical OR legal standpoint.

I wonder about that legal standpoint. It didn't stop Sony from having backward compatible PS3s at first.
Neither through the hardware compatibility or later through the software emulation.

The PS3 runs the entire game, whether PS2 or PS3, from the disc. They weren't redistributing the software, just making a compatible layer on the PS3.

For the Xbox One method, it sounds like users end up downloading an emulated copy of the game, whether it was originally purchased digitally or on disc. So MS needs permission to distribute that emulated copy.

 

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Lwio[/url]":twfcrs2t]Don't like to pour cold water on this but it would be a good idea to see how well this works.

They already showed a few seconds of Mass Effect gameplay during the announcement; a lot of Xbox Preview members are going to be testing the available titles pretty soon.

 

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dfjdejulio[/url]":70ttnkx0]

Lwio[/url]":70ttnkx0]Don't like to pour cold water on this but it would be a good idea to see how well this works.

Got any friends in the preview program?

If so, ask them tomorrow.

Or just find the inevitable twitch feeds.

 

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RStormy[/url]":37fboxe9]

TomXP411[/url]":37fboxe9]
Oh. Invite Only. I have like 3 XBox friends, and none of them are likely to be Preview Program members.

Yeah, same boat. Now I want in that preview program really badly.

The comments thread for this article has basically turned into a "begging for preview program invite" thread:
http://meincmagazine.com/gaming/2015/06/x ... o-options/

I think there's some reddit threads and such as well.

 

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marsilies[/url]":2m0rjo7k]

dfjdejulio[/url]":2m0rjo7k]

Lwio[/url]":2m0rjo7k]Don't like to pour cold water on this but it would be a good idea to see how well this works.

Got any friends in the preview program?

If so, ask them tomorrow.

Or just find the inevitable twitch feeds.

Here's the first Twitch video I've found, someone playing Super Meat Boy:
http://www.twitch.tv/isaac171/b/669439867

More streams are out there:
http://www.twitch.tv/search?query=xbox+one+backwards+compatibility#stq=xbox one backwards compatibility&stp=1

 

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Video interview about Backwards Compatibility, showing XBox One playing Borderlands:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPQuDyWULNU

The techincal issues are apparently that they can't use any 360 USB peripherals or the "original Kinect" in games, so games that need those won't be made available.

Otherwise, for normal games, the only limitation is getting the legal clearance to distribute the emulated version of the game.


The idea of using the Kinect 2 for 360 Kinect games isn't directly addressed. Maybe there'd be a way to "dumb down" the Kinect 2 output to a form that would work for 360 Kinect games, and the emulator could pass it through.

 

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auxilio[/url]":8iuf20e0]I can't watch your video right now, but I wonder what the issue is with 360 USB devices? Should be pretty simple to pass the input of those through to the VM that the Xbox 360 game is running inside.

Maybe they didn't emulate that part of the OS. I mean, they had to do some sort of hardware translation between the XBox One controller and the 360 controller the games expect, but maybe they didn't go any further than that in regards to peripherals. Keep in mind it's not a straight "VM" we'd think of like Windows running in a VM, but a 360 OS emulator.

 

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auxilio[/url]":62bjomzm]

marsilies[/url]":62bjomzm]

auxilio[/url]":62bjomzm]I can't watch your video right now, but I wonder what the issue is with 360 USB devices? Should be pretty simple to pass the input of those through to the VM that the Xbox 360 game is running inside.

Maybe they didn't emulate that part of the OS. I mean, they had to do some sort of hardware translation between the XBox One controller and the 360 controller the games expect, but maybe they didn't go any further than that in regards to peripherals. Keep in mind it's not a straight "VM" we'd think of like Windows running in a VM, but a 360 OS emulator.

But passing the USB input into that Xbox 360 OS emulator should be technically simple. For Xbox 360 peripherals, no translation should be needed.

It depends on if they even built USB peripheral support into the emulator. According to the video, they rebuilt the 360 OS, they didn't just slap a hardware emulator under the existing 360 OS.

