There are plenty of great choices if you want to spend less than $15K on an EV

There's a lot of good Hyundai and Kia EVs in this price bracket, plus the Bolt and i3.

See full article...

 

[niwax]

CR lost all credibility with me when they gave the Eagle Talon, Plymouth Laser and Mitsubishi Eclipse all wildly different ratings.

I don't know how they compile their ratings for used cars, but their reliability study for new vehicles is an opinion poll of prospective buyers among their readers... Unsurprisingly it happens to align with the advertisers in the magazine doing the poll.

For what it's worth, the german ADAC (AA equivalent) publishes its statistics of breakdown assistance by model year and has enough data that many year old EVs are meaningfully represented: https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/unfall-schaden-panne/adac-pannenstatistik/. They find the 2019 Model 3 (oldest they have enough data for) at top 7 of 20 in its class, on par with a C class, just behind an Audi A4 and just ahead of a BMW 3 series. Younger model years are a lot better still with the 2021 and 2022 both on number 2. Ie, perfectly unremarkably decent. The Ioniq 5 is the worst, albeit only with 2022 data, largely because of the 12V battery problems. The BMW i3 tops the charts across all similar sized cars and all years and the VW id3/Cupra Born are similary in the top 10%. In general, they find that EVs are about half as likely to have issues overall and the biggest issue across both ICE and EV are degrading starter batteries and electronics issues, so you best bet for both is t go to a manufacturer who has their shit together on those fronts, which major EV manufacturers should. Your basic mechanical stuff shouldn't be an issue in almost any car under 10 years if its decently maintained.

 

[some guy in San Diego]

About 95% of all trips driven in America are under 30 miles. Less than 1% of trips are over 100 miles. I think Americans have a tendency to wildly overstate the importance of road trip worthiness. This is the same misguided thinking that leads people to purchase an SUV so they can go to McDonald’s and take the kids to soccer practice.

Sure, over 90% of my trips are taking my kid to school/day camp and coming back, going to the grocery store, and other stuff around my suburb/neighboring suburbs or occasionally in the city (I'm less than 30 miles from downtown). But I take an over 30-mile trip almost every weekend (there are a few things on opposite corners of the metro area that we like to go to), a trip of over 70 miles at least monthly, and last year when we didn't have the budget or vacation time to take trips by plane we took 3.5-4.5 hour one-way trips almost every month (or why my Ioniq 5 that's less than a year old has over 10k miles on it despite me working from home). Less than 1% of my trips were over 100 miles, even round trip, sure ... but trips over 250 miles round-trip were over a quarter the miles I've driven since I got my Ioniq 5. And I'd bet a lot that 100-250 mile round trips were at least another quarter.

And yes, of course you purchase an SUV (if we're going to call unibody crossovers with absolutely no off-road pretensions like my RWD Ioniq 5 "SUVs") to take the kid(s) to school and soccer practice. That's what they're designed for, and no one but internet trolls thinks otherwise.

/having said that, having a strict 300-mile range cutoff seems a bit strict (granted, I drive an EV with almost 320 miles of nominal range). There can't be very many trips that are viable with 300 miles of nominal range that aren't with 280, or that would even need another charging stop.

 

[mmiller7]

Your "Ah" is obviously bogus and makes no sense, excepting, perhaps, for an electric bicycle. I suspect that you actually meant the units to be KWh.

Very confusing why this is being downvoted - KWh is the standard units that would let you compare apples to apples between other EVs without worrying about what voltage the platform runs on.

 

[Tallawk]

My 2020 Bolt got flagged for a battery problem by its overly sensitive software last year and spent 6 weeks on the lot waiting for a replacement. I’ve now heard from people who have spent multiple months without their cars due to unavailability of replacement batteries. It sounds like Hyundai/Kia 800V vehicles have the same issue with the ICCU. Yes, the warranty (usually) covers the cost, but parts availability is an under discussed issue with a number of low-volume vehicles, which happens to include most EVs.

Same here. Took GM about four or five months to scare up a replacement, and even then it only happened because the one my car received was earmarked for another car but the car was "elsewhere."
That said, I got to drive around in a loaner: a Blazer EV, which was very nice. It all worked out.

 

[MsSuperPartyWonderFunDay]

I don't think you can mention used Hyundai/Kia EVs without talking about ICCU issues. I look at the ICCU issue pretty much the same way I looked at Subaru head gasket issues, a potentially very very expensive drivetrain issue that is widespread and will keep you from being able to use the vehicle until it's addressed. Therefore I'd want a substantial discount so that I could self-insure against an eventual failure. For me $15k is too much to pay for a vehicle was a likely mid 4 figure repair bill staring me down, others might have a different risk and financial position.

