The reincarnation of totaled Teslas—in Ukraine

Cars deemed unfixable in North America are resurrected in Eastern Europe.

See full article...

 

[cheshirecheese]

Well done Ukraine!
If EVs are unrepairable (economically) and if battery replacement costs the same as an small conventional car, EVs are going to have a much shorter service life than IC cars.
We have always run diesels to 20 years / 200,000 miles. They can always easily and economically be kept running using new or used parts.
How do the eco-credentials of EVs stack up if they are valueless at 7 or 10 years?

 

[aiwarrior]

As somebody leaving in Eastern Europe it is not all roses. Not knowing the extent of the damage does not lead only to a dead battery like the article mentions. It often leads to death traps where a minor accident maims unaware people because the chassis was fragile and the airbags did not deploy. That is the case I know personally for a ICE car. For an EV add a chemical fire death trap.
It also means that locally buying a used car is a huge gamble and requires specialised companies making incredible audits to the car and part numbers to make sure the car never had a serious accident.
These costs are not low and you pay even if you end up not buying.
People disregard insurance company’s cautiousness but that is talking with a full belly. People like in the article jump these hoops because they or their societies’ cannot do as good as the American. The next time you have a minor accident and come off with just a scratch thank the bureaucrats and boring insurance companies that protected you with working airbags.

 

[cheshirecheese]

One of the biggest issues facing repairing some Tesla models is the gigacast frame. With a traditionally-built car, if there is some frame damage, you remove (or cut out) the damaged pieces and bolt in (or weld in) the replacement bits. I am curious as to how these Ukrainian super-mechanics (no sarcasm) repair the gigacast frame?

I guess they weld it - there's a video of a repair on YouTube -
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09AyyT8N4FY

Whether it is perfectly aligned or has the same crash signature is a more difficult question.
There's no such thing as a 'safe' car! But there are many vehicles less safe than even a badly repaired Tesla. Any motorbike for a start - just we're prepared to take risks, knowingly or not.

 

[A_Very_Tired_Geek]

And parts. Your local mechanic can source ICE parts from a number of vendors, including wrecking yards. If your Rivian goes south and needs a part, good luck getting Rivian to sell it to you. They might but then might need access to the vehicles computer to get it integrated.

This will eventually get solved but dropping your EV off at your local mechanic is probably a decade away.

This is true, but only to a point.

From someone that's worked in the auto body repair on the administrative side, there's a lot to be told and most people don't understand the issues in the US (this doesn't apply elsewhere).

First, if you own a brand new car and you wreck it, or have a warranty issue, you're almost assuredly going to be unable to get replacement parts for the first year of a production run. Period. There will be no excess parts for repairs from the OEM, no aftermarket parts makers will have anything yet, and no wrecker yards will have sufficient stock to cover that market gap. Basically, you're screwed. And universe help you if you get a recall on a integral part such as the power module, etc.

Second, YOU aren't paying for the repairs. Your insurance company is. You're literally stuck with whatever kind of repairs they'll authorized, and only the very rich can afford to pay for proper repairs these days. So if your vehicle looks like crap after it was repaired: 1) no vehicle is ever the same after a wreck. Never. 2) blame your insurance company for requiring substandard aftermarket parts on brand new vehicles that destroy the resale value. 3) Your state insurance commission is almost always complicit in the underhanded, shady, and often times illegal dealings insurance companies try to pull with auto repair shops.

Third, the manufacturers are purposely inflating the price of parts so vehicles are totaling out quicker because it's cheaper for the insurance company, but it also sells them more new cars because when a vehicle totals, they make another sale far more often than if not (used vehicle sales not withstanding).

