Google is tired of losing so badly to iMessage, so it wants Apple to adopt RCS.
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New Google site begs Apple for mercy in messaging war
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I can't stand apple and have always used Android. I prefer Android for many reasons. However that does not mean I am going to support Google in everything it does. It's handling of Messaging apps and many other apps for that matter has been terrible. I mean look at google Wallet. It was the first NFC payment option available (Way ahead of Apple Pay) but initially they only made it available in the US (they had "coming soon" on their UK website for about 3 years!) Then Apple released in many parts of the world and still Google kept Wallet US only. Then they changed the name and removed features, then they changed the name again, then they planned to just make it the Indian version, then eventually changed the name back to Google Wallet (I think, as I have lost track of all the changes....). All the time Apple pay has stayed with the same name and has just consistently Added features. Hence most people refer to NFC payments as Apple pay even if they are not actually apple pay as it is the most well known. Google has some great ideas and makes some great software but far too many times it looks like it is running around like a headless chicken...
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I can't offer you a blanket solution because I don't know what carrier you use, or even if you're in the US, but you could consider a) getting an eSIM that lives in your iPhone that's used for just iMessage or b) getting a second SIM for your other phone. These options do come with their own compromises, including having to share a second number, but some upsides as well.
T-Mobile prepaid is ~$17.50 for a 3GB plan, for instance. Verizon prepaid starts at ~$43 and drops in price as time goes by, but doesn't support eSIM and is kinda nasty with deprioritization. If you're already a happy Verizon or AT&T customer, adding a line of prepaid T-Mobile is a great way to increase your chances of having coverage, especially with that low-frequency 600MHz Band 71/n71.
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Same...when the iPhone 15 hits with USB C I'm there. Tired of the fragmentation on Android.
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Err...the iOS Youtube app was always provided by Google. The early versions of YouTube and Google Maps that were bundled were part of a partnership with Google, and Google actually copied/converted all the backend videos to a format the iPhone could decode in hardware to do it.
When the big falling out happened over maps and the deal expired, Apple did their own maps, and Youtube was just dropped as a bundled app, you were expected to use Safari. Google then submitted their Youtube app to the store as anyone else would.
Edit: I misremembered, and so was wrong. Apple did the UI/app, while Google provided the API for them (and built the backend to support what the iPhone could do in hardware)
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No, from what I've read, the original iPhone Youtube app was built by Apple, using Youtube APIs Google opened up for them.
Interestingly, this article is critical of the original Apple app:
https://mashable.com/article/iphone-youtube-app-story
When that deal was done, Apple removed their version, and Google built their own app to put in the store:
https://mashable.com/archive/youtube-not-in-ios6
Also:
https://mashable.com/archive/youtube-iphone
https://mashable.com/archive/rip-youtub ... -be-missed
This archive of a tweet thread by a former Google/Youtube developer goes more into it:
https://hunterwalk.com/2017/06/30/how-y ... et-thread/
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Chemical Tribe
Ars Legatus Legionis
Between you both, let's split the difference. *Apple* made the app, but obviously Google changed they entire back end to support it. The key to that was the fact that the YouTube app in ios used a generic logo, not the official one.
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Where the hell is the FCC in all of this? Frankly, SMS/MMS/RCS are the evolution of a *telephone system standard*.
FCC should be showing leadership in requiring the industry to update the standard, and should also be mandating that ALL telephone services and new devices (Obviously 5+ year old phones won't get updates to the latest standard) be compatible with the latest standard (RCS in this case, though that is obviously quite old and needs further modernization).
No, I'm not advocating the FCC regulate other over-the-top services that ride on the Internet connection. I'm not saying apps like iMessage or Google Messages can't implement additional features and there own protocols that go over-the-top for communication with other users not using the standard.
But every phone user should be able to communicate with every other phone user, using the latest version of the standard phone protocols, and those standards should be updated from time to time.
FCC should be showing leadership in requiring the industry to update the standard, and should also be mandating that ALL telephone services and new devices (Obviously 5+ year old phones won't get updates to the latest standard) be compatible with the latest standard (RCS in this case, though that is obviously quite old and needs further modernization).
No, I'm not advocating the FCC regulate other over-the-top services that ride on the Internet connection. I'm not saying apps like iMessage or Google Messages can't implement additional features and there own protocols that go over-the-top for communication with other users not using the standard.
But every phone user should be able to communicate with every other phone user, using the latest version of the standard phone protocols, and those standards should be updated from time to time.
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So....what does Settings -> Messages -> iMessage do then? Oh wait, it enables/disables iMessage.
You can even choose to enable it and not use it for the mobile number.
