This family of electric motors will drive GM’s new electric vehicles

GM will have 22 new EVs on sale by 2023, and they'll all use these motors.

Read the whole story

 

[AgileAardvark]

I remember seeing ads for early battery lawnmowers maybe 15-20 years ago but in the last five years they have really taken off. I have one from Sun-Joe for my small city lawn, my Dad with a much larger lawn has an eGo mower. He loves it and he's certainly not someone who identifies as a tree-hugger - it's powerful, does the job and is so much easier to deal with than cantankerous gas engines.

Unless you need a riding mower there's little reason to buy a gas mower these days.

I had an electric Ryobi Mulchinator mower back in the early '90s. It worked fine back then and runtime was never a problem for my 1/4 acre lot. The main problem at the time was the lead/acid battery, which would go dead if you didn't condition it properly over the winter months. It was so quiet that when I first used it my neighbor thought I was pushing an inoperable mower around the yard for some reason. Due to a lawsuit over the shutoff switch sticking (which caused several foot/toe injuries), Ryobi pulled it from the market.

Given the state and cost of current technology, it's surprising that the vast majority of motorized residential yard tools have not already converted to electric power. I see people struggling with noisy, smelly, vibrating yard tools every weekend. I can't wait to get rid of my ICE snowblower.

 

[breze]

As you might expect, the main focus for this third generation of electric motors has been efficiency.

So they're building a new Hummer? Really?

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Making big, heavy and inefficient vehicles "electrical" does almost nothing for the environment.

We need a change in car culture, where the total pollution/CO2 footprint-per-mile matters. We do not need to convert a whole pile of polluting ICE vehicles to polluting EVs.

If we're going to get all high-horsey, why stop at small vehicles, when personal vehicles of any sort are so much more wasteful than buses and trains? I could make the argument that, had we instead gotten people onto electrified public transit instead of developing things like the Bolt or the Tesla models, we would use even fewer resources, have lower carbon emissions, and would have increased safety for pedestrians and cyclists. If you can expect people to give up trucks and SUVs, I can expect you to give up personal vehicles, no?

I don't really expect people to give up their SUVs, but there's obviously more a difference in switching to a small car, from an SUV, than there is switching from a SUV to public transit. While it would be good to switch as many people as possible to public transit (although not at the moment -- pandemic), lots of people aren't going to give up the convenience and privacy or owning a car.

Realistically, most people *could* switch to a small hatchback without any practical changes to their lifestyle (maybe they'd have to buy a trailer for the rare occasion where they would have used a truck bed).

Comparing a small aesthetic change to a huge lifestyle change isn't very convincing.

 

[nitts]

From an emissions standpoint it's definitely better, but it's still a safety clusterfuck for pedestrians and anyone driving a smaller car.

There is no such thing as a safe car when it comes to a car+bike or car+pedestrian. A Prius at 40kph is still deadly. Trying to solve the safety issue by making it 1.5 tons instead of 2 tons is ridiculous.

 

[breze]

Imagine getting a paper tiger of a company to give $2billion in stock and up to $700 million to pay for your R&D and production of a product you were going to do anyway. Well done GM.

That, and the way this guy they interviewed talks kinda like a techie convinces me that GM has really embraced startup culture.

Maybe they'll IPO and then get bought by Google soon.

 

[GorillaInAHumanSuit]

You might as well ask Americans to stop being American if you're going to demand they stop driving massively oversized vehicles.

We already gave up our supersize fries, don’t ask us to downsize any further!

I’m curious how well GM might support the crate market. It would be nice to have some (near) drop in replacements for older vehicles. Yes, I’m the type of person who would happily drive around an EV 70’s Cutlass.

Make the battery 442 volts, and you have a winner!

 

[Desaix]

Imagine getting a paper tiger of a company to give $2billion in stock and up to $700 million to pay for your R&D and production of a product you were going to do anyway. Well done GM.

Keep in mind that Nikola's money is just as real as their renderings...

 

[Desaix]

Now I see what kind of IP did GM get out of their Nikola's deal: they learnt how to do renderings.

BTW, 23 BEVs by 2023... is that the number of models or the total production run?

 

[breze]

As you might expect, the main focus for this third generation of electric motors has been efficiency.

