VW’s dirty mission: Where’s the beginning and where’s the end?

Volkswagen's circumvention of federal emissions regulations means <em>serious</em> trouble.

Read the whole story

 

[DNSGeek]

If Volkswagen cheated not on emissions compliance but on safety regulations (say, fitting airbags with dummy wiring), things would be quite a bit worse—but not by much.

How can things be quite a bit worse, but not by much?

 

[theJonTech]

They cheated us and now aparently their stockholders

Painful lesson on honesty

 

[obarthelemy]

$18b for EPA violations when GM got less than $1b for killing 50 people ?
I'm all for environmental protection, but I tend to be for life protection... more... and this seems imbalanced.

 

[Sasparilla]

The Obama Administration, which cowers at actually prosecuting executives for misdeeds (hello to the banking industry execs that brought us 2008) should find out who came up with this idea and who approved it above them (mostly Americans I'm sure) and prosecute them with lengthy jail sentences…

Otherwise fines will mean nothing…seeing pictures of bad executives (hello Charles Keating) being marched to the penitentiary on the news actually might change some future behavior. JMHO….

 

[citpeks]

VW just made things harder, and more expensive, for everyone else.

More distrust, tighter regulations, more testing, more complex systems with mandated safeguards could all lead to higher costs that will have to be absorbed by someone, probably the car buyer. The Feds may not do much, but you can bet those at CARB are licking their chops, now and for the future.

GM did a pretty good job killing the U.S. passenger car diesel market in the 1980s. VW may have just snuffed it out again in the 2010s.

It was already hard enough to make a business case for such diesels in the U.S.

Mazda, which has had issues bringing their Skyactiv diesel to the U.S., is probably cursing VW, along with others in the industry.

 

[Fatesrider]

obarthelemy[/url]":k5sa6ejr]$18b for EPA violations when GM got less than $1b for killing 50 people ?
I'm all for environmental protection, but I tend to be for life protection... more... and this seems imbalanced.

The difference, I believe, is that the latter was an award after all the fat ladies sang while the former is merely what they potentially could be hit with in penalties.

I trust that clears up your misconceptions.

 

[mike_syn]

theJonTech[/url]":32rcgr4p]They cheated us and now aparently their stockholders

Shareholder lawsuit in 5...4...3...2...

 

[Statistical]

Ian Easson[/url]":27ivw7ba]"All this hot water steams from US regulators' discovery that VW engine software was engineered to explicitly circumvent US Federal and State emissions laws."

No, not at all.

This fraud was discovered by academic researchers, who reported it to the EPA, which was reluctant to proceed further.

Heads need to roll at the EPA.

Nonsense. The anomaly was discovered by academic researchers. They actually were not looking for it. They had been contracted to get real world testing on US diesel by an organization looking to improve emission standards in the EU. Ironically they were looking to us VW "success" with clean diesel in the US as proof that EU can get much tougher on diesel emissions.

The researchers found for two models of VW vehicles emissions 10 to 40x higher depending on model and conditions. As a control they had the same equipment measure the EPA test which those models were within 2% of standard. They notified VW, CA, and EPA with the findings.

VW stalled and obfuscated for nearly a year. The EPA went back and tested multiple vehicles from multiple years and found the problem was not isolated to just the two models found by the researchers. The idea the EPA was reluctant to proceed further is nonsense.

Today no diesel VW are sold in the US and VW has no COC for its 2016 lineup because the EPA is withholding its certs pending resolution.

 

[sporkme]

So is this only US cars or those sold in the EU as well? If the US is going nuts, how much more illegal must this kind of fraud be in the EU?

 

[JimboPalmer]

It could be worse, they could have deflated their tires.

The EPA would not concern itself with EU violations, that will be some other government.

 

[Oldmanalex]

I think that Elmer Fudd may be about to get his dweam of woast wabbit. OK, it is 20 years out of date, but that makes it a lot younger than most of my jokes, so I am reluctant to jettason it.

 

[mike_syn]

sporkme[/url]":2zuvd277]So is this only US cars or those sold in the EU as well? If the US is going nuts, how much more illegal must this kind of fraud be in the EU?

The EU regs are more stringent about CO2 than NOx, but I wouldn't be surprised if VW was pulling shenanigans there, too. I expect the EU regulators are arranging for some tests, not using the standard protocols.