Fourth, when you total a vehicle or abandon it after being towed either the insurance company receives the hulk, which they auction off, or the auto repair shop confiscates it as an abandoned vehicle (after a time period of accumulated storage fees). Both sell the body on to cover whatever they can of the lost capital. Those sold vehicles sometimes end up, not in the scrap heap or wrecking yard, but in other countries where the safety rules may be looser than in the US, or parts are cheaper to acquire. Half my vehicles over the years have been total rebuilds. If you're savvy you can pay out less than half the cost of the same vehicle new, and that's what these people are doing. They really aren't any less safe than the brand new vehicle. But, manufactures don't like that (it's potentially a lost sale), so they're trying to do as much end-run around right-to-repair laws as possible. One of the new issues is the BS surrounding always-connected vehicles locking down things like the infocenter. Right-to-repair is going to eventually have to basically place DMCA as its "Most Wanted" because until that bad law is repealed, no one is going to own anything ever again. Manufacturers will see to it everything has a computer even if it doesn't need it just to stop people from repairing things they own (drm'd coffee makers anyone? printer ink? add your next car to that list. It's already being done.)

 

[deviltry]

That's not really EV news or news at all. People importing wrecked cars and fixing them up in Eastern Europe is as old as russia (meaning that once USSR collapsed and borders opened - people started doing it). Hell, I had Lexus IS350 for a few years which was US written off import (it had an impact to rear doors and rear suspension had to be changed, it was very minor damage and to this day I have no idea why it was sold as wreck) here in Lithuania. Low mileage and ran like a clock Toyota and was cheap too.

Fog light and amber turn signal market is booming in Eastern Europe, heh.

 

[killerhurtalot]

The ones that can't be resurrected provide a LOT of donor lithium cells to harvest from the battery pack that go into FPV drones

That's pretty much only Teslas at this point. Most other EVs use large pouch cells, and not cylindrical cells.

As a FPV drone flyer (mostly 7" drones for cinematic mountain cruising on large lipo/lithium ion batteries), most of those batteries pouches wouldn't fit on the 7" drones, let alone smaller 5" they're using... larger cells like 4680 don't work because in order to power the motors, the cells are wired in series, adding the voltage together, and there's no space for multiple large cells...

Older tesla's 18650/21700 batteries are the same size as normal ones we use (usually 2-8 strapped on in 2000-8000mah configurations), but the new teslas make scavenging the batteries hard as hell because of their absolutely shit design of filling the entire battery compartment up with that pink goop.

 

[killerhurtalot]

This explains why the first war photo I saw of a destroyed car in Ukraine was that of a Nissan Leaf.

I would imagine models with V2H are most prized since last winter.

You don't need to have dedicated V2H functions since pretty much any EV can be used that way.

Plenty of resources online too how to wire a 1000w 12v-120v inverter to your car and have the main DC battery pack sustain it. (All EVs got a battery pack voltage DC-12v inverter to keep the 12V battery charged up)

 

[Matthew J.]

I'm a little surprised that automatic disconnection from the Tesla account and/or a factory reset of the internal storage isn't standard procedure after a write-off or trade-in.

 

[YetAnotherPoster]

What's new? "Totaled" rich world cars have been repaired and used for years more in lower labor cost countries since there were cars...

The new thing is that up until now North American gas guzzlers were excluded from this international chop/fix-up market precisely because they guzzled too much gas. From TFA:

Roman Tyschenko, a 25-year-old IT worker who lives in Kyiv, decided last September that he was sick of his Jeep’s $400-a-month gas bill.

Elsewhere in the world high taxes on gas simply don't let you run gas cars which are so inefficient, except for perhaps the Gulf states.

So the news isn't that a lot of North American EVs are being fixed up and sold abroad, rather it's that a lot of North American gas cars weren't sold and fixed up abroad.

 

[redtomato]

I think there is a huge market for a line of EVs that are designed from the ground up to be simple, modular, and easy to repair.