So they're building a new Hummer? Really?

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Making big, heavy and inefficient vehicles "electrical" does almost nothing for the environment.

We need a change in car culture, where the total pollution/CO2 footprint-per-mile matters. We do not need to convert a whole pile of polluting ICE vehicles to polluting EVs.

I'd much rather the emissions of an electric hummer than those of a gas powered Honda

Genuine question: how do the emissions and overall environmental impact of an electric Hummer vs. a gas-powered Civic look from a cradle-to-grave perspective?

Also, will these developments do anything for expansion of the electrification of freight and commercial transport?

That seems like a really hard question to answer honestly, it depends heavily on projections about the ability to renewable-ify the grid. Hopefully the Hummer would look pretty good, otherwise we're doomed. But if it does look bad, then it doesn't really matter if you buy the Hummer -- we'd be doomed anyway because factories, etc will also be running off fossil fuels.

 

[DancesWithBikers]

Is it too much to ask for an EV SSR in Banana Yellow?

Is that Banana Slug Yellow?

 

[Boskone]

You might as well ask Americans to stop being American if you're going to demand they stop driving massively oversized vehicles.

We already gave up our supersize fries, don’t ask us to downsize any further!

I’m curious how well GM might support the crate market. It would be nice to have some (near) drop in replacements for older vehicles. Yes, I’m the type of person who would happily drive around an EV 70’s Cutlass.

I'd love to do an EV conversion of my uncle's worn-out old Willys MB. Motors for those things are hell to find, and his...well, it's been in fairly constant use since the early '40s.

And I actually did a bit of research for one for my Tundra. I still like the truck (I like the body better than any current-production pickup, by far), but after nearly 300k well-used miles it's pretty well worn out; I'm considering it as a project truck, and electrifying it would be cool.

But EV motors seem to come in "small and fairly expensive" and "not-small and colossally expensive", so at the very least the latter will have to wait a few years...if I keep the truck around.

 

[numerobis]

However, EVs are rapidly reaching the point where if you don't live in the deep boonies they're practical.

I don't know how long these things have been out, but I saw a battery-powered lawnmower the other day at Lowes. Never in my dreams as a youth would I have imagined that we have finally reached this point, give the near-century stalling of vehicle battery technology.

I remember seeing ads for early battery lawnmowers maybe 15-20 years ago but in the last five years they have really taken off. I have one from Sun-Joe for my small city lawn, my Dad with a much larger lawn has an eGo mower. He loves it and he's certainly not someone who identifies as a tree-hugger - it's powerful, does the job and is so much easier to deal with than cantankerous gas engines.

Unless you need a riding mower there's little reason to buy a gas mower these days.

I can't think of much more terrifying than flying lawnmowers.

Better not look up hover mowers, then.

I'm never sleeping again.

 

[SplatMan_DK]

Look, SplatMan, I know you have basically 0 understanding of American motoring culture, but let me lay this out in stark terms.

Thank you for taking the time to engage in serious debate.

I understand that you believe Americans "won't change". I disagree. Americans will change. That is a fact, and only a matter of time. It may take five decades, and you may f*ck up the planet before it happens. But it will happen eventually. At the latest it will happen when places like Texas becomes literally uninhabitable due to heat, or major areas along the west cost become uninhabitable due to excessive weather.

Your own reluctance - resignation even - to do anything, is massively contributing to the delay. But at some point reality will hit sufficiently hard for people do take action. You can choose to be a an agent of positive change, or an agent of no change. I can't force you. But the choice is there. Being passive about it is also a very clear choice (with very clear consequences).

5. There is no CO2 environmental footprint increase to the actual manufacture of a vehicle when moving to BEV propulsion. This myth is tired and needs to die.

So you are wrong. Very, very wrong.

That is not a position I can recognize, and it is not what current studies - including reports from VW - are showing. It would be nice if you could explain why you insist on that position.

Here are the facts as we know them:

For car models that exist as both ICE and EV the construction phase of the EV is more environmentally expensive, and the battery itself accounts for a massive 40% of the total cost (e-Golf).