Dr Gitlin
Yes, I flag the 12 V system reliability in this article.

The Ioniq's ICCU is more than just the 12V system. It's also the inverter that converts AC charging to DC charging for the traction battery. How do I know? Because the ICCU in my Ioniq 6 shit the bed during the cold snap this winter. The 12V battery wouldn't automatically get topped up, and neither would the traction battery charge from my Level-2 charger.

EDIT: I suppose technically the circuitry in the ICCU that handled charging the traction battery could have still been good, and when the ICCU died, it popped the 130 amp fuse on the traction battery which lead to inability to charge from AC. That fuse had to be replaced along with my ICCU. In any case, I'd still argue that it doesn't have 12V system reliability problems (the 12V system has worked just fine when the 12V battery is charged), but that it's prone to catastrophic failures of the charging system. Having said that, I still absolutely love the car more than any I've had before it!

 

[DauntkessDave]

An ioniq 5 or 6 for $15,000?
Is this real life?

An ioniq 5 or 6 for $15,000?
Is this real life?

Just checked, they are out there!

 

[MsSuperPartyWonderFunDay]

My 2020 Bolt got flagged for a battery problem by its overly sensitive software last year and spent 6 weeks on the lot waiting for a replacement. I’ve now heard from people who have spent multiple months without their cars due to unavailability of replacement batteries. It sounds like Hyundai/Kia 800V vehicles have the same issue with the ICCU. Yes, the warranty (usually) covers the cost, but parts availability is an under discussed issue with a number of low-volume vehicles, which happens to include most EVs.

When the ICCU in my Ioniq 6 gave up the ghost, it only took the dealer two days to get a replacement in. And that was in early January this year, during the time when there seemed to be increased ICCU failures. The age of the 30+ day wait period for a replacement ICCU may be over.

 

[spaceminions]

I don't think you can mention used Hyundai/Kia EVs without talking about ICCU issues. I look at the ICCU issue pretty much the same way I looked at Subaru head gasket issues, a potentially very very expensive drivetrain issue that is widespread and will keep you from being able to use the vehicle until it's addressed. Therefore I'd want a substantial discount so that I could self-insure against an eventual failure. For me $15k is too much to pay for a vehicle was a likely mid 4 figure repair bill staring me down, others might have a different risk and financial position.

Agreed; saying there's a problem with the 12V system is not enough. "ICCU" should be specifically called out because the same board does multiple jobs. And it should be specified that this problem can cause the vehicle to stop working while driving and has a low but significant percentage chance to affect all versions of the vehicles over a wide year range. It would also be good to know whether any non-manufacturer claims say that the new version of the ICCU actually does fix the issue.
It's a shame, because if it wasn't for that they may be the best option for many people. So as not to repeat, I'll include a couple other people's good comments on this.

The Ioniq's ICCU is more than just the 12V system. It's also the inverter that converts AC charging to DC charging for the traction battery. How do I know? Because the ICCU in my Ioniq 6 shit the bed during the cold snap this winter. The 12V battery wouldn't automatically get topped up, and neither would the traction battery charge from my Level-2 charger.

I was literally just typing up a similar comment. Last year, Hyundai tried doing a software fix for this issue, which did not work because during the cold snap this year, a whole bunch of people had their ioniq fives all die at once. The good news is that Hyundai is now shipping revised parts to dealerships to install. Hopefully this will fix the issue, but we really won't know until the next cold snap I guess or couple of years.

(A lot of these seem to be dying in the cold because the back-up camera, seat and steering wheel heaters run off the 12 V battery, and the degraded ICCU attempts to charge the 12 V battery at a high current, arcs and then dies.)

Road trips are important, in part, because they are rare and special.

Try telling someone that the time they rushed over to see Grandma when she was in the hospital last year, or the time the whole family drove all night just to get pancakes from a favorite old diner the week before it closed for good, or the time they went to the mountains for a week during Spring Break, are unimportant.

Try telling them that the fifty times that they drove to the supermarket and the five hundred times they drove to work should be more important in their car calculus.

I think EVs can be practical road-trip cars, and DC fast-charging is good enough and getting better. And I think renting a minivan for a couple of weeks is a better road-trip expeirence than driving 90% of peoples' daily drivers across states. And you'd better hope other people come around to that, because telling people their favorite passtimes are unimportant is not a winning strategy.