No super-complex structures. A battery that just consists of a stack of LFP prismatics in a temperature-controlled box. No Internet connection. Simple gauges and switches. A motor controller whose diagnostic interface is entirely built-in and can be accessed from any computer through a USB or Ethernet port. An infotainment system that is just a standalone self-contained DIN unit. Outer body panels that are bolted on to the unitized structure, and are individually replaceable. Choice of FWD or AWD and the ability to convert from one to the other just by adding the rear motor & CV axle module from a parts rack or a scrapped car. Suspension and running gear that is straight out of the NAPA, Monroe, etc. catalogs and is widely available.

Maybe offer a few body variants with near 100% commonality of functional parts and front sheet metal: a C-segment sedan, a C-segment crossover, pickups and chassis-cab trucks in short-cab / 8' bed and double-cab / 5' bed form factors, and a minivan, all with <2000 kg curb weight and ~500 kg payload capacity.

It wouldn't attract the richest 10% of Americans, for whom the fancy bells and whistles apparently help to justify high purchase prices. But think of what such a car would mean to the rest of the world.

I completely agree with you, I would love to have a car like that, and I will be needing a new car in the near future so this is an area I'm taking notice of.

Sadly, your concept of a simpler, more modular and easier to repair EV will never happen It will cost the manufacturer about the same as a normal car to make (any savings are extremely minor) but will be far less profitable, especially over the lifespan of the car.

Capitalism works through value-add. A mass market car, especially a mom-wagon SUV, is value-added and financially engineered to the gills. I don't mean value-add for you, I mean value-add for the manufacturer. All that shiny plastic and swooping metal differentiates the car and adds marketing value, and makes moms compete with each other for the biggest, 'safest', most shiny-looking SUV. Ditto the giant pavement-princess pickups for the dads.

They're the ones buying new cars, they're spending 50k-100k on new cars, not you. And they're the ones the car companies chase, not you.

Maybe you personally are happy to spend 40k-90k on an easy-to-repair car that has less plastic and less swoopy bits of metal. Great. How many of you are there? Dozens! Dozens!

Compare that to the thousands if not millions of more well-off streets in the US and the EU which are becoming a parade of hulking new(ish) SUVs from end to end. That's where we are now. I don't like it much either but that's where we are.

At least electric cars are becoming more popular in this sector and have a bit of cachet in the parent school car park, which is a small mercy.

 

[sd70mac]

As an owner of a first-gen Chevy Volt, several years ago I found out that they were incredibly popular in Ukraine, especially around Odesa, if I recall correctly.

On the other hand, the throwaway approach the manufacturers and insurance takes is rather disappointing, especially considering that being better for the environment is one of main points of EVs. I don’t know what the solution to this is, since (at least in the US), it is cheaper to manufacture something new than to repair it, and arguments for less automation in manufacturing or cheaper labor prices for repair are both terrible.

Facilitating more complex repairs being done in Mexico or even Guatemala is an option.

 

[close]

It's not only about the ingenuity or willingness of the mechanic to touch such a car and fix it. Many times the fix simply cannot be done in a way that makes sense financially. So in the end the cars look good to fetch a good price but aren't road worthy. The "flexible" legal framework in some countries allows this gray market.

Eastern Europe is full of cars with various degrees of damage, from fender benders down to the mangled chassis, that are made to look like new (this is probably where smarter cars can detect and warn of stuff like this, with the downside that they also block legitimate aftermarket repairs), and then sold for attractive prices to people who can't realistically check the quality of the repair and assess the risk.

just we're prepared to take risks, knowingly or not.

If you're not even aware of the risk you can't be prepared for it. People would accept the risk for minor non-functional issues, not that it's a death trap in case of accident, and sometimes even in normal operation.

 

[sd70mac]

I completely agree with you, I would love to have a car like that, and I will be needing a new car in the near future so this is an area I'm taking notice of.

Sadly, your concept of a simpler, more modular and easier to repair EV will never happen It will cost the manufacturer about the same as a normal car to make (any savings are extremely minor) but will be far less profitable, especially over the lifespan of the car.