The estimated break-even point for e-Golf vs ICE Golf in Europe (ECE) is 125.000 km on average. It is significantly lower in Scandinavian countries where the energy mix contains a significantly higher amount of sustainable energy. But it is not zero anywhere.


Here is an example report:
http://cleanfi.fi/data/documents/electr ... leanfi.pdf

And complaining that GM is making the pragmatic choice to sell a BEV the worst environmental offenders will actually buy is stupid and counterproductive.

For a correct calculation, we need to agree on an estimated set of lifetime kilometers/miles, and include engine maintenance and battery change. VW uses 298.000 km. for the Golf, so perhaps we could agree on that as a baseline?

EV's are at a disadvantage in this calculation as well, because batteries are a relatively costly compared to ICE engine repairs and maintenance.

That doesn't mean EV's aren't a net positive. They absolutely are. But not for an EV that gets sufficiently big, heavy and inefficient. As might be the case with an electrical Hummer.

(To say nothing of a Hummer running on the current US energy mix... in Texas.)

I own a 2014 e-Golf, and our household produces 5,2 MW/year from solar. We care about our footprint, and we limit it when possible and sensible. That doesn't make me an expert by any definition, but it's a topic that interests me so I am not just pulling random numbers out of my a**. I am keen to learn more about the facts and data you believe supports the position that I am "very very wrong".

.

 

[2TurnersNotEnough]

You might as well ask Americans to stop being American if you're going to demand they stop driving massively oversized vehicles.

Like with any other government social engineering programs (e.g. reducing/eliminating nicotine consumption), the solution is to make it no longer financially viable to continue down the current path. In this case, price in the true cost of the externalities of fuel production and road maintenance for a given vehicle, and people's behavior will change.

 

[Peevester]

Can I have a 5 wheel car with 3 wheel drive, please?

You want a who with a what and a side order of how?

 

[ironictoo]

nitpick but can you make the "2" a superscript in, I2R losses? It is I squared R, as in current squared times resistance = power lost to electrical resistance.

 

[DancesWithBikers]

>>I can't think of much more terrifying than flying lawnmowers.

>Better not look up hover mowers, then.

Terrifying enough?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soxxPyaAT1k

 

[SplatMan_DK]

If we're going to get all high-horsey, ...

This kind of response is problematic. It is the Godwin response that kills virtually any debate on environmental change.

Why is it "high-horsey"? Can we not even debate this subject without starting that shit?

 

[AgileAardvark]

There is no such thing as a safe car when it comes to a car+bike or car+pedestrian. A Prius at 40kph is still deadly. Trying to solve the safety issue by making it 1.5 tons instead of 2 tons is ridiculous.

If a driver in a vehicle without accident avoidance systems doesn't pay attention and plows into people, you're right that it doesn't make much difference beyond moderate speeds. But there is such thing as a "safer" vehicle in these situations. All else equal, a lighter vehicle can stop or change direction more easily to minimize impact force or avoid impact entirely. These effects will be enhanced when active safety systems (i.e. automated emergency braking) become prevalent.

Also, the shape of the front of a vehicle affects pedestrian injury severity. The EU already has implemented standards for this.

A larger issue is infrastructure design that ignores the needs of bike and pedestrian traffic, especially in urban areas, but that's a separate topic.

 

[numerobis]

Look, SplatMan, I know you have basically 0 understanding of American motoring culture, but let me lay this out in stark terms.

Thank you for taking the time to engage in serious debate.

I understand that you believe Americans "won't change". I disagree. Americans will change. That is a fact, and only a matter of time. It may take five decades, and you may fuck of the planet before it happens. But it will happen eventually. At the latest it will happen when places like Texas becomes literally uninhabitable due to heat, or major areas along the west cost become uninhabitable due to excessive weather.

Your own reluctance - resignation even - to do anything, is massively contributing to the delay. But at some point reality will hit sufficiently hard for people do take action. You can choose to be a an agent of positive change, or an agent of no change. I can't force you. But the choice is there. Being passive about it is also a very clear choice (with very clear consequences).

5. There is no CO2 environmental footprint increase to the actual manufacture of a vehicle when moving to BEV propulsion. This myth is tired and needs to die.

So you are wrong. Very, very wrong.

That is not a position I can recognize, and it is not what current studies - including reports from VW - are showing. It would be nice if you could explain why you insist on that position.

