US spy satellite agency declassifies high-flying Cold War listening post

The JUMPSEAT satellites loitered over the North Pole to spy on the Soviet Union.

See full article...

 

[cynrh]

Incorrect. Don't treat Wikipedia as a reliable source. The name used by the Germans in their own engima transmission when referring to Y-Gerat. X Gerat did not use the code name Wotan in enigma to distinguish the two systems. I suggest you read Most Secret War by R V Jones and The Battle of the Beams: The secret science of radar that turned the tide of the Second World War by Tom Whipple.

 

[Antron Argaiv]

And given the state of technology then, a lot of it must have been people sitting at consoles with headphones on, typing furiously!

Yeah, in the computer biz, there was always a joke about where the first three models of a new top-end machine would be delivered...NWS, Los Alamos Lab, and an address in Virginia.

Ever wonder how Google Translate got so good?

 

[Albino_Boo]

View attachment 127311

Once again. It was not a mistake or luck. It was a logical deduction based on available information.

 

[cynrh]

Once again. It was not a mistake or luck. It was a logical deduction based on available information.

R V Jones:

The fact that it was known as Wotan had nothing to do with its method of working.

And so while Wotan may have had one eye for Y (which precipitated his guess), he could not have crossed eyes for X.

 

[SinclairZX81]

It looks like it was made out of pvc pipe, toothpicks, and Elmer's glue. I wonder how many weights it could hold up in a bridge test.

Clearly you didn't live through the Cold War. That was a time when we didn't mess around.

 

[SinclairZX81]

Thats a no no. Names shoukd be deliberately picked not to be associated with the purpose or appearance. The Germans named one of their night bombing navigation systems Wotan. British electronic intelligence, led by Dr R V Jones worked out the fact that it was a single beam system from the fact Wotan was a one eyed God.

Throughout the Cold War period, there was a set series of program code-names to select from. The first word designated the overall purpose of the project, and the second word designated the project itself. "Have" programs were aircraft prototypes or demonstrators, such as the Have Blue demonstrator aircraft for the F-117. "Compass" programs were aircraft-borne electronic attack platforms, such as Compass Call. At the time a program started, the first word was assigned based on what the thing did, and the second word was just the next off the list for individual programs.

The words were picked at random, and the lists kept as secret as we could.

 

[SinclairZX81]

The history of electronic intelligence goes as far back as WW1 but really became in earnest during WW2. The British had aircraft up hunting for German radar navigation systems in mid 1940. As the bomber campaign got under way electronic intelligence gathering aircraft accompanied formations and later jaming aircraft also were in the skys over Germany. The US learnt from British experience over Germany and flew specialist B24s near Japan to gather intelligence on Japanese radar. In the immediate post war era most of the electronic intelligence gathering was done by high altitude aircraft over the Soivet Union combined with ground based listening stations in the surrounding areas. As Soivet air defences got better high altitude flights became increasingly risky, see Gary Powers, and were replaced with the more expensive satellites.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferret_mission

One of the more-overlooked examples is the mission of the Graf Zeppelin II, sister airship to the Hindenberg, up the UK coast just before the war, trying to learn about the British Chain Home radar defense system. The operators heard the radar signals but thought they were electronic noise from the power grid - because the British used their power grid as a frequency standard for the radar system to synchronize the towers! So the airship flew up the entire British coast, watched the entire time by the Chain Home radars, and then went home and reported, "We saw no evidence of a British defense radar system."

It was one of the biggest electronic intelligence failures in history, and directly contributed to the British victory in the Battle of Britain. The German Luftwaffe went in assuming the British had no extensive radar system, when the exact opposite was true.

 

[SinclairZX81]

Started before the war - pre-war the Germans flew the Graf Zeppelin airship along the British Chain Home radar network looking for signals, found nothing (they were looking at too short a wavelength) and thus believed that the British had no operational radar ...

Ninja'd. Figures with this crowd.

 

[CharlesHouston]

Interesting reference to IR ICBM launch detection. I wonder if the DSP satellites supplanted the need for that capability.

DSP is geosynchronous (and so equatorial) and cannot see the more northerly regions - most Soviet/Russian ICBM silos are not too far north but they are often on the "limb" of the Earth for DSP. A satellite in that elongated orbit can see the silos more from directly overhead (if in the right part of the orbit) and can see infrared events on Soviet/Russian bases on the northern shore of Russia. And events near pipelines, etc.

As a nit - the orbit should be referred to as an "elongated" orbit since all orbits are elliptical. As an orbital mechanics guy that term bugs me.