Also, for plenty of people, a long road trip is exactly the wrong time to be driving an unfamiliar vehicle they don't own in a possibly unfamiliar place while distracted by the purpose of their trip. I wouldn't want the bad visibility of a minivan, however comfortable. And if you should happen to get in a scrape, then while there are damage waivers and insurance, they are inherently a financial product that doesn't make repairs cheaper, it just averages out the cost over all the renters who buy the coverage. And regardless of cost, increasing the risk of making your trip unpleasant because you were in an unfamiliar car is undesirable. It'd be different if you normally drive a crappy car, but then if you're broke you probably go on less vacations, and if you go on a long road trip you probably are bringing major posessions like your car with you, maybe because you're moving house. I dunno. Guess it's a life choices thing.

 

[MsSuperPartyWonderFunDay]

And yes, of course you purchase an SUV (if we're going to call unibody crossovers with absolutely no off-road pretensions like my RWD Ioniq 5 "SUVs") to take the kid(s) to school and soccer practice. That's what they're designed for, and no one but internet trolls thinks otherwise.

Honest question: if you don't need the increased space in the rear for transporting stuff and you don't need towing capability, why not buy a sedan?

 

[Erbium68]

You had me until "Fiat has basically abandoned the US market". It's a shame, I had heard good things about the 500e. But if even Fiat dealers can decide not to work on it, it's an iffy proposition whether it could quickly become an expensive lawn ornament.

Stellantis owns FIAT and Jeep. The Compass is made in both Italy and Mexico and in Italy is made by FIAT, so they may enter by the backdoor.

 

[sporkinum]

I am currently driving a 2001 Hyundai XG300 my dad gave me that when I crashed our 2014 C-Max Energi last year. The damage is mostly cosmetic and I plan on repairing it this Spring/Summer. It only has 45k miles on it, so well worth fixing. We only drive around 3000 miles a year, so we should get at least another 10 out of the C-Max. The Hyundai has 171k on it, and runs fine. Just don't like using gas.
In 10 more years, assuming the country is not a full blown dictatorship, there should be tons of cheap full electrics available.

 

[Veritas super omens]

Why does ars only do electric cars? We never see articles on the hottest sportiest ICE offerings from Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari etc al. What gives?


/s

Dr Gitlin? If you are in charge(hah!) of auto article choices keep up the good work.

 

[Readercathead]

This is the boat I was in. I had a Mach-E and loved it but my mother is in poor health and lives in rural WV. I don't make long drives weekly or anything, but at least 1-2 drives >300 miles a month. It was still worth it until the power company in WV figured out that they could charge whatever they wanted for power.

If I stayed for 3-4 days I could charge enough to get back to VA and not pay their prices, but there were no weekend trips where I wasn't paying $0.80/KWH.

I might've kept it even with that, but then I had to rent for a year post-divorce. The place I rented had chargers on site but charged $0.47/KWH.

End of the day, I traded it in for a hybrid. I average 52mpg.

I do often wonder where they do the surveys of distance traveled though. If I lived in the middle of DC, I'm sure it'd be <30 miles per trip and even in Richmond, most of my trips are less than that, but it's not that unusual to drive 50+ miles a couple times a week. I know people that commute that daily...

I bet they average in WFH people or retired people who don’t have elder care or kids to drive around. Personally, I drive from zero to four miles most days. But! We drive to another city and often into the big hospitals in Denver for elder care every week and just a few years ago I needed to drive into EV-hostile Wyoming every couple months too. I guess that averages out pretty low but I need a car that claims over 300 miles to get the range I need at highway speeds in the dead of winter. I don’t drive the average distance every day! It’s not like I can rent a car for every road trip either, I’ve tried that and it’s fiendishly expensive plus it’s irritating having to learn the idiosyncrasies of a different car.

PS Sorry you had to sell the Mach-E, I have one and really like it. But I would probably drive my old Volt PHEV into Wyoming just to avoid being even more targeted by bigoted Wyoming cops.

 

[cyclingsm]

I bet they average in WFH people or retired people who don’t have elder care or kids to drive around. Personally, I drive from zero to four miles most days. But! We drive to another city and often into the big hospitals in Denver for elder care every week and just a few years ago I needed to drive into EV-hostile Wyoming every couple months too. I guess that averages out pretty low but I need a car that claims over 300 miles to get the range I need at highway speeds in the dead of winter. I don’t drive the average distance every day! It’s not like I can rent a car for every road trip either, I’ve tried that and it’s fiendishly expensive plus it’s irritating having to learn the idiosyncrasies of a different car.

PS Sorry you had to sell the Mach-E, I have one and really like it. But I would probably drive my old Volt PHEV into Wyoming just to avoid being even more targeted by bigoted Wyoming cops.