Here are the facts as we know them:

For car models that exist as both ICE and EV the construction phase of the EV is more environmentally expensive, and the battery itself accounts for a massive 40% of the total cost (e-Golf).

The estimated break-even point for e-Golf vs ICE Golf in Europe (ECE) is 125.000 km on average. It is significantly lower in Scandinavian countries where the energy mix container a significantly higher amount of sustainable energy. But it is not zero anywhere.


Here is an example report:
http://cleanfi.fi/data/documents/electr ... leanfi.pdf

And complaining that GM is making the pragmatic choice to sell a BEV the worst environmental offenders will actually buy is stupid and counterproductive.

For a correct calculation, we need to agree on an estimated set of lifetime kilometers/miles, and include engine maintenance and battery change. VW uses 298.000 km. for the Golf, so perhaps we could agree on that as a baseline?

EV's are at a disadvantage in this calculation as well, because batteries are a relatively costly compared to ICE engine repairs and maintenance.

That doesn't mean EV's aren't a net positive. They absolutely are. But not for an EV that gets sufficiently big, heavy and inefficient. As might be the case with an electrical Hummer.

(To say nothing of a Hummer running on the current US energy mix... in Texas.)

I own a 2014 e-Golf, and our household produces 5,2 MW/year from solar. We care about our footprint, and we limit it when possible and sensible. That doesn't make me an expert by any definition, but it's a topic that interests me so I am not just pulling random numbers out of my a**. So I am keen to learn more about the facts and data you believe you supports the position that I am "very very wrong".

I don't understand why you believe the delta from a gasser to the equivalent EV is worse for heavier vehicle classes. Can you explain that?

I fully understand that you feel the Hummer is obscene. But that's going to be true no matter what fuel it uses.

Depressing tidbit: apparently Europe is starting to get more and more SUVs. And they're opting to run them on diesel.

 

[Dzov]

GM’s wireless battery management system is expected to drive the company’s Ultium-powered EVs to market faster, as time won’t be needed to develop specific communications systems or redesign complex wiring schemes for each new vehicle. The wBMS helps to ensure the scalability of Ultium batteries across GM’s future lineup, encompassing different brands and vehicle segments.

I don't know about other people, but when I read 'wireless", I immediately think of "attack vector"...

Can I trust a car company to properly secure their wireless protocol/system...?

Also worried about interference -- wireless is unreliable as hell and I'm not seeing the benefit in this scenario.

 

[Dzov]

I suspect the hardest part of doing an electric retrofit is figuring out where to put the batteries.

If you don't mind popping wheelies all day just look at all the room in the back:

Lots of room in the front and the driveshaft tunnel, too. Looks like you could balance it OK.

You don't really want all your weight outside the wheels, or you limit your cars handling due to moment of inertia.

 

[Khaaannn]

You might as well ask Americans to stop being American if you're going to demand they stop driving massively oversized vehicles.

We already gave up our supersize fries, don’t ask us to downsize any further!

I’m curious how well GM might support the crate market. It would be nice to have some (near) drop in replacements for older vehicles. Yes, I’m the type of person who would happily drive around an EV 70’s Cutlass.

Check out Neil Young's Electric 1959 Lincoln-Continental - in 2016:

https://www.whichcar.com.au/features/ne ... al-mark-iv

 

[SplatMan_DK]

I don't understand why you believe the delta from a gasser to the equivalent EV is worse for heavier vehicle classes. Can you explain that?

Because they are more inefficient, and have larger batteries which are an initial cost that is higher than that of ICE vehicles.

Generally, the construction cost of an EV is offset by the lower energy consumed when it is used. By making it heavier and stuffing even larger batteries in there, we increase the distance it needs to travel before the total footprint breaks even.

A car that is sufficiently heavy and inefficient will eventually need to travel a distance that's longer actually possible.

There are also other implications. Hugely inefficient EVs are just a new kind of excessive pollution using a different technology. That doesn't help a lot. Until we get "free energy" (like efficient fusion, MSR fission reactors, etc) we need the energy spent per capita to decrease.

Depressing tidbit: apparently Europe is starting to get more and more SUVs. And they're opting to run them on diesel.