Capitalism works through value-add. A mass market car, especially a mom-wagon SUV, is value-added and financially engineered to the gills. I don't mean value-add for you, I mean value-add for the manufacturer. All that shiny plastic and swooping metal differentiates the car and adds marketing value, and makes moms compete with each other for the biggest, 'safest', most shiny-looking SUV. Ditto the giant pavement-princess pickups for the dads.

They're the ones buying new cars, they're spending 50k-100k on new cars, not you. And they're the ones the car companies chase, not you.

Maybe you personally are happy to spend 40k-90k on an easy-to-repair car that has less plastic and less swoopy bits of metal. Great. How many of you are there? Dozens! Dozens!

Compare that to the thousands if not millions of more well-off streets in the US and the EU which are becoming a parade of hulking new(ish) SUVs from end to end. That's where we are now. I don't like it much either but that's where we are.

At least electric cars are becoming more popular in this sector and have a bit of cachet in the parent school car park, which is a small mercy.

Never is a long time. While EV conversions of the once-ubiquitous Ford Crown Victoria will probably become common first, at some point a modular EV will happen, although if autonomous full-self-driving happens first it might not be sold directly to most of the general public and rather be a ride sharing vehicle.

 

[ColdWetDog]

This is true, but only to a point.

From someone that's worked in the auto body repair on the administrative side, there's a lot to be told and most people don't understand the issues in the US (this doesn't apply elsewhere).

First, if you own a brand new car and you wreck it, or have a warranty issue, you're almost assuredly going to be unable to get replacement parts for the first year of a production run. Period. There will be no excess parts for repairs from the OEM, no aftermarket parts makers will have anything yet, and no wrecker yards will have sufficient stock to cover that market gap. Basically, you're screwed. And universe help you if you get a recall on a integral part such as the power module, etc.

Second, YOU aren't paying for the repairs. Your insurance company is. You're literally stuck with whatever kind of repairs they'll authorized, and only the very rich can afford to pay for proper repairs these days. So if your vehicle looks like crap after it was repaired: 1) no vehicle is ever the same after a wreck. Never. 2) blame your insurance company for requiring substandard aftermarket parts on brand new vehicles that destroy the resale value. 3) Your state insurance commission is almost always complicit in the underhanded, shady, and often times illegal dealings insurance companies try to pull with auto repair shops.

Third, the manufacturers are purposely inflating the price of parts so vehicles are totaling out quicker because it's cheaper for the insurance company, but it also sells them more new cars because when a vehicle totals, they make another sale far more often than if not (used vehicle sales not withstanding).

Fourth, when you total a vehicle or abandon it after being towed either the insurance company receives the hulk, which they auction off, or the auto repair shop confiscates it as an abandoned vehicle (after a time period of accumulated storage fees). Both sell the body on to cover whatever they can of the lost capital. Those sold vehicles sometimes end up, not in the scrap heap or wrecking yard, but in other countries where the safety rules may be looser than in the US, or parts are cheaper to acquire. Half my vehicles over the years have been total rebuilds. If you're savvy you can pay out less than half the cost of the same vehicle new, and that's what these people are doing. They really aren't any less safe than the brand new vehicle. But, manufactures don't like that (it's potentially a lost sale), so they're trying to do as much end-run around right-to-repair laws as possible. One of the new issues is the BS surrounding always-connected vehicles locking down things like the infocenter. Right-to-repair is going to eventually have to basically place DMCA as its "Most Wanted" because until that bad law is repealed, no one is going to own anything ever again. Manufacturers will see to it everything has a computer even if it doesn't need it just to stop people from repairing things they own (drm'd coffee makers anyone? printer ink? add your next car to that list. It's already being done.)

I bet you're fun at parties....

And most likely correct. I was just thinking of more routine repairs rather than post accident recovery.

Just one more reason not to buy a brand new car.