 

[CharlesHouston]

The molniya orbit is interesting, the high latitude of most of the population in the USSR made this a requirement for USSR communications satellites, a constraint not present in most of the US which IIRC used a higher proportion of geostationary satellites compared to the USSR.

This quirk of geography/orbital mechanics supposedly (it's been a while since I read this, too tired to do a fact check) meant that the USSR was further ahead on communications handoff tech for a while, out of necessity.

Many northerly countries use those high (63) degree inclinations and highly elongated orbits. Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Canada, etc need coverage up in the more northerly latitudes.

 

[CharlesHouston]

One of the more-overlooked examples is the mission of the Graf Zeppelin II, sister airship to the Hindenberg, up the UK coast just before the war, trying to learn about the British Chain Home radar defense system. The operators heard the radar signals but thought they were electronic noise from the power grid - because the British used their power grid as a frequency standard for the radar system to synchronize the towers! So the airship flew up the entire British coast, watched the entire time by the Chain Home radars, and then went home and reported, "We saw no evidence of a British defense radar system."

It was one of the biggest electronic intelligence failures in history, and directly contributed to the British victory in the Battle of Britain. The German Luftwaffe went in assuming the British had no extensive radar system, when the exact opposite was true.

You would think that the Germans would have had "tourists" drive up the coast with a camera. Those radar installations were hard to conceal. Or they could take photos from "mapping" aircraft, etc.

 

[CharlesHouston]

I wonder if this is what I saw re-enter the atmosphere on Election Night 1980. I was 14 and Reagan was winning easily, when I stepped outside and saw a strange ball of fire in the sky. For a second I was terrified as it looked like was headed for the nearby Air Force's nearby B-52 base, but then it became clear it was on a different trajectory and it kept going from southern horizon to northern, leaving a long trail of sparks behind it the entire way. The next day NASA issued a terse statement that it was "a Hughes orbital platform" which said more in what it didn't say than what it did.

If it was a Jumpseat it should have be nearing the farthest point of its orbit as it passed over, but it intuitively makes sense that if it had — for whatever reason — lost velocity by skimming the atmosphere at its lowest point it might fully reenter farter north. At any rate whatever it was, it was a wild sight that is deeply connected to all my other memories of what it was like growing up during the Cold War.

Not really possible. The orbit (inclination of 63 degrees) was selected to keep the perigee in the Southern Hemisphere and so the apogee in the Northern. We have seen debris, upper stages, etc etc reenter in the South Pacific, etc near perigee.

 

[Resistance]

Many northerly countries use those high (63) degree inclinations and highly elongated orbits. Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Canada, etc need coverage up in the more northerly latitudes.

Yes, but I was talking about when the orbit was first exploited. Those countries did not take advantage of that orbit until many years later.

 

[ZenBeam]

DSP is geosynchronous (and so equatorial) and cannot see the more northerly regions - most Soviet/Russian ICBM silos are not too far north but they are often on the "limb" of the Earth for DSP.

Geosynchronous doesn't mean geostationary, or that they are orbiting above the equator. Geosynchronous orbits can have steep inclinations.

 

[mcswell]

I wish we had as much transparency from the Soviet side as we do from the US side (which is still not a heck of a lot) I'm sure there's tons of equally interesting stories about how the Soviets perceived Americans that will never be told.

The Wikipedia article on the American movie The Russians are coming! The Russians are coming! says the movie was screened at the Kremlin: "...not only were the Russians thrilled with the movie, they were a little disappointed they hadn't thought of the plot first."
There are also numerous Soviet jokes, many about America--like the one Ronald Reagan famously told that starts out "Is it true that there is freedom of speech in the USSR, just like in the USA..."

 

[ZenBeam]

The Wikipedia article on the American movie The Russians are coming! The Russians are coming! says the movie was screened at the Kremlin: "...not only were the Russians thrilled with the movie, they were a little disappointed they hadn't thought of the plot first."
There are also numerous Soviet jokes, many about America--like the one Ronald Reagan famously told that starts out "Is it true that there is freedom of speech in the USSR, just like in the USA..."

Saw it as a kid, on TV. I'm not surprised they liked it. The movie wasn't mean or denigrating to Russians. Everyone, both sides, came off looking nice.

 

[Chuckstar]

You would think that the Germans would have had "tourists" drive up the coast with a camera. Those radar installations were hard to conceal. Or they could take photos from "mapping" aircraft, etc.

Why bother when you have a blimp? The U.S. did not invent over-reliance on remote intelligence gathering. We just perfected it.