You are absolutely right. Sadly. That's yet another wrong direction driven by the automotive industry.

 

[Perrin42]

You might as well ask Americans to stop being American if you're going to demand they stop driving massively oversized vehicles.

We already gave up our supersize fries, don’t ask us to downsize any further!

I’m curious how well GM might support the crate market. It would be nice to have some (near) drop in replacements for older vehicles. Yes, I’m the type of person who would happily drive around an EV 70’s Cutlass.

Some would consider it heresy, but I'd drop an electric motor into my '57 Chevy in a heartbeat.

Also, I want my Seniorius Lurkius title back gosh darnit!

 

[Boskone]

You might as well ask Americans to stop being American if you're going to demand they stop driving massively oversized vehicles.

We already gave up our supersize fries, don’t ask us to downsize any further!

I’m curious how well GM might support the crate market. It would be nice to have some (near) drop in replacements for older vehicles. Yes, I’m the type of person who would happily drive around an EV 70’s Cutlass.

Some would consider it heresy, but I'd drop an electric motor into my '57 Chevy in a heartbeat.

Also, I want my Seniorius Lurkius title back gosh darnit!

Should've shut up when you had the chance.

 

[mhalpern]

GM’s wireless battery management system is expected to drive the company’s Ultium-powered EVs to market faster, as time won’t be needed to develop specific communications systems or redesign complex wiring schemes for each new vehicle. The wBMS helps to ensure the scalability of Ultium batteries across GM’s future lineup, encompassing different brands and vehicle segments.

I don't know about other people, but when I read 'wireless", I immediately think of "attack vector"...

Can I trust a car company to properly secure their wireless protocol/system...?

Also worried about interference -- wireless is unreliable as hell and I'm not seeing the benefit in this scenario.

reduces custom wiring, of course they could also do that by passing the battery information through a repeatable interface, would use less power too

 

[SplatMan_DK]

Perhaps if you had something more constructive to say people would actually engage you with something other than dismissal.

This got me a little curious.

How do you suggest I go about that? How would I make a "constructive" post on this topic? Can you give an example?

 

[bubish]

There is no such thing as a safe car when it comes to a car+bike or car+pedestrian. A Prius at 40kph is still deadly. Trying to solve the safety issue by making it 1.5 tons instead of 2 tons is ridiculous.

I think the safety issue is less with the weight and size, and more with how much easier it is to "disappear" in front of a huge, modern truck or SUV.

 

[Statistical]

I don't understand why you believe the delta from a gasser to the equivalent EV is worse for heavier vehicle classes. Can you explain that?

Because they are more inefficient, and have larger batteries which are an initial cost that is higher than that of ICE vehicles.

Generally, the construction cost of an EV is offset by the lower energy consumed when it is used. By making it heavier and stuffing even larger batteries in there, we increase the distance it needs to travel before the total footprint breaks even.

Break even compared to what? A smaller lighter BEV? Sure.

Break even compared to a giant heavy low efficiency gasoline powered hummer? No.

Yes in an ideal world everyone would buy the smallest, lighest, most efficiency BEV with the smallest battery possible that meets their needs.

In the real world if someone is going to buy a large SUV no matter what ... it would be better if they bought a BEV or PHEV over an ICEV.

 

[kragg]

You might as well ask Americans to stop being American if you're going to demand they stop driving massively oversized vehicles.

Thanks advertising.

 

[traumadog]

Interesting. So with a basic front-drive unit (how does it differ from the Bolt unit?) and an "assist" unit, the new Bigger Bolt can be AWD. Being able to burn more kw in two motors, of course, requires a bigger battery, which requires a bigger vehicle, etc etc. The key benefit of a Bolt, besides being electric with adequate (barely) range and (reasonably) performance, is that it provides a good amount of usable space inside of a small exterior package. Yes, I know, that doesn't sell in the US which is undoubtedly why the Bigger Bolt is coming and will almost certainly replace the current model entirely. Bets that the bigger one won't have any more seating room than the current one? If they improve the comfort of the front seats, though, it'll be worthwhile (can I retrofit them?).

Why would a second motor in the Bolt "burn more kW"?

It's not like there's a huge range difference between the single and dual motor Teslas...