 

[Batmanuel]

Yep. Politico went into a bit more detail into how Ukraine is kitbashing their own drones to get around shortages and supply issues:
https://www.politico.eu/article/future-warfare-400-army-strike-drone-unit-2m-tank/
The downside is that Russia is doing the same thing, even with sanctions in place:

And this is how we wind up with Screamers.

 

[Tom the Melaniephile]

That's pretty much only Teslas at this point. Most other EVs use large pouch cells, and not cylindrical cells.

Yep. Rivian and Lucid are a very small fraction of the market.

That said, several larger manufacturers such as BMW are developing new models using cylindrical cells. For BMW, they should show up in 2025

Hopefully it will be all too late for this war because Ukraine will have regained their 1991 borders with Russia repatriating the millions of Ukranians they have kidnapped.

 

[krhodes1]

Which means that it won't cost much. Which means that manufacturers won't make much money on them. Which means that manufacturers have no incentive to produce them despite the 'market' (we'll make it up in volume).

Note that every time a car manufacturer tries to create a simple, inexpensive vehicle, it flops after a year or two (US market, others may well vary). Most car buyers will go for a used up market car rather than a new econobox.

But hey - the possibilities are there. Third party EV chassis are a thing. Get some funding and start it up. It would be a good thing. IMHO just not a marketable one.

Even the Tata Nano, a car designed to be as cheap as possible for the Indian market, flopped. For the same reason - it wasn't better than a much nicer used car.

THE main reason that cheap, small cars lasted a long time in the US was that automakers literally had to sell them at a big loss for CAFE reasons so they could sell big profitable cars without penalties. Once CAFE went to "footprint" based, that went away. And so have most of the cheap small cars.

 

[TheOldChevy]

If we look at the evolution of computers, or phones, I am not sure that repairability of cars is expected to improve in the near future

 

[A_Very_Tired_Geek]

I bet you're fun at parties....

And most likely correct. I was just thinking of more routine repairs rather than post accident recovery.

Just one more reason not to buy a brand new car.

Routine repairs are going to end up going the same way. It's already happening too. "Warranty repair coverage" is just insurance with a new face, and going to end up ruining mechanic services as thoroughly as the insurance racket is screwing over independent auto body repair business. If they can figure out how to DRM oil changes, you better believe vehicle manufacturers are going to try it. The lawsuits will just come under "cost of doing business" while the average car maker owner (oops, corrected) will be out the money of the suit.

 

[Photon_plumber]

Many modern vehicle components are locked. Some even by VIN code. Most repairs would be easy, except for locked components and unavailable parts.

Not an issue. Maybe six years back we hired a Ukrainian (surprised?) hardware/software specialists to crack the service and maintenance coding on a laser product used in a semiconductor manufacturing tool, by ones of the planet’s leading laser manufacturers. Any product out there can be broken in the same manner by people with these backgrounds.

 

[Metasurreal]

Sadly, your concept of a simpler, more modular and easier to repair EV will never happen It will cost the manufacturer about the same as a normal car to make (any savings are extremely minor) but will be far less profitable, especially over the lifespan of the car.

I might have agreed with you, but after receiving my Framework laptop I now believe that manufacturers absolutely can make modular products that are beautiful and economical to build. Framework has made me strangely optimistic about the future of (physical) tech, as long as we can connect the demand to the supply.

 

[Eurynom0s]

In a sense this is exactly how the market is 'supposed' to work. The costs for various aspects of the vehicle (manufacturing, use, recycling / wrecking) is just arbitraged over the entire planet instead of just staying in, for example, the US. While it would be a more just and perfect world to keep the EV's environmental impacts within one country, the differences in wages, costs and regulations make looking for outside answers more successful.

We just need to send them a few wrecked Cybertrucks for the cause. I imagine that will happen in fairly short order, assuming Tesla actually bothers to ship them.

Ukraine is one of the few places on Earth Cybertrucks being able to take a few bullets would actually be a useful important feature.