Thanks! Yeah, I'd love to buy another one day. If I could just charge at home, now that I own again, it'd be way cheaper than even my hybrid. It's just not the reality I have currently.

 

[MICRO2112]

Nonsense.
Everyone I know who has a PHEV runs it in full-electric mode around town, plugs it in every night, and only fills the gas tank once a month for those long highway trips or for travelling outside the fast-charge network.

My personal record was about 340 days between gas fill up in my Chevy Volt. Love PHEV its the most correct answer by far.
Give me all electric driveline with ~60mi range and a small engine running as range extender.

Mazda really dropped the ball with the rotary phev nonsense they released, that stupid little MX30 was never going to sell well.

 

[enilc]

Quick nationwide search: filters: EV, 2022 or newer, $15k max, 50k mileage or less

Carmax- 8 Nissan Leaf
Carvana- 21 Nissan Leaf

Take the mode yr/mileage req off and you can get some VERY high mileage Bolts and there's a single 2018 i3 available with 70k miles

I'm curious where the author is seeing the vehicles touted in the article being available to actually purchase? This reads as being as theoretical as FTL travel.

 

[some guy in San Diego]

Honest question: if you don't need the increased space in the rear for transporting stuff and you don't need towing capability, why not buy a sedan?

Less length and more height are absolutely plusses for visibility when driving on roads where most people are driving crossovers, SUVs, and pickups because this is the suburbs in the US. Stuff for a road trip fits a lot better in the back. Soccer doesn't need a lot of stuff, but my kid's in kindergarten, he may very well get interested in things that do require transporting a lot of stuff as he gets older (sporting equipment, band/orchestra instruments, or whatever). My bicycle didn't fit in the trunk of the Camry even with the front wheel off so I needed to lie it across the back seat (which meant that my son couldn't be in the car at the same time); that definitely wouldn't be a problem in the Ioniq 5.

 

[jock2nerd]

my 2019 tesla m3 just crossed under kbb's $15k rubicon - still have 260 miles of range, inside and out like new, $0 maintenance over 110k miles. i did lose a wheel cover once, and tire wear wasn't the horror show it's been made out to be. i seriously have to question consumer reports' reliability "estimates" for evs.

The sub-text on the Consumer Reports remarks on older Teslas was that it primarily applied to Model S and X. The older Model 3 and Y have very good reliability, though I wouldn't recommend a 2017 Model 3.

Our Model 3 is a June 2018 manufacture, with 130K miles on it. It has been an extremely solid vehicle with very low maintenance costs.

 

[Gnafu the Great]

Very confusing why this is being downvoted - KWh is the standard units that would let you compare apples to apples between other EVs without worrying about what voltage the platform runs on.

It was downvoted because they called a legitimate unit "obviously bogus". Just because it's not the most common doesn't mean it's wrong. As others clarified, that was the unit BMW themselves used for the i3.

 

[Readercathead]

[some text removed] … Even so, my annual driving distances aren't usually huge, but I have no way to easily recharge it. To go to a public charger and hang around for half an hour for only an 80% charge on a 100 mile range car, in TODAY'S health care environment at MY age with my health issues, is, literally, tantamount to courting death.

In a normal reality, I'd call me out on that, but this isn't a normal reality anymore.

While I'm not afraid of dying, it's just not something I want to be doing anytime soon, especially because some other sick fuckwit decided to go out when they shouldn't have (or didn't know they were contagious as today's bugs sometimes do to people. After all not EVERYONE is a fuckwit.).

Nice to know there are EV alternatives that these short-range, low-cost and likely tiny demand market vehicles might serve. They do have a place in the cosmos. But it's very niche. And I don't see that changing. Hence why they're cheap to begin with.

After all, if there was any demand for these, their prices would be a lot higher.

You have a very important point there. Without at-home charging having an EV is inconvenient and expensive; even worse if you are elderly or female or have kids to haul around it can be unsafe to charge as well. These charging stations aren’t in well-traveled well-lit places and aren’t staffed, often they are in the back of parking lots where people are camping out. Add in reliability issues too, that’s getting better quickly but it’s not perfect still especially in areas with only a few chargers. There is a shocking difference in charging availability even in Colorado once you leave the Front Range Megacity for the small towns.

Medical care is another serious infrastructure problem in the US. Even in my medium city they frequently send us an hour away on busy, fast highways to Denver for the VA or the big hospitals, in more rural areas in America hospitals are closing and medical professionals are evacuating to safer and less bigoted locals. Pregnant women are having to drive hours just to find a doctor or a birthing hospital.