Energy consumption and efficiency is hugely affected by acceleration and weight.

When you build a big and heavy EV to accelerate better, customers will use it. It will increase real-world consumed energy, while laving range almost unchanged because range is calculated with carefully controlled (and often ideal) parameters.

"If you make it accelerate better, then customers will use it, so you need a bigger battery"???

By that rationale, Ford should have then doubled the size of the gas tank on the GT500 vs the base EcoBoost Mustang.

 

[wffurr]

Are they going to finally bring prices down to mainstream levels? Last I looked, you can buy several efficient ICE cars for the cost of one EV (or an efficient ICE car and lifetime carbon offsets *and* go on a nice vacation and buy carbon offsets for *that too* and have money left over for your savings account).

I was just at a Toyota dealership for service and compared window stickers on a Civic and a Prius. The Prius cost $10000 more with an EPA-estimated annual gas cost savings of $300 vs the Civic. That's 33 *years* of driving to make up that cost difference. And that's not even a full EV, but a hybrid with mature technology that's been around for many years.

Fuel cost isn't the whole story for TCO; presumably EVs need even less maintenance than hybrids, and the Prius already has one of the lowest maintenance costs of any car ever made. But it had better be a pretty big maintenance savings to make up that kind of efficiency difference.

And this doesn't even get into the weeds of convincing people to buy a car based on total cost of ownership for their particular annual mileage and usage patterns, or even figuring that out for oneself.

 

[Perrin42]

You might as well ask Americans to stop being American if you're going to demand they stop driving massively oversized vehicles.

We already gave up our supersize fries, don’t ask us to downsize any further!

I’m curious how well GM might support the crate market. It would be nice to have some (near) drop in replacements for older vehicles. Yes, I’m the type of person who would happily drive around an EV 70’s Cutlass.

Some would consider it heresy, but I'd drop an electric motor into my '57 Chevy in a heartbeat.

Also, I want my Seniorius Lurkius title back gosh darnit!

Should've shut up when you had the chance.

Yeah, bit too late for that now. Didn't know the requirements for the title until after I lost it.

 

[traumadog]

GM’s wireless battery management system is expected to drive the company’s Ultium-powered EVs to market faster, as time won’t be needed to develop specific communications systems or redesign complex wiring schemes for each new vehicle. The wBMS helps to ensure the scalability of Ultium batteries across GM’s future lineup, encompassing different brands and vehicle segments.

I don't know about other people, but when I read 'wireless", I immediately think of "attack vector"...

Can I trust a car company to properly secure their wireless protocol/system...?

Also worried about interference -- wireless is unreliable as hell and I'm not seeing the benefit in this scenario.

That said, I wouldn't expect the data telemetry for individual batteries to match the bit volume (or need the consistent connection quality) of a 4k Netflix stream.

And remember, we're only talking battery-to-controller, which might mean a foot or two - similar to the data transmission sent now from your TPMS.

 

[Statistical]

I was just at a Toyota dealership for service and compared window stickers on a Civic and a Prius.

That is a rather open minded Toyota dealership to have new Honda Civics on the lot.

You sure you were comparing apples to apples similar features and options?

A Corolla Hybrid is about $2K more than a similarly equipped Corolla.

 

[rosen380]

So GM was looking for an "executive chief engineer of electric vehicles", and picked a guy who's last name starts with they abbreviation of KiloWatt?

Well played. I am now interested.


Obviously the next big corvette model will be hybrid (if not full electric) and thus be even more of a radical change than the new mid-engine model? Interesting times.

I'm thinking hybrid for the next Vette. Despite the ability to get obscene amounts of power and torque out of electric drives, the battery is still an issue, and a 5000# Vette (after stuffing more than 100 kwh of battery into it) isn't going to be attractive.

The base model C8 has a 3535 pound curb weight; figuring about 1389 pounds for the battery (weight of the 93 kWh battery in the Taycan) and we're still at 4924 But, how does the weight of the other electric bits weigh relative to what you get to ditch?

The Panamera and Taycan are similar in size-- the latter weighs about 450 pounds more despite the extra 1389 pound battery, so I suspect that the EV C8 above would probably still just be around 4000 pounds or so.