 

[numerobis]

This is also something made worse by the direct sales model of Tesla (not sure about Rivian).

I definitely understand the dislike for Dealerships but Parts and Service Departments are a major money maker for them so they either have or can get parts and as long as they can make a profit are generally happy for anyone to buy from them including local shops who are often on the route of the parts van

I’ve had an independent shop buy a Tesla part for me — though the shop had to send someone to pick it up. I’ve also had them refuse to even answer the phone for an independent shop.

It’s purely a policy decision. A dumb one, I think, because it gives worse service to their customers.

 

[real mikeb_60]

I'm a little surprised that automatic disconnection from the Tesla account and/or a factory reset of the internal storage isn't standard procedure after a write-off or trade-in.

If a factory reset is not part of dealer prep before sale of a used car (it's not; my recent used car purchases have all still had the original owners' radio presets, phone contacts, wifi networks, and even OnStar data balances intact), I'd expect it to be even less likely for a wreck.

 

[dacushman]

I might have agreed with you, but after receiving my Framework laptop I now believe that manufacturers absolutely can make modular products that are beautiful and economical to build. Framework has made me strangely optimistic about the future of (physical) tech, as long as we can connect the demand to the supply.

Hey thanks! I'm kinda looking for a laptop sometime in the next year or so and Framework sounds ideal. I definitely like the ability to pick and choose ports keyboard languages etc. And easily replaceable batteries are something I haven't seen in a while.

One question is about how long they have been around. I didn't see it on their website Upgradeability is great but it wasn't terribly clear if you can only use their components so that makes a difference.

 

[real mikeb_60]

I'm glad the story put at least part of the blame on the insurers. The OEMs are complicit, too, refusing to sanction any battery repairs but refusing to supply replacement batteries at any price let alone the published one. Presumably, the Ukrainians are getting parts through non-OEM channels. And I'm surprised not to see Bolts and Volts on that chart; they're known to be popular, and with a good battery lift (the battery weighs just short of 1000 lb.) it's not difficult to service the HV battery (see Dr. Kelly's videos).

 

[alansh42]

In the case of a wreck it might not power on far enough to get to the reset screen.

I'm a little surprised the data connection for a US sold Tesla roamed successfully on an Ukraine cell system.

I have a Kia EV6 and people have reported the US models lose online features in Canada even though Kia sells the EV6 in Canada.

 

[dacushman]

I’ve had an independent shop buy a Tesla part for me — though the shop had to send someone to pick it up. I’ve also had them refuse to even answer the phone for an independent shop.

It’s purely a policy decision. A dumb one, I think, because it gives worse service to their customers.

Very dumb and short sighted. Local shops and dealerships often are able to refer business to each even while talking trash.
We all (myself included) enjoy disliking dealerships, their prices, the constant up selling, etc etc. However the flip side is that mostly they want people to have a good customer experience so you'll continue to give them your money.

Not a Tesla customer but that doesn't seem to be their ethos.

 

[A_Very_Tired_Geek]

Not an issue. Maybe six years back we hired a Ukrainian (surprised?) hardware/software specialists to crack the service and maintenance coding on a laser product used in a semiconductor manufacturing tool, by ones of the planet’s leading laser manufacturers. Any product out there can be broken in the same manner by people with these backgrounds.

Yes, it probably can given enough resources. But can the average body shop, mechanic shop, etc afford to fight off the inevitable DMCA/copyright lawsuit? No. It's against the law for repair businesses (in the US) to band together to collectively bargain with the insurance companies and OEMs. So the multibillion transnationals are in control over the entire market because it's actually illegal for repair businesses to fight them. So people are repeatedly getting screwed over and probably will remain so.

 

[Batmanuel]

If we look at the evolution of computers, or phones, I am not sure that repairability of cars is expected to improve in the near future

I think a lot of manufacturers are coming around to repair ability because they are realizing how much having everything glued together affects warranty repair service costs. Both Apple and Microsoft have tried to make their newer phones and tablets more repairable than they were a few years ago. Just being able to swap the hard drive in Surface with current models is a big win compared to the Surface Pro 7 that I have.