 

[SomewhereAroundBarstow]

Not really possible. The orbit (inclination of 63 degrees) was selected to keep the perigee in the Southern Hemisphere and so the apogee in the Northern. We have seen debris, upper stages, etc etc reenter in the South Pacific, etc near perigee.

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm way out of my depth here so I'll take your word that it couldn't brush the atmosphere but then keep headed towards apogee and decay on the way. It would have been well over Canada when it went over the horizon. But that vague "Hughes orbital platform" statement has stuck with me all these years. Probably some other reconnaissance satellite given the polar orbit, I guess.

EDIT: Well, this just got interesting. If I'm reading this site right I think I saw a failed Kosmos launch that the US government then said was an old US satellite reentering.

S12054                   12054  1980-089A       P P  Z         Kosmos-1220 main debris     1980 Nov  4  S12055        VMFR         SU           1980 Nov  4 1508     Reentered Earth atmosphere 


S12055                   12055  1980-089B       R R2           Tsiklon-2 28-202 Stage 2    1980 Nov  4  L55443        RVSNR        SU           1980 Nov  4 1508     Reentered Earth atmosphere

 

[CharlesHouston]

Would these fit in an X-37B?

I wonder if an X-37B has been used to deploy these or something similar.

The X-37B payload bay is very small, only large enough for a very small satellite. These were BIG satellites that launched on Titan 3B boosters.

 

[CharlesHouston]

Why bother when you have a blimp? The U.S. did not invent over-reliance on remote intelligence gathering. We just perfected it.

Free countries often are denied access to authoritarian countries, we could not just get in a car and drive around. In pre-WWII England, a German agent could have rented a car and driven where ever they wanted. It would be easy to use a citizen of a third country to avoid suspicion/followers. But in 1934 Germany, every foreigner was considered a spy. In the Soviet Union it was not possible to just drive around the country.

In the US, we have people worried about balloons! But a Chinese (etc) agent could hire all kinds of people to drive around and put listening posts in range of interesting locations.

 

[Chuckstar]

Free countries often are denied access to authoritarian countries, we could not just get in a car and drive around. In pre-WWII England, a German agent could have rented a car and driven where ever they wanted. It would be easy to use a citizen of a third country to avoid suspicion/followers. But in 1934 Germany, every foreigner was considered a spy. In the Soviet Union it was not possible to just drive around the country.

In the US, we have people worried about balloons! But a Chinese (etc) agent could hire all kinds of people to drive around and put listening posts in range of interesting locations.

Good point. But it is true that the Germans had a blind spot regarding HUMINT, as has the U.S. in the time since countries like Russia were no longer closed off.

 

[CharlesHouston]

Geosynchronous doesn't mean geostationary, or that they are orbiting above the equator. Geosynchronous orbits can have steep inclinations.

Do you have a point here? Are you saying that DSP satellites are in an inclined geosynchronous orbit and if so what is your source?

DSP satellites are in geosynchronous orbits (my sources are the Visual Satellite Observers group as well as the International Scientific Optical Network and some understanding of what they are reporting) with near zero inclinations. Those orbits are also geostationary.

 

[Markkf]

When the first Soviet satellite was launched into a Molniya orbit, scientists in the US thought it was a failed attempt to launch into geoststionary orbit. Then they launched some more satellites into the same orbit and the Americans realized it actually had advantages for somewhere as far north as parts of the Soviet Union were.

It’s a great orbit for communication. You can use high gain stationary antennas for the majority of the orbit. Wish HAM SATS used it.

 

[ZenBeam]

Do you have a point here? Are you saying that DSP satellites are in an inclined geosynchronous orbit and if so what is your source?

DSP satellites are in geosynchronous orbits (my sources are the Visual Satellite Observers group as well as the International Scientific Optical Network and some understanding of what they are reporting) with near zero inclinations. Those orbits are also geostationary.

My point was that geosynchronous does not imply equatorial, as you had stated.

For an example of a non-equatorial orbit, DSP-16 launched on STS-44 to an inclination of 28.45°. Also, from the Wikipedia Defense Support Program page, DSP-19 was launched into a 28.6° parking orbit, although the mission later failed. So that's two non-equatorial launches, with almost the same inclination. Other DSP missions aren't specifically listed on the DSP, and the General Characteristics section doesn't list inclination.

Maybe you can link to an example of one of the missions that is in an equatorial orbit, but it isn't all of them.

 

[ZenBeam]

It’s a great orbit for communication. You can use high gain stationary antennas for the majority of the orbit. Wish HAM SATS used it.

