Paypal freezes $45,000 of Mailpile’s crowdfunded dollars

Demands "itemized budget" from Iceland-based team before releasing funds

Read the whole story

 

[y*!|$7v0Qn]

Paypal needs to stop playing moral police and deciding who I can and can't give my money to.

 

[Jaesin]

Exactly how does paypal get off on dictating business practices of companies that decide to use it for generating funds?

 

[harold31415]

Paypal being Paypal..

I will continue to refuse to have anything to do with them - not that that will have any effect, of course.

 

[y*!|$7v0Qn]

steelcobra[/url]":1rgg4fto]Reason #576895 to never use Paypal to hold your money.

And he can't legally or medically become "Chelsea" until he finishes his prison sentence, so I don't see why you are playing that part of it up.

She certainly can, getting surgery and hormonal treatment while in prison is certainly legal, as is filing to change her name legally.

 

[nsap]

At some point, people are going to have to realize that using Paypal is just not a good idea. How many times has this happened and yet nobody seems to be learning to stay away from them?

 

[Maestro4k]

CQLanik[/url]":1ip3cmni]Paypal needs to stop playing moral police and deciding who I can and can't give my money to.

That's not going to happen, the past few years have seen them increasing their morality policing behavior. Just in July they blocked iPredator's VPN service and froze their account. They've cut off file locker sites in the past (back to 2012) as well, including well known ones like MediaFire (so not just the ones that are more iffy in their behavior),

But Visa & Mastercard are also doing some of the same stuff.

 

[Hurda]

Three words every internet-user should adhere to in 2013: Stop using PayPal.

 

[y*!|$7v0Qn]

steelcobra[/url]":182bxwbw]

CQLanik[/url]":182bxwbw]

steelcobra[/url]":182bxwbw]Reason #576895 to never use Paypal to hold your money.

And he can't legally or medically become "Chelsea" until he finishes his prison sentence, so I don't see why you are playing that part of it up.

She certainly can, getting surgery and hormonal treatment while in prison is certainly legal, as is filing to change her name legally.

In civilian prison, certainly, but he's going to a military prison, which means he still falls under military rules and as such cannot do that.

Citation needed. The only question is whether or not the government will have to pay for it, I think they should as it's a medical treatment recommended by her doctor, but she has said she will pay for it herself. It is not illegal to get medical treatment while in military prison.

 

[Uxorious]

That is the best graphic ever for an article on frozen funds (in my opinion); coins in ice cubes - outstanding!

 

[glap1922]

nsap[/url]":2y5c2z1p]At some point, people are going to have to realize that using Paypal is just not a good idea. How many times has this happened and yet nobody seems to be learning to stay away from them?

Until there is a widespread and well-known alternative people will continue to use it. Right now no such alternative exists, so the options are paypal or nothing.

 

[kylector]

What's a good PayPal replacement if I want to remain protected on the occasional eBay transaction (buy or sell) ?

 

[RolandKSP]

So does paypal return the money that they freeze eventually or do they just keep it? Bank or not, I would assume stealing 45k would amount to grand theft somewhere.

 

[AlcoJaguar]

steelcobra[/url]":2mu9slyw]

CQLanik[/url]":2mu9slyw]

steelcobra[/url]":2mu9slyw]Reason #576895 to never use Paypal to hold your money.

And he can't legally or medically become "Chelsea" until he finishes his prison sentence, so I don't see why you are playing that part of it up.

She certainly can, getting surgery and hormonal treatment while in prison is certainly legal, as is filing to change her name legally.

In civilian prison, certainly, but he's going to a military prison, which means he still falls under military rules and as such cannot do that.

It is a sign of respect more than a legally binding gender reassignment. The USA has a long and storied history of treating difference as sub-human.

 

[y*!|$7v0Qn]

kylector[/url]":1ihiy13y]What's a good PayPal replacement if I want to remain protected on the occasional eBay transaction (buy or sell) ?

I've been using Amazon payments, I don't feel a whole lot better about it, but at least it's not paypal.

 

[Deleted member 14629]

glap1922[/url]":35dzy773]

nsap[/url]":35dzy773]At some point, people are going to have to realize that using Paypal is just not a good idea. How many times has this happened and yet nobody seems to be learning to stay away from them?

Until there is a widespread and well-known alternative people will continue to use it. Right now no such alternative exists, so the options are paypal or nothing.

Amazon Payments. Anyone that has an Amazon account (which is a very large group of people) can use it.

 

[steelcobra]

CQLanik[/url]":3e1civpq]

steelcobra[/url]":3e1civpq]

CQLanik[/url]":3e1civpq]

steelcobra[/url]":3e1civpq]Reason #576895 to never use Paypal to hold your money.

And he can't legally or medically become "Chelsea" until he finishes his prison sentence, so I don't see why you are playing that part of it up.

She certainly can, getting surgery and hormonal treatment while in prison is certainly legal, as is filing to change her name legally.