 

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WaveRunner[/url]":1i3xmfla]

dfjdejulio[/url]":1i3xmfla]

Shuffy[/url]":1i3xmfla]Backwards compatibility on consoles doesn't mean I get to play the old games any better than they were on the old system.

Well, in this specific case it actually does, because (judging by the Twitch streams) features like streaming that were not present on the old system do work with backwards compatible titles, and you can play using that new controller with the fancy paddles, and you can snap some software, stuff like that.

I think he's talking about the 480p upscaled graphics to 1080p is not a selling point.

Most of the 360 games rendered at 720p resoluton, and the 360 itself could upscale to 1080p. I don't think any 360 game rendered as low as 480p, unless of course that's what you set the output resolution as.
https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/1114423/

 

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Shuffy[/url]":2eathydk]I don't know. I was just really annoyed when there were a lot of people who were all "if it doesn't play the old games, I won't buy the new system" like somehow the games for the new system aren't really relevant.

People have different reasons and rationals for buying consoles. If BC isn't a factor for you, that's fine, but that doesn't mean that it can't be a valid factor for anyone else.

 

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TheLug_1[/url]":2obtip32]

dfjdejulio[/url]":2obtip32]

TheLug_1[/url]":2obtip32]The 360 game save MUST be in cloud storage for it to be ported over. It will then sync up after the XBO play session in case you decide to play on the 360 again. If you move the cloud save back to the local 360, the XBOX one does not see it and will start the game next time as if a save does not exist.

So, I guess this sucks if:
* You do not have a Gold account.
* You routinely use multiple storage devices for save management, to work around games that have poor support for saves of multiple parallel playthroughs (eg. "Fallout").
* You keep your profile and saves on removable media in order to better play on multiple XBoxes.
* Your collected save data is bigger than the 512MB (½GB) they allow to sync this way.

(I will almost certainly turn on Gold for a month to do the transfers, but I really wish USB storage were an option.)

Pretty much. There have been lots of requests for M$ to up the amount of storage for cloud saves from 512MB, but the current "reasoning" for the hard limit is because it mimics the initial external 360 memory modules which topped out at 512MB.

One possible workaround for the storage limit when transferring would be to move some games to the cloud, open them on the Xbox One, sync the save, then remove the game from the cloud.

 

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dfjdejulio[/url]":3smkqcu3]

marsilies[/url]":3smkqcu3]
One possible workaround for the storage limit when transferring would be to move some games to the cloud, open them on the Xbox One, sync the save, then remove the game from the cloud.

Microsoft claims the same 512MB storage limit is present on the XBox One, and that save syncing is automatic.

http://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/ ... -saves-faq

So, unless I'm missing something, without any facility for manual management on the XB1, I'm just not sure what to do here.

That's the FAQ for XBox One game saves. The BC games are using an emulated XBox 360 OS, so the info on XBox 360 cloud game saves apply:
http://support.xbox.com/en-US/browse/xb ... %20storage

See this on turning off cloud saves:
http://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-360/ ... save-games

Turn off cloud storage for saved games

There are two options to turn off cloud storage for game saves:

1) Move saved games out of the cloud and turn off cloud saves
First, you need to move your game saves out of the cloud. See Copy, move, or delete content for steps on how to move content from one storage device to another (for example, from Cloud Saved Games to Hard Drive).
http://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-360/ ... games-data

Once you've done this, you can turn off cloud storage. Here’s how:

From the Xbox 360 Dashboard, go to Settings, and then select System.

1. Select Storage.
2. Highlight Cloud Saved Games, and then press Y.
3. Select Disable Cloud Saved Games.

I haven't used the BC on Xbox One myself, so I don't know if all these menu options exist in the emulated 360 guide menu, but if they do, it should work.

 

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Also, FYI, game saves can range from something like 70KB in size to maybe 20MB in size:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/xbox360/927749- ... -save-file

Skyrim game saves that are 20MB in size typically have issues with gameplay, and are typically that size due to an inventory bogged down with a bunch of junk:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/615803-t ... m/62709404

 

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TomXP411[/url]":z21msu6c]The first thing I would do is get rid of the boundaries preventing amateurs from writing XBox software. IMO, anyone with an interest should be able to develop for the platform, even if they never publish or publicly release a line of code...