In that situation a hybrid of some kind or using the cheap, used EV as a second car for only local trips would be very sensible and save money.

 

[PhilGil]

That can still be thousands of miles per year. Add in oil changes too, and its not nothing.

Not to mention that a small EV of equivalent age and mileage will likely be less expensive than a Corolla. With lower maintenance/fuel costs.

 

[KingKrayola]

As one might expect of me, for those who read my rants, I'm once again driving to a different drumbeat.

I don't want a connected car. That's the #1 consideration for my next car, assuming I ever get one. The whole idea of a connected car just puts my teeth on edge. So were I to get a "new car", it would be at least 10 years old - before the connected car thing became standard.

And that pretty much rules out all EV's. Even so, my annual driving distances aren't usually huge, but I have no way to easily recharge it. To go to a public charger and hang around for half an hour for only an 80% charge on a 100 mile range car, in TODAY'S health care environment at MY age with my health issues, is, literally, tantamount to courting death.

I don't think that's unfair. Privacy came into my choice of a mature-but-not-bleeding edge EV, but I did opt in to tracking for traffic and charge point availability as that seemed like an equitable exchange.

This is in the UK/EU though so we now have better constraints on tracking that US citizens don't at the minute.

 

[Gnafu the Great]

Nonsense.
Everyone I know who has a PHEV runs it in full-electric mode around town, plugs it in every night, and only fills the gas tank once a month for those long highway trips or for travelling outside the fast-charge network. They're a perfectly reasonable interim solution for places and for use cases where pure BEV is not yet realistic. And they have no more inherent points of failure than conventional hybrids like the Prius, many of which are among the most reliable cars ever made. As usual, it all comes down to design & manufacturing quality.

FCEVs, also, are not BEVs. They seem to be a commercial failure. Ah well.

The studies I've seen suggest the majority of plug-in hybrid owners never or rarely plug them in, and the benefits end up being less than a traditional hybrid because now you're lugging around more battery (and more resources went into its production). Hybrids were a stopgap for 10+ years ago. I think there are a lot of people who think they need a hybrid or plug-in hybrid who would actually be served just fine by a fully electric vehicle.

My point is that (virtual) ink shouldn't be spent on articles about hybrids. I don't think Ars needs to waste time on a hybrid buyer's guide. We need as many people as possible considering fully electric vehicles going forward.

 

[evan_s]

The studies I've seen suggest the majority of plug-in hybrid owners never or rarely plug them in, and the benefits end up being less than a traditional hybrid because now you're lugging around more battery (and more resources went into its production). Hybrids were a stopgap for 10+ years ago. I think there are a lot of people who think they need a hybrid or plug-in hybrid who would actually be served just fine by a fully electric vehicle.

My point is that (virtual) ink shouldn't be spent on articles about hybrids. I don't think Ars needs to waste time on a hybrid buyer's guide. We need as many people as possible considering fully electric vehicles going forward.

Can you cite the study? There's at least one study that showed that was fundamentally flawed. It was in the UK IIRC and they were company cars that were bought as Plug-ins because of incentives and the employees driving them wouldn't get reimbursed for charging them but did for gas. So it's not surprising when the person driving the vehicle didn't pick or pay for the Plug in version and would have to pay extra to plug in and charge that lots of people don't charge. That study showed that the incentive was poorly done not that normal plug in hybrid drivers don't charge regularly.

 

[Tech-Space-Cars]

Honestly thinking about picking up an old Fiat 500e, I don't really drive around much so it seems like a good deal.

I'm on my second one, the first one was wrecked at just north of 140K miles. I've already put 60k something on its 2017 replacement. Absolutely zero anything done. For those who don't know, the motor and drive electronics are Bosch products, shared by the BMW i3. Both cars also use the Samsung batteries.

 

[Tech-Space-Cars]

Bought this 2017 500e last year. The exterior is in excellent shape with just a few dings, the interior is literally like new. First owner babied it and had all software updates and recalls done. Brand new tires and 12v battery. Main battery is extremely healthy, still 97% capacity. Quite "peppy" to drive. I've had it up to 90mph and it was still rock stable.
View attachment 129579
It was $5000. Mostly because of the 75-mile-realistic range and lack of fast charging. Plus Fiat has basically abandoned the US market--even nearby Fiat dealers won't repair it.

Same. 2017 with only 38K on the clock when I bought it, now registering close to 100K. There's only one software update of any importance, the U-something number, which allowed proper charging of the 12 volt battery. My local Fiat dealer does work on them, but I've had no reason to ever bring it in. In Los Angeles area.