In civilian prison, certainly, but he's going to a military prison, which means he still falls under military rules and as such cannot do that.

Citation needed. The only question is whether or not the government will have to pay for it, I think they should as it's a medical treatment recommended by her doctor, but she has said she will pay for it herself. It is not illegal to get medical treatment while in military prison.

It is not a medical treatment the military system provides, period. There are very few elective surgeries you can get in the military, and those are generally beneficial to the service, such as vision correctiive surgery. Gender reassignment is a long process requiring special handling in a prison, which the command there will be unwilling to perform special exceptions for.

 

[AlcoJaguar]

RolandKSP[/url]":hzppmoj4]So does paypal return the money that they freeze eventually or do they just keep it? Bank or not, I would assume stealing 45k would amount to grand theft somewhere.

I was wondering that myself. If all the backers demanded their payments back to funnel through a different service, could they actually refuse?

 

[glap1922]

Happysin[/url]":1nnq8y8n]

glap1922[/url]":1nnq8y8n]

nsap[/url]":1nnq8y8n]At some point, people are going to have to realize that using Paypal is just not a good idea. How many times has this happened and yet nobody seems to be learning to stay away from them?

Until there is a widespread and well-known alternative people will continue to use it. Right now no such alternative exists, so the options are paypal or nothing.

Amazon Payments. Anyone that has an Amazon account (which is a very large group of people) can use it.

I know it exists. I know how to use it.
The problem is it isn't well-known and widespread enough to be a replacement. Try explaining to an ebay buyer or seller about sending money through amazon payments.

 

[hesingswithfrogs]

Betray us, Paypal, and I will fong you, until your insides are out, your outsides are in, your entrails will become your extrails I will w-rip... all the p... ugh. Pain, lots of pain.

 

[y*!|$7v0Qn]

AlcoJaguar[/url]":1hc13ag3]

RolandKSP[/url]":1hc13ag3]So does paypal return the money that they freeze eventually or do they just keep it? Bank or not, I would assume stealing 45k would amount to grand theft somewhere.

I was wondering that myself. If all the backers demanded their payments back to funnel through a different service, could they actually refuse?

They'd probably tell you to ask Mailpile for a refund in the best form of circular logic.

 

[kinsei]

"Afterwards I will be deleting my PayPal account and never looking back."

I did this about a year ago and haven't looked back. It's really not that hard!

 

[y*!|$7v0Qn]

RolandKSP[/url]":27eq5ecv]So does paypal return the money that they freeze eventually or do they just keep it? Bank or not, I would assume stealing 45k would amount to grand theft somewhere.

In previous cases they've just kept the money. They claim that it's okay because they say so.

 

[ajmas]

What alternatives are there to PayPal for a entity such as Mailpile and what are their track records like?

The freezing of the money until the work is done sounds crazy, since the money was there in order to do the work. PayPal has its reasons, but the way it seems to be going about them and the lack of potential for dialogue are absurd. I assume the moral of the story is don't deal with companies you can't communicate with?

As to keeping the money, that does sound like grand theft or anti-trust. If the receiving entity fails to claim, then surely that money should be reverted to the people who contributed the money otherwise why bother playing moral police - the people who contributed are losing either way.

 

[Genetix]

It is this type of event that is driving me away from using paypal for my own personal and business needs. Very shameful on their part, this can kill a business alone.

 

[keltor]

CQLanik[/url]":95v6dtn8]

RolandKSP[/url]":95v6dtn8]So does paypal return the money that they freeze eventually or do they just keep it? Bank or not, I would assume stealing 45k would amount to grand theft somewhere.

In previous cases they've just kept the money. They claim that it's okay because they say so.

They don't keep the money as in put it into a general coffer, it goes into holding, permanently. They then follow the rules of whatever jurisdiction they decide the money must belong to. Finance laws are all pretty well laid out.

 

[y*!|$7v0Qn]

Jackattak[/url]":8jp8xfy6]The article states they have no options, yet it also details two options they have: show a verifiable 1.0 release or an itemized budget.

They might not be options that Mailpile likes, but they are options.

Not saying I agree with PayPal in any way, just stating facts.

But why does PayPal get to decide that the people who gave them money clearly are wrong and it's their responsibility to steal the money they need to create their product until such time as they create the product. They didn't ask PayPal for a loan, they have nothing to do with the business except as a payment processor

 

[WaveRunner]

metalliqaz[/url]":gtwl317d]You have to be pretty tech-savvy to be able to put together a service like Mailpile has proposed. It's hard to believe that anyone that tech-savvy wouldn't know about Paypal.

after wiki, msdn, my favorite juxtaposition is "problems"

 

[Deleted member 14629]

glap1922[/url]":85tgkmsq]

Happysin[/url]":85tgkmsq]

glap1922[/url]":85tgkmsq]

nsap[/url]":85tgkmsq]At some point, people are going to have to realize that using Paypal is just not a good idea. How many times has this happened and yet nobody seems to be learning to stay away from them?