 

[IntellectualThug]

Perhaps if you had something more constructive to say people would actually engage you with something other than dismissal.

This got me a little curious.

How do you suggest I go about that? How would I make a "constructive" post on this topic? Can you give an example?

This

As you might expect, the main focus for this third generation of electric motors has been efficiency.

So they're building a new Hummer? Really?

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Making big, heavy and inefficient vehicles "electrical" does almost nothing for the environment.

We need a change in car culture, where the total pollution/CO2 footprint-per-mile matters. We do not need to convert a whole pile of polluting ICE vehicles to polluting EVs.

Could very easily have been something like this:

It's unfortunate so much focus has gone into building BEVs that take up so much infrastructure to accommodate and produce. But, I suppose this is a first step to altering how people think about EVs and getting the biggest carbon addicts to start changing their ways.

I wonder, however, how people might start pushing others to think differently about their vehicles and how they use them, though. Maybe enact incentives for electrical efficiency like California on a national level or start lobbying for CAFE-style requirements for BEVs.

Any time you outline a complaint, propose a solution or at least the start of a solution. Otherwise it's just whining. No amount of shrill declarations of the doom of the planet actually move us in the direction of, you know, fixing it. Concrete suggestions for achieving practical outcomes do.

 

[Toastr]

So GM was looking for an "executive chief engineer of electric vehicles", and picked a guy who's last name starts with they abbreviation of KiloWatt?

Well played. I am now interested.


Obviously the next big corvette model will be hybrid (if not full electric) and thus be even more of a radical change than the new mid-engine model? Interesting times.

I'm thinking hybrid for the next Vette. Despite the ability to get obscene amounts of power and torque out of electric drives, the battery is still an issue, and a 5000# Vette (after stuffing more than 100 kwh of battery into it) isn't going to be attractive.

The base model C8 has a 3535 pound curb weight; figuring about 1389 pounds for the battery (weight of the 93 kWh battery in the Taycan) and we're still at 4924 But, how does the weight of the other electric bits weigh relative to what you get to ditch?

The Panamera and Taycan are similar in size-- the latter weighs about 450 pounds more despite the extra 1389 pound battery, so I suspect that the EV C8 above would probably still just be around 4000 pounds or so.

Yeah, the LT1 engine in the C8 weighs 465 lbs by itself, without the transmission and associated bits and pieces. A sub-4000 lb electric 'vette is totally doable with today's tech.

 

[Scandinavian Film]

If we're going to get all high-horsey, ...

This kind of response is problematic. It is the Godwin response that kills virtually any debate on environmental change.

Why is it "high-horsey"? Can we not even debate this subject without starting that shit?

We are debating. Others and I are putting forward that it's easier to convince large truck/SUV owners to buy electric versions of those vehicles than it will be to convince them to switch to electric AND change vehicle types, and thus that making electric versions of large and small vehicles alike will lead to lower emissions than only electrifying small vehicles. I called your post "high-horsey" because you refused to engage in that discussion and instead accused others of "refusing to discuss change."

 

[numerobis]

I don't understand why you believe the delta from a gasser to the equivalent EV is worse for heavier vehicle classes. Can you explain that?

Because they are more inefficient, and have larger batteries which are an initial cost that is higher than that of ICE vehicles.

Generally, the construction cost of an EV is offset by the lower energy consumed when it is used. By making it heavier and stuffing even larger batteries in there, we increase the distance it needs to travel before the total footprint breaks even.

A car that is sufficiently heavy and inefficient will eventually need to travel a distance that's longer actually possible.

There are also other implications. Hugely inefficient EVs are just a new kind of excessive pollution using a different technology. That doesn't help a lot. Until we get "free energy" (like efficient fusion, MSR fission reactors, etc) we need the energy spent per capita to decrease.

Depressing tidbit: apparently Europe is starting to get more and more SUVs. And they're opting to run them on diesel.

You are absolutely right. Sadly. That's yet another wrong direction driven by the automotive industry.

You can't compare the Hummer EV to an econobox EV without also comparing the diesel Hummer to a diesel (or gasoline) econobox.

Otherwise you're simply saying that larger cars take more resources -- which is completely obvious and is not related to the type of drive train they have.