 

[chalex]

Bought this 2017 500e last year. The exterior is in excellent shape with just a few dings, the interior is literally like new. First owner babied it and had all software updates and recalls done. Brand new tires and 12v battery. Main battery is extremely healthy, still 97% capacity. Quite "peppy" to drive. I've had it up to 90mph and it was still rock stable.
View attachment 129579
It was $5000. Mostly because of the 75-mile-realistic range and lack of fast charging. Plus Fiat has basically abandoned the US market--even nearby Fiat dealers won't repair it.

Doesn't this mean the first time you have any issue, there is no way to get it fixed? But I could see how for $5k it's a risk worth taking.

 

[sjl]

FCEVs, also, are not BEVs. They seem to be a commercial failure. Ah well.

That’s down to infrastructure.

You’re out driving a petrol driven car. You need to fill up. A service station is almost certainly nearby, unless you’re somewhere like the Gunbarrel Highway (which wouldn’t happen by accident.) You pull in, fill up, and keep going.

Same scenario with an EV, but with the caveat that charging stations aren’t yet as ubiquitous as petrol bowsers, so you need to plan ahead a little bit when you’re going further from home.

Fuel cell vehicles? You need a hydrogen station. In Melbourne, there are exactly two of them, and one isn’t accessible to the public.

Battery electric cars have the advantage that every household has electricity, so that’s infrastructure that doesn’t need to be built before they’re useful. Hydrogen cars need that infrastructure; the infrastructure is expensive; and there’s no demand until the vehicles are out there - a classic catch 22.

That’s before we start talking about energy efficiency.

It’s no surprise that hydrogen has flopped for general passenger vehicles. It could still be useful for long haul transportation, but outside that niche, it’s dead.

 

[evan_s]

It’s no surprise that hydrogen has flopped for general passenger vehicles. It could still be useful for long haul transportation, but outside that niche, it’s dead.

I'm not sure it makes sense even there. FCEVs loose pretty badly on the economics. If we are talking about green hydrogen generated from solar/wind/etc it just has so many more steps and thus ends up being much less efficient and therefore much more expensive from a cost per mile perspective. Currently, it also seems to be more expensive up front when compared to BEVs or ICEs so it looses all around. No business is going to want to spend more up front and more overtime if they can avoid it in any way. That's a lot of expense just to be able to refuel a clean running vehicle a bit quicker than you can charge a battery. Battery charging speeds are improving and costs are going down so for something like the Port of LA it may quickly make more sense to just have an extra truck or two and just swap them out while one charges compared to having slightly fewer FCEVs that can refuel quicker.

Also, Long Haul transport doesn't completely eliminate the need for infrastructure. You still need someplace to refuel them. It might mean fewer locations for predictable/controlled routes but that also limits the uses of those FCEV long haul trucks. You have to follow those supported routes and you have to stop at the specific locations where you can refuel.

 

[a pizza bagel?]

Honestly thinking about picking up an old Fiat 500e, I don't really drive around much so it seems like a good deal.

I have one. A 2016 I got in 2018 for $12k. Drive it to work 38 miles daily. Fun to drive, generally no issues. Minor range loss, after 10 years around 90% of original.

The only repairs I've needed are headlight bulb replacements more often than it should be, but they're cheap and easy enough to swap yourself. I would keep a box in the car though, when one goes out neither will light up.

 

[sjl]

I'm not sure it makes sense even there.

Also, Long Haul transport doesn't completely eliminate the need for infrastructure. You still need someplace to refuel them. It might mean fewer locations for predictable/controlled routes but that also limits the uses of those FCEV long haul trucks.

Agreed, on both counts. The fact that you can get away with fewer fuelling stations at specific locations on predictable routes is why I said it could still be useful; the energy required to move a fully laden road train (common in some parts of Australia) is significant, and that could preclude the use of battery electric prime movers in that specific space. But the cost to build that infrastructure, even in such a limited manner, is still significant, and as you say, the efficiency is poor.

It's certainly plausible that that infrastructure expense ends up being more than the cost to build rail and depots, and using shorter distance BEV prime movers to haul goods to and from those depots.

 

[Flipper35]

Agreed, on both counts. The fact that you can get away with fewer fuelling stations at specific locations on predictable routes is why I said it could still be useful; the energy required to move a fully laden road train (common in some parts of Australia) is significant, and that could preclude the use of battery electric prime movers in that specific space. But the cost to build that infrastructure, even in such a limited manner, is still significant, and as you say, the efficiency is poor.

It's certainly plausible that that infrastructure expense ends up being more than the cost to build rail and depots, and using shorter distance BEV prime movers to haul goods to and from those depots.