Well, ID@Xbox is working to eliminate the boundaries. There's no cost to join, and soon people who make their game as a Universal Windows App will be able to use their retail Xbox One as a dev kit:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers/ID

The second thing I would do is open up the platform for non-game applications.

They're doing this too, with the Universal Apps:
http://www.theverge.com/2015/2/17/80507 ... -sdk-plans

TomXP411[/url]":z21msu6c]Third, I'd get rid of the boundaries preventing PC gamers and console gamers from interacting: I see no reason I shouldn't be able to play Borderlands on my PC while my friend plays it on his XBox One. I'll go a step further: If I buy a game on XBox One that's also on PC, I should get both licenses for a nominal extra charge.

They're working on this too with Windows 10 and Xbox One, with both cross-buy (buy it and get it on both PC and Xbox), and cross-play (PC and Xbox players can play together).
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015- ... mes-listed

Finally, I'd work to make things like Hololens and virtual reality an integrated part of the experience, with an end-game of creating a VR world where people no longer write "games", but rather create their own pockets of reality that host gaming content. (Read Ready Player One to see what I mean.)

I don't know about their "end-game," but MS is working on integrating Hololens and VR into the Xbox One:
http://www.techradar.com/us/news/gaming ... ns-1287232
http://www.cnet.com/news/why-oculus-par ... y-headset/
http://vrfocus.com/archives/16866/micro ... -valve-vr/

 

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TheLug_1[/url]":26ej3em7]There are no storage options available from the emulated 360 guide menu on the xbox one.

Yeah, I found a video, and the "Settings" panel on the emulated guide has just "Profile" and "Preferences" for menu options.

Also, I've gathered that DLC doesn't work yet for titles, such as for Mass Effect.

I think it's important to keep in mind that this is still technically a beta. The gameplay of the games seem fine, but it could be that MS is going to add some features to it before it's official launch in the winter.

 

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TomXP411[/url]":2yvwam8g]

marsilies[/url]":2yvwam8g]

I think it's important to keep in mind that this is still technically a beta. The gameplay of the games seem fine, but it could be that MS is going to add some features to it before it's official launch in the winter.

If there are features to add, this isn't even a beta yet... it's more of an alpha, or a tech preview.

Alpha Test: Literally "The First Test." This is a release to preview features and test core functionality. Not feature complete.
Beta Test: Literally "The Second Test." This is intended to be a complete product, with no new functionality. If no bugs are found, this would be the final version.

Microsoft hasn't really labeled it as being anything other than part of the Xbox Preview Program:
http://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/ ... review-faq

However, developers don't follow your definitions of Alpha vs. Beta as strictly as you imply. For example, the version that "if no bugs are found, this would be the final version," is often called a Release Candidate. Previous Windows beta programs have added features to the beta. Gmail was called a "beta" for years, and constantly added and changed features.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_ ... evelopment

My main point for the Xbox Backwards Compatibility was that it's not a "final release" product yet, whatever you want to call the development stage it's in. Even if MS figured it was "feature complete" when they started this preview, that doesn't preclude them from adding features to it during this phase, or even after the official release to all users.

 

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TheLug_1[/url]":3m1vplv0]

Shuffy[/url]":3m1vplv0]

At the moment, the majority reason I see why people want backwards compatibility is simply convenience. I get it. But that means it's a nice-to-have, not a must-have. If your platform stands on the shoulders of older games, then I see no point in investing in it if your future doesn't look so good. (I know this is the unpopular opinion but whatever!)

The couple of games I have seen seem to run a bit smoother and look a bit better. Plus, you have all of the regular XBO feature extras (snap, screenshot, gameDVR)

This video shows some minor cutscene improvements in Mass Effect, due to faster load times and better rendering capabilites:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjblk1ADq9k