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Google should build a front end to Signal that sends via SMS when:
1. No internet
2. No Signal for receiving user
Anyone who wants to receive such messages that doesn't have Android can install Signal. Anyone who has Signal will receive via Signal. Anyone who doesn't will get old crappy SMS like they do today (or RCS when possible).
They can also complain to SMS/RCS users they don't have a secure receipt method via message footer.
I suggested this years ago pointing out that RCS is only a minor upgrade and never would gain traction as nobody cares to update the lowest common denominator. Those who care are already using Telegram, Signal, whatsapp, and the rest won't even notice if you upgrade them to RCS.
In the meantime I switched to iPhone.
Are you listening Google?
1. No internet
2. No Signal for receiving user
Anyone who wants to receive such messages that doesn't have Android can install Signal. Anyone who has Signal will receive via Signal. Anyone who doesn't will get old crappy SMS like they do today (or RCS when possible).
They can also complain to SMS/RCS users they don't have a secure receipt method via message footer.
I suggested this years ago pointing out that RCS is only a minor upgrade and never would gain traction as nobody cares to update the lowest common denominator. Those who care are already using Telegram, Signal, whatsapp, and the rest won't even notice if you upgrade them to RCS.
In the meantime I switched to iPhone.
Are you listening Google?
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Because it's been renamed to Meet. The other Meet was renamed to Meet Original and is eventually going away (I think) and so is Duo, being replaced by the new Meet. Very Googleish of Google.
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Signal, while a great messenger is not open/federated (open as in open ecosystem) and there's no incentive for Google to do that.
Signal for Android already has built-in SMS support, you can have Signal set as your SMS app if you want in Android, no reason for Google to be involved at all.
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They can install it by default on Google branded devices and encourage other vendors to do the same.
What it would do is make messaging suck less on Android by default. Seems pretty important to me! Who cares if it's not Google's? They can own RCS, a joke and a failed exercise, or Android, a Google product, can suck less.
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Chemical Tribe
Ars Legatus Legionis
From Google's perspective signal doesn't offer any benefit to them over their own messages.
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It's about following the MMS spec. The 3GPP format is part of that (and in MMS 1.3, that's H263, so it doesn't compress as well either), so 600k H263 format is what you get. Even the supported JPEG structure is carefully circumscribed.
Edit: Actually MMS 1.2 is 300k, so a carrier can say "nope, not doing that" too. Carriers can also announce they support bigger files (I vaguely recall Verizon advertising up to 3.5Mbyte?) but then you're trusted to luck that it will pass between carriers - you'll end up with MMS failing if you just use your direct carriers maximum and the phone generates files too big. Apple sticks to 600k and MMS always meet the base standard for MMS 1.3.
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There's absolutely no incentive for Google to do that though. Signal doesn't bring in any revenue, and it's a closed ecosystem. It's already great that Signal gets a mention on Google's "Get the Message" campaign. Other than that, there's absolutely no incentive for Google to preinstall Signal.
If Google wanted to push interoperability, they had the chance when they had Google Talk which was built on top of XMPP, an open federated protocol but they abandoned it in favour of their own closed Google Hangouts and have been building closed messenger systems and only hitching themselves to RCS when they clearly failed and desperate to be in the messenger game with any necessary means.
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Current iPhone but former Android user here.
I agree that Google has made many, many missteps in the messaging space and they could have done things differently to be in a better position today. Hangouts was available on every platform, desktop and mobile, and I successfully had my family and friends all using it. But they killed it and that was a terrible mistake.
But that doesn't mean that Apple doesn't have some culpability here too. In the U.S. it's very annoying to hear iPhone users complain about Android users ruining the chat, when in reality Apple is purposely holding back that experience and Android users have no control over it. Android-to-Android chats are better than Android-to-iPhone chats too. It doesn't have to be that way. Apple could add RCS support to upgrade the non-iMessage chat experience to include typing indicators, delivery receipts, reactions, etc. Of course, they choose not to because it's in Apple's best interest to make that experience terrible and it will be a cold day in hell before they decide to make life easier for Android users.
Even if Google had a solid messaging solution, it wouldn't integrate with iMessage anyway. So is everyone saying that Apple should just drop cross-platform support (SMS/MMS fallback) in iMessage? Other than blaming Google for the position they've put themselves in - which I 100% agree with - I guess I don't understand what people actually want to happen to improve the situation.
I agree that Google has made many, many missteps in the messaging space and they could have done things differently to be in a better position today. Hangouts was available on every platform, desktop and mobile, and I successfully had my family and friends all using it. But they killed it and that was a terrible mistake.