 

[TakeABabyLeaveABaby]

people keep buying them so they obviously don't care much about it.

No, people don't know about it. This is a failure of education

 

[TakeABabyLeaveABaby]

I wonder how much of the reason North American repair shops won't touch these cars is the dearth of technicians, and how much is liability aversion.

There are plenty of techs working in other jobs because being a tech doesn’t pay anything. Often it's below minimum wage once you account for buying your tools.

 

[TakeABabyLeaveABaby]

Most car buyers will go for a used up market car rather than a new econobox.

Manufacturers seem to be intentionally making "econoboxes" unattractive. Toyota is bucking the trend by making the Prius more and more normal every year at least

 

[dacushman]

There are plenty of techs working in other jobs because being a tech doesn’t pay anything. Often it's below minimum wage once you account for buying your tools.

That's true (especially about the tools). However it is a career where the absolute best can make money. Our best technician made over $250,000 in a year just turning wrenches. He even agreed to take a massive pay cut to be promoted to foreman.

It's just a tough job that not everyone can or wants to do and I don't recall anyone making much over minimum for the first five years or so.

The tools thing is a real struggle but frankly that's a problem across many trade and goes all the way back to a time when folks had to make their own tools.

 

[dacushman]

Manufacturers seem to be intentionally making "econoboxes" unattractive. Toyota is bucking the trend by making the Prius more and more normal every year at least

I think this is a place where government regulations can and would make a difference. Market pressure may get there given the price of vehicles and interest rates but I don't think it will be enough.

Smaller more efficient less expensive and polluting vehicles would be a net benefit to society so I think it would be appropriate no matter how politically unlikely

 

[TakeABabyLeaveABaby]

I was with you until this objectively false claim:

They really aren't any less safe than the brand new vehicle.

No. Frame damage is not repairable, in the US or Ukraine or anywhere. Damage to the frame can permanently ruin the vehicle's crash performance.

 

[TakeABabyLeaveABaby]

Ukraine is one of the few places on Earth Cybertrucks being able to take a few bullets would actually be a useful important feature.

A valuable featire in Ukraine, and the US

 

[TakeABabyLeaveABaby]

That's true (especially about the tools). However it is a career where the absolute best can make money. Our best technician made over $250,000 in a year just turning wrenches. He even agreed to take a massive pay cut to be promoted to foreman.

It's just a tough job that not everyone can or wants to do and I don't recall anyone making much over minimum for the first five years or so.

The tools thing is a real struggle but frankly that's a problem across many trade and goes all the way back to a time when folks had to make their own tools.

My boss right now was a master tech and he got out of wrenching because of the office politics. If you piss off the head guy, he can retaliate by only giving you oil changes all day while the lucrative jobs are going to the guys who kissed his ass better. That's obviously not unique to wrenching, but in other fields it may not affect your paycheck so drastically

 

[dacushman]

My boss right now was a master tech and he got out of wrenching because of the office politics. If you piss off the head guy, he can retaliate by only giving you oil changes all day while the lucrative jobs are going to the guys who kissed his ass better. That's obviously not unique to wrenching, but in other fields it may not affect your paycheck so drastically

As the HR Director I have heard and experienced this.

Some was perceived and some was real and even the fairest dispatcher can have biases and make mistakes. I'm not a personal fan of flat rate for those reasons and more.


There are some other factors that can add nuance though. I recall a young lady who was being switched from an hourly tech to flat rate work under a new training/promotion system. She was bravely the first tech to volunteer to take the plunge and the service manager and the tech I mentioned did make sure that she initially got work that she could be successful with and book plenty of hours. Not totally gravy stuff like the guy at the port doing inspections all day but I am sure others could have validly felt like there was favoritism.