 

[danpritts]

sporkme[/url]":4udvvncg]So is this only US cars or those sold in the EU as well? If the US is going nuts, how much more illegal must this kind of fraud be in the EU?

EU emissions regulations are looser on diesels. Maybe they are legal there as-is.

 

[Muon]

The death of diesel cars for another 40 years. Sigh. I wanted anything other than a massive pickup truck.

 

[CraigJ ✅]

This [dishonesty] is completely inconsistent with our core values, which include… responsibility. It goes totally against what we believe is right.

Clearly not.

 

[Nob Akimoto]

Seems to explain why a bunch of the Japanese manufacturers announced new diesel engines (Mazda with a turbocharged Skyactiv, and Honda with a VTEC based diesel) but never actually brought them to market: internal testing probably showed they couldn't do so with emissions regulations.

This is probably doubly bad for VW because in North America, at least, their whole schtick relies on the "crunchy" upper-middle class granola/birkenstock demographic. Being caught redhanded on lying with something as basic as NOx emissions is pretty much a brand killer on the level of Nike requiring compulsory KKK membership for its executives.

Also gives some context to Ford's cost problems with diesel emissions control. They spend a lot more on things like ceramics related particulate filters in the EU market.

 

[psd]

obarthelemy[/url]":2u4hi2dq]$18b for EPA violations when GM got less than $1b for killing 50 people ?
I'm all for environmental protection, but I tend to be for life protection... more... and this seems imbalanced.

I think the key difference is the wilfulness or knowing intent or some such legalese...

 

[Nob Akimoto]

arsguy[/url]":1048x4sj]What if VW didn't cheat but adhered *exactly* to what the regulations permitted?

Perhaps the regulations are so poorly drafted that the engineers said "Hey look! The rules only require us to meet the maximum *during the test.* They permit changing parameters after the test. We just have to figure out how know when the car is being tested."

If that's what happened, it would explain why no one at VW squaked. They just thought the rules allowed what they did.

They're not. CARB and EPA have been pretty careful on making these things airtight. Note that this isn't the first time a manufacturer has been caught cheating:
http://www2.epa.gov/enforcement/detroit ... settlement

 

[Statistical]

danpritts[/url]":283yajz3]

sporkme[/url]":283yajz3]So is this only US cars or those sold in the EU as well? If the US is going nuts, how much more illegal must this kind of fraud be in the EU?

EU emissions regulations are looser on diesels. Maybe they are legal there as-is.

The US models wouldn't even meet EU compliance. The testers in WV showed that. US emission standard is 40 mg/km, the EU is 80mg (180mg before 2014). WV was an average of 920mg/km across a variety of driving conditions (600 to 1600 mg/km). I can't imagine VW used a different powertrain for the US. I mean if they could do 180mg/km why not just use that a cheat less to meet US standards?

 

[hornetfig]

danpritts[/url]":2yrgstiu]
EU emissions regulations are looser on diesels. Maybe they are legal there as-is.

EU fuel regulations are themselves stricter, so the vehicle may put out less NOx when run on European diesel anyway.

 

[signal11]

"Criminal probe?"

Here's my prediction (hold onto your hats everyone, it's a doozy) - no one will be prosecuted, no one will serve time.

 

[CraigJ ✅]

psd[/url]":q24ov9tb]

obarthelemy[/url]":q24ov9tb]$18b for EPA violations when GM got less than $1b for killing 50 people ?
I'm all for environmental protection, but I tend to be for life protection... more... and this seems imbalanced.

I think the key difference is the wilfulness or knowing intent or some such legalese...

I also think it was about not harming a huge American employer too much. GM knew about the issue and did nothing until forced to. Straight out of Fight Club:

JACK (V.O.)
I'm a recall coordinator. My job is to apply the formula.
....
JACK (V.O.)
Take the number of vehicles in the field, (A), and multiply it by the probable rate of failure, (B), then multiply the result by the average out-of- court settlement, (C). A times B times C equals X...

JACK
If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

BUSISNESS WOMAN
Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?

JACK
Oh, you wouldn't believe.

BUSINESS WOMAN
... Which... car company do you work for?

JACK
A major one.

 

[Nob Akimoto]

Also, on people saying "Well other manufacturers are probably doing this too!"...