But that doesn't mean that Apple doesn't have some culpability here too. In the U.S. it's very annoying to hear iPhone users complain about Android users ruining the chat, when in reality Apple is purposely holding back that experience and Android users have no control over it. Android-to-Android chats are better than Android-to-iPhone chats too. It doesn't have to be that way. Apple could add RCS support to upgrade the non-iMessage chat experience to include typing indicators, delivery receipts, reactions, etc. Of course, they choose not to because it's in Apple's best interest to make that experience terrible and it will be a cold day in hell before they decide to make life easier for Android users.
Even if Google had a solid messaging solution, it wouldn't integrate with iMessage anyway. So is everyone saying that Apple should just drop cross-platform support (SMS/MMS fallback) in iMessage? Other than blaming Google for the position they've put themselves in - which I 100% agree with - I guess I don't understand what people actually want to happen to improve the situation.
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Chemical Tribe
Ars Legatus Legionis
The spec allows for h264 video. Besides that fact, my reference shows apple using h264, not h263.
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Longtime Android user. Text bubble colors could matter less to me.
I'm an Android user far less because I like Android and far more because I disagree with vendor lock-in and the walled garden, and Apple is a prime---if far from the only---example of this. (Dispensing with the 3.5mm headphone jack years ago didn't help.) I don't buy Apple hardware because that's about the only meager way that I, one of the capitalist plebes, can express my disapproval of that lock-in. I made one exception to this and bought an iPad (I had a previous, hand-me-down iPad) to preserve a group iMessage conversation with people who 1) are very important to me, and 2) will never switch away from iMessage.
I couldn't care less whether they use iMessage or not, but what is frustrating to me is that the conversation itself is locked behind the garden walls. I can't interact with it via any other client, even if that client is capable of E2E encryption.
Yes, Messages for Android and Google's complete lack of long-term strategy with respect to messaging is frustrating, but in the end all I really want are two things: 1) stable multi-device support, and 2) all my conversations available from any client that's capable of encryption.
The problem here is, and has always been, the drive toward rent-seeking, even if that comes with some benefits for users willing to pay said rent.
I'm an Android user far less because I like Android and far more because I disagree with vendor lock-in and the walled garden, and Apple is a prime---if far from the only---example of this. (Dispensing with the 3.5mm headphone jack years ago didn't help.) I don't buy Apple hardware because that's about the only meager way that I, one of the capitalist plebes, can express my disapproval of that lock-in. I made one exception to this and bought an iPad (I had a previous, hand-me-down iPad) to preserve a group iMessage conversation with people who 1) are very important to me, and 2) will never switch away from iMessage.
I couldn't care less whether they use iMessage or not, but what is frustrating to me is that the conversation itself is locked behind the garden walls. I can't interact with it via any other client, even if that client is capable of E2E encryption.
Yes, Messages for Android and Google's complete lack of long-term strategy with respect to messaging is frustrating, but in the end all I really want are two things: 1) stable multi-device support, and 2) all my conversations available from any client that's capable of encryption.
The problem here is, and has always been, the drive toward rent-seeking, even if that comes with some benefits for users willing to pay said rent.
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Chemical Tribe
Ars Legatus Legionis
And again, they ditched xmpp when no one else federated with them except spammers.
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No, the old (cathode ray TV icon) YouTube app provided with iOS 1 through 5 was internally developed by Apple after they got an API license from YouTube. YouTube had been a Google subsidiary for about three months when the original iPhone was first unveiled in January of 2007.
Which means that negotiations to use YouTube‘s APIs started before they were acquired by Google.
It was removed in iOS 6 after the original license agreement expired because Google had no interest to renew it in 2012 mostly because of „disagreements“ between Google and Apple over a variety of things among them Apple encroaching on Google‘s turf with the imminent release of Maps, Apple‘s stance on privacy and data protection and the fact that the Apple built App didn’t show Ads.
The Hunter Walk blog post goes into some of it
https://hunterwalk.com/2017/06/30/how-y ... hread/amp/
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@ronamadeo is once again spot on in his reporting. Unfortunately, many in the media now who don't have a clue to what RCS is or it's capabilities are piling on like lemmings blaming Apple for Google's issues. If they took the time to just read Ron's article, and understand the history and facts they would instead be calling out Google.... but as always, most of these so-called reporters just write click-bait and nothing substantive.
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I don't think most Americans understand that WhatsApp is the de-facto messaging service for much of the world.
For example-- I was in Ireland over the summer and on the radio the DJs would do their usual "send us your requests, or tell us the funniest thing you did over the weekend" bits, but instead of giving a phone number or email to send it to they gave out the station's WhatsApp address/number. WhatsApp is the standard text messaging service for a lot of places.
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This