Until there is a widespread and well-known alternative people will continue to use it. Right now no such alternative exists, so the options are paypal or nothing.

Amazon Payments. Anyone that has an Amazon account (which is a very large group of people) can use it.

I know it exists. I know how to use it.
The problem is it isn't well-known and widespread enough to be a replacement. Try explaining to an ebay buyer or seller about sending money through amazon payments.

Kind-of a Catch-22, though. Until people start using it and telling others about it, people won't use it. It does have the built-in advantage that it has a huge installed-base already.

 

[Maestro4k]

Jackattak[/url]":2depbjq6]The article states they have no options, yet it also details two options they have: show a verifiable 1.0 release or an itemized budget.

They might not be options that Mailpile likes, but they are options.

Not saying I agree with PayPal in any way, just stating facts.

So all they have to do is get to a 1.0 release without the money they raised to pay for doing exactly that? That's not an option, that's a catch-22.

 

[ColinABQ]

...Paypal would be keeping the funds frozen for a full year or until they have a verifiable 1.0 release of their product.

That seems quite circular:
Customer: "But, we need to these funds to complete product development!"
PayPal: "Nope. No money until we see released product."

Has PayPal ever been sued in a U.S. court for such action? I can't believe that PayPal's legal department would approve such action based merely on "suspicion of fraudulent activity."

With that said, Mailpile really should have at least scope-of-work estimates. Otherwise, how did they even establish a fundraising goal? But demanding a detailed, itemized budget at this point in their process seems unreasonable.

One might easily form the notion that PayPal simply does not want this product to be developed.

 

[YourOldBuddy]

I think the budget reads something like: 3 guys for 6 months or so for a Beta release.

 

[jxmzsr]

CQLanik[/url]":wim66khz]

steelcobra[/url]":wim66khz]Reason #576895 to never use Paypal to hold your money.

And he can't legally or medically become "Chelsea" until he finishes his prison sentence, so I don't see why you are playing that part of it up.

She certainly can, getting surgery and hormonal treatment while in prison is certainly legal, as is filing to change her name legally.

True and not true.

As a prisoner that is still in the military (yes he is) Manning can get surgery and hormonal treatment while in prison at his own expense for the surgery and initial course of hormonal treatment (if the Army gives its permission for him to do that), after that any continuing care cost would be provided by the government.

As a prisoner that is still in the military Manning can apply for a name change, but can't legally change his name while serving the sentence as a military prisoner unless the Army allows it to be done.

Manning is still in the Army, the official policy of the U.S. Army is “The Army does not provide hormone therapy or sex-reassignment surgery for gender identity disorder”

If Manning wants it he is going to either pay for it himself, or take the government to court to force the government (and thus the tax payers) to pay for it.

His legal gender is still male and his legal name is still Bradley Manning no matter how much he wants, or others recognize, it to be Chelsea Manning or be female at this time.

I know this will not be a popular post probably, so down vote away. Not trying to be insensitive, just recognizing the realities that Manning is a little different case as he is in the Army (his discharge from the trial does not actually take effect until the time is actually served, its how the military maintains jurisdiction, upon the time being served his discharge takes effect immediately) and not like a regular prisoner in the regular federal system, so a broad and unqualified it being legal needs to be looked at in context with the specific case. So the only 'formally known as' thing about Manning in regards to gender and name is that Manning wishes to be called Chelsea and wants to live as a woman, but legally right now he isn't 'formally known as' any other person or gender other than Bradley and male.

 

[RolandKSP]

According to this: http://www.mailpile.is/blog/2013-09-05_ ... ate_3.html

They have enough to keep going, which is good. Also, they say that PayPal's reasons included a fear of chargebacks so they ask people to not request refunds.

 

[Aggiekev]

Maestro4k[/url]":3hz6wddi]

Jackattak[/url]":3hz6wddi]The article states they have no options, yet it also details two options they have: show a verifiable 1.0 release or an itemized budget.

They might not be options that Mailpile likes, but they are options.

Not saying I agree with PayPal in any way, just stating facts.

So all they have to do is get to a 1.0 release without the money they raised to pay for doing exactly that? That's not an option, that's a catch-22.

Not really. 1.0 release just means labeling a release as 1.0. It doesn't mean the release is bug free, or you are done working on it. It just means you've labeled the release as 1.0. It's magical number theory in reality.

If I was them, I'd feature freeze. Do an assessment of all features based on bugginess and whether it's required. Then possibly cut a few features from 1.0. Do a hard push to do the minimum necessary fixes for the features kept. Label it as 1.0 and release it. While at same time releasing a realistic list of features to be aimed for in 2.0.

Then say look, we've released a 1.0 to our supporters, release the money. And if they ever get the money from paypal, yank it out of paypal and put it in some other bank.