There are other options for fuel cells beyond hydrogen.

 

[badboybubby]

im in the UK, its so sad to see you guys having such limited options in this area. no wonder people arent shifting across from ICE. a few years ago, we had two major issues in the UK, limited options for all car sizes and not a great charging network.

scroll forward a few years to current day and I have my EV and am sitting here every day working out what to get next when my lease ends. the charging network here is pretty solid for the majority of place, wales could be better. but considering chargers are still being added, we have 4 separate rapid chargers in my area this year, I am confident.

the US needs the same variety of cars, and im not really even talking about chinese EVs. Heck renault and Volkswagen have some great options, the renault 5 small car being a highlight. but we now have so many options across all segments and Kia has knocked it out of the park with the 3,4,5 etc and soon this year we get the kia ev2 a small EV with about 270 miles range. literally spoilt for choice and great for the local environment, the global environment and my bank balance as i can charge from home.

politicias suck.

 

[sjl]

There are other options for fuel cells beyond hydrogen.

Sure, but they're nowhere near as well developed, and they have their own set of issues. Ultimately, the energy to create the fuel has to come from somewhere if we're going to get off fossil fuels, and the energy cost to create the fuel (over and above the energy that the fuel gives back in the fuel cell) means that they're likely to end up in niches rather than being the mainstream.

 

[Eurynom0s]

Bought this 2017 500e last year. The exterior is in excellent shape with just a few dings, the interior is literally like new. First owner babied it and had all software updates and recalls done. Brand new tires and 12v battery. Main battery is extremely healthy, still 97% capacity. Quite "peppy" to drive. I've had it up to 90mph and it was still rock stable.
View attachment 129579
It was $5000. Mostly because of the 75-mile-realistic range and lack of fast charging. Plus Fiat has basically abandoned the US market--even nearby Fiat dealers won't repair it.

I mean they're back in the US market with the new 500e. I guess the old one may be fucked for parts and maintenance because of Fiat pulling out of the US market for a few years? Unless they're already getting cold feet again after just a couple of years back.

But oh man, jealous. Loved my 2017 but couldn't justify the insane lease residual amount after three years. Saw one that was basically my exact year and color and basically the same mileage for $5k in 2020 and was kicking myself for not just grabbing it for several years afterwards. I'm not a car guy and went into my lease coming from years of being carless and not even wanting a car but Los Angeles (I made it two years), so just got the cheapest lease I could find when I caved to Los Angeles, and then was actively upset about giving it back by the end.

Now I'm happily carless in NYC again but still smile every time I see a 500. I had the baby blue color on my sole basis of did not want to spend $10 more a month for a different color but then it grew on me. (Did not have literally the exact car below but that color.)

 

[m0nckywrench]

Therefore I'd want a substantial discount so that I could self-insure against an eventual failure. For me $15k is too much to pay for a vehicle was a likely mid 4 figure repair bill staring me down, others might have a different risk and financial position.

Thanks for posting. That's interesting since it's not the good kind (from my POV) problem I can mention to score one cheap them fix it myself.

It's a buyers market so no need to accept any such risk. It appears there may not be sufficient spares so a failure could mean added downtime until the replacement part arrives. Some owners have had multiple failures. Software updates don't make up for what appear to be marginal components.


View: https://www.reddit.com/r/Ioniq5/comments/1q36wc5/ioniq_5_iccu_replacement_patrick_replaces_an_iccu/

 

[real mikeb_60]

Sure, over 90% of my trips are taking my kid to school/day camp and coming back, going to the grocery store, and other stuff around my suburb/neighboring suburbs or occasionally in the city (I'm less than 30 miles from downtown). But I take an over 30-mile trip almost every weekend (there are a few things on opposite corners of the metro area that we like to go to), a trip of over 70 miles at least monthly, and last year when we didn't have the budget or vacation time to take trips by plane we took 3.5-4.5 hour one-way trips almost every month (or why my Ioniq 5 that's less than a year old has over 10k miles on it despite me working from home). Less than 1% of my trips were over 100 miles, even round trip, sure ... but trips over 250 miles round-trip were over a quarter the miles I've driven since I got my Ioniq 5. And I'd bet a lot that 100-250 mile round trips were at least another quarter.

And yes, of course you purchase an SUV (if we're going to call unibody crossovers with absolutely no off-road pretensions like my RWD Ioniq 5 "SUVs") to take the kid(s) to school and soccer practice. That's what they're designed for, and no one but internet trolls thinks otherwise.