Sirius satellite radio originally used three satellites in a Tundra orbit. I don't think that's exactly a Molniya orbit, although I'm not sure of the exact criteria. These were geosynchronous, and their orbits had the satellite apogee over Canada, just north of Manitoba, west of Hudson Bay.

Edit: Molniya orbits have a half-day period, Tundra orbits have a one-day period, according to Wikipedia.

 

[CharlesHouston]

My point was that geosynchronous does not imply equatorial, as you had stated.

For an example of a non-equatorial orbit, DSP-16 launched on STS-44 to an inclination of 28.45°. Also, from the Wikipedia Defense Support Program page, DSP-19 was launched into a 28.6° parking orbit, although the mission later failed. So that's two non-equatorial launches, with almost the same inclination. Other DSP missions aren't specifically listed on the DSP, and the General Characteristics section doesn't list inclination.

Maybe you can link to an example of one of the missions that is in an equatorial orbit, but it isn't all of them.

You have not heard of transfer orbits. Why were so many launches from Cape Canaveral to 28 degrees? Because that is the latitude of the launch site. The launch directly East to take advantage of the Earth's rotation - then the upper stages take the inclination out during injection into the transfer orbit and some in injection into final orbit.

DSP 23, COSPAR 2007-054A, has an orbital inclination of 9.9 degrees for instance.

Wikipedia is a good source but you gotta understand what they leave out.

 

[perilun]

The problem with these orbits is that must use fuel to prevent "nodal regression" ... which wants to pull that perigee southward so you would eventually be monitoring Antarctica most of the time for a while. This happens because Earth is not a perfect sphere.

 

[ZenBeam]

You have not heard of transfer orbits. Why were so many launches from Cape Canaveral to 28 degrees? Because that is the latitude of the launch site. The launch directly East to take advantage of the Earth's rotation - then the upper stages take the inclination out during injection into the transfer orbit and some in injection into final orbit.

DSP 23, COSPAR 2007-054A, has an orbital inclination of 9.9 degrees for instance.

Wikipedia is a good source but you gotta understand what they leave out.

Fair point, but 9.9 degrees is also not equatorial.

So which DSPs are equatorial?

Edit: You know what? Never mind. Geosynchronous does not mean equatorial.

 

[Dumpy Hampsterfire]

And given the state of technology then, a lot of it must have been people sitting at consoles with headphones on, typing furiously!

More than likely they were attending to the vast precursors to today's data centers, only housing an eardrum shattering amount of magnetic tap/reel to reel systems for recording those intercepted signals, and having to run around like worker bees swapping new reels for used ones.

Then came the era of hard drives and the noise noise noise rose to Grinch-Upsetting levels.

 

[SinclairZX81]

You would think that the Germans would have had "tourists" drive up the coast with a camera. Those radar installations were hard to conceal. Or they could take photos from "mapping" aircraft, etc.

They knew the towers were there, but didn't know what they were for. The big towers on some parts of the coast could be seen visually from the other side of the English Channel, from France. That new big towers had been built and that they might be radar towers was why the Graf Zeppelin II was sent on its mission.

 

[Chuckstar]

One of the more-overlooked examples is the mission of the Graf Zeppelin II, sister airship to the Hindenberg, up the UK coast just before the war, trying to learn about the British Chain Home radar defense system. The operators heard the radar signals but thought they were electronic noise from the power grid - because the British used their power grid as a frequency standard for the radar system to synchronize the towers! So the airship flew up the entire British coast, watched the entire time by the Chain Home radars, and then went home and reported, "We saw no evidence of a British defense radar system."

It was one of the biggest electronic intelligence failures in history, and directly contributed to the British victory in the Battle of Britain. The German Luftwaffe went in assuming the British had no extensive radar system, when the exact opposite was true.

The Germans knew those towers were radars, and did not mistake them for grid noise.

The Germans assumed that using 20-55 MHz frequencies with non-rotating antennas could not provide the precision needed for tracking airplanes, so they assumed it was designed for tracking off-shore ship traffic.

 

[mpotter1024]

Ordered.

FYI: There is a 1986 hardcover and a subsequent 1988 paperback. HPB only has the paperback, Amazon has a bunch of used hardbacks.

Thanks! Will get the hardback. What my Dad had. We don’t know what happened to his copy. My Mom said my Dad gave it to one of my brothers. My brother said he didn’t have it. I suspect my Dad had it in his Professor Emeritus university office. Before he died he tasked me to go thru all his items. He had several walls full of books and binders. I was going thru it methodically though slowly. Two of my brothers just barged in without mentioning went thru in a hurry hauling them off. So I suspect they gave his copy a family heirloom to charity. Thanks bros!