A fair number of manufacturers who rely on North American sales have been caught using defeat devices or other methods to skirt Clean Air Act regulations in the past, were hit by relatively heavy fines (Honda North America paid around a quarter billion back in the late 90s) and suffered through increased scrutiny of their vehicles by the responsible regulatory agency.

So it's less likely that they're going to cheat again, knowing that it invites added scrutiny and costs on their end outside of just being fined.

 

[psd]

citpeks[/url]":1uhi46jr]VW just made things harder, and more expensive, for everyone else.

More distrust, tighter regulations, more testing, more complex systems with mandated safeguards could all lead to higher costs that will have to be absorbed by someone, probably the car buyer. The Feds may not do much, but you can bet those at CARB are licking their chops, now and for the future.

GM did a pretty good job killing the U.S. passenger car diesel market in the 1980s. VW may have just snuffed it out again in the 2010s.

It was already hard enough to make a business case for such diesels in the U.S.

Mazda, which has had issues bringing their Skyactiv diesel to the U.S., is probably cursing VW, along with others in the industry.

The cost is justified by the free market that can only work properly when the cheaters are rooted out.

 

[dlux]

signal11[/url]":20gaqa0z]"Criminal probe?"

Here's my prediction (hold onto your hats everyone, it's a doozy) - no one will be prosecuted, no one will serve time.

Probably a few lightly-soot-stained golden parachutes for their trouble as well.

 

[psd]

arsguy[/url]":8rar8q20]What if VW didn't cheat but adhered *exactly* to what the regulations permitted?

Perhaps the regulations are so poorly drafted that the engineers said "Hey look! The rules only require us to meet the maximum *during the test.* They permit changing parameters after the test. We just have to figure out how know when the car is being tested."

If that's what happened, it would explain why no one at VW squaked. They just thought the rules allowed what they did.

Too late now; that is not what they have admitted.

 

[srs]

I am so tired of these meaningless fines.

Real people were involved in this fraud and these real people need to go to prison. From the engineers to the managers to the CEO if need be. Just levying fines on the corporation hurts nobody but the shareholders, and (probably eventually) the taxpayers.

 

[CraigJ ✅]

arsguy[/url]":vai3ainu]What if VW didn't cheat but adhered *exactly* to what the regulations permitted?

Perhaps the regulations are so poorly drafted that the engineers said "Hey look! The rules only require us to meet the maximum *during the test.* They permit changing parameters after the test. We just have to figure out how know when the car is being tested."

If that's what happened, it would explain why no one at VW squaked. They just thought the rules allowed what they did.

Perhaps you missed the part where they admitted to do exactly this and apologized for it. It's in this article.

 

[OrangeCream]

obarthelemy[/url]":2p5lwp4n]$18b for EPA violations when GM got less than $1b for killing 50 people ?
I'm all for environmental protection, but I tend to be for life protection... more... and this seems imbalanced.

These emit over 1g NOx per km. NOx emissions trigger reduced lung function, asthma attacks, heart attacks, and other cardiovascular issues as well as cancer. 1 car may have negligible effects, but a half million cars dumping a 500kg per km isn't negligible.

 

[Statistical]

hornetfig[/url]":s84ekx13]

danpritts[/url]":s84ekx13]
EU emissions regulations are looser on diesels. Maybe they are legal there as-is.

EU fuel regulations are themselves stricter, so the vehicle may put out less NOx when run on European diesel anyway.

Nope. The emission stands in EU are 80 or 180 mg/km (EURO5 and EURO6). The emission standards in US are 40mg/km. It doesn't matter VW was as much as 920mg/km.

BTW NOx isn't an imperfection of diesel. It is produced from Nitrogen and Oxygen in the atmosphere under high temperatures. Diesel has higher temps than Gasoline so it tends to produce more NOx. The fuel could be laboratory grade synthetic and it would still produce NOx.

 

[OrangeCream]

Superhair[/url]":3hy0bton]And yet the world is still going to warm and turn to a cess pool of steaming human filth regardless of VW's gaming of EPA regs.

Regardless? You mean because they exemplified the same kind of disregard that everyone else in a position to hurt the environment, such as Exxon, we are doomed.

 

[andgarden]

The civil litigator in me marvels at the extent of the possible lawsuits here. As just one example, all of the other car manufacturers who were following the rules (at least, we hope they were) could potentially sue VW for unfair competition. (Whether they would be able to sufficiently trace lost business and profit to VW is a different question.)