/having said that, having a strict 300-mile range cutoff seems a bit strict (granted, I drive an EV with almost 320 miles of nominal range). There can't be very many trips that are viable with 300 miles of nominal range that aren't with 280, or that would even need another charging stop.

I had a Bolt (old style) with an EPA combined range estimate (after the recall battery replacement) of just under 260 miles. In practice (suburban driving), my car predicted its best range (in spring or late fall with minimal HVAC use) approaching that, though it was closer to 150-180 miles in worst-case (winter with heating, freeway cruising) conditions. Still, that was adequate for nearly all of my driving with overnight discount-rate at-home charging supplemented in summer with a few hours around mid-day when the solar panels could cover 1/3-1/2 of the charging power demand (Level 2).

The only things that prevented that car from being our only car (replacing an old Prius that still gets mpg solidly in the mid 40s mpg in local driving, with excursions into the high 30s in winter or low 50s under ideal (low-mid speed traffic) conditions) were the less-than-comfortable seats and the slow (even for its time) DC charging (peak about 50kw, so in freeway cruising it was drive for 2 hr charge for 1). I did take a couple of trips with it, but at the 180-200 miles (1-way) point the charging time needs extended the overall trip time by more than an hour compared to the (more comfortable seats, too) Prius, even with a meal stop. I accepted that on a couple of trips, but the rest of the family refused to. The new Bolt appears to have fixed both of those problems by using the EUV as its base configuration (it did have better seats) and having the (formerly known as) Ultium electrical platform with a LFP battery (charging up to 150kw, which with a battery capacity and range similar to the older Bolt should yield road-trip charging times closer to 1/2 hour or less. Now if only GM would offer some reasonable incentives for them; at the moment, an Equinox EV can be had for several thousand$ less than the base Bolt with a couple of modest options.

So, really, I agree and present here why a fixed "300 miles or more range" is probably not necessary unless you are really going out in the boonies. Just look for something around 150-200 miles reliably, and decent charging capability (better than those old Bolts) if you plan on doing road trips. Yes, there are highways like 395 that would be dicey (north of Reno NV) with 200-250 miles reliable range like a Bolt (old or new) due to sparse charging availability. But those aren't common in places where EVs are likely to be sold in any quantity. If you do live in or frequently go to charging deserts, and can only afford 1 vehicle, perhaps a hybrid (plugin or otherwise) is a better idea. And used hybrids do exist, though the best of them (especially Toyotas) tend to be pricey both used and new; you probably can get a reasonably recent though out of warranty or nearly so (~10 years old, ~100K miles) Prius, for instance, for $15K or less.

 

[Erbium68]

Sure, but they're nowhere near as well developed, and they have their own set of issues. Ultimately, the energy to create the fuel has to come from somewhere if we're going to get off fossil fuels, and the energy cost to create the fuel (over and above the energy that the fuel gives back in the fuel cell) means that they're likely to end up in niches rather than being the mainstream.

We kept seeing "coming soon" methanol based fuel cells, but there are two big problems: the purity of methanol required makes it very expensive and any atmospheric exposure results in carbon dioxide absorbtion, for one, and dealing with the water and carbon dioxide produced is the other. The same problem exists with hydrogen, though there is no carbon dioxide and the water production is much smaller for a given energy output.

Hydrogen fuel cells are the only practical option if you do not want carbon dioxide emissions. Even if a lithium/fluorine fuel cell sounds pretty efficient in theory.

 

[dboytim]

Man I’d love a 15k car, let alone an ev. But I do 114 miles round trip daily, and in frigid temps to boot so none of these are even options for me at this point.

I had a 75 mile round trip commute for a decade. I bought a used 2017 Bolt in 2021 for that. In winter (Ohio), I only charged every other day, so yes, that car would have handled your 114 mile easily. In the summer, I charged less often. And I was NOT babying it. This was mostly highway driving (and here that means 75-80 mph) with heat or AC on.
And of course, I never had to stop at a gas station. I just came home, plugged in, and had a full tank when I got up in the morning. Super convenient. In my Focus before the Bolt, I was having to get gas about every 5-6 days, which was quite annoying.

 

[Flipper35]

Sure, but they're nowhere near as well developed, and they have their own set of issues. Ultimately, the energy to create the fuel has to come from somewhere if we're going to get off fossil fuels, and the energy cost to create the fuel (over and above the energy that the fuel gives back in the fuel cell) means that they're likely to end up in niches rather than being the mainstream.

Oh, I agree. I also don't believe there are enough rare elements used in a FCV to be able to supply enough vehicles to replace ICE. At least the last study I read mentioned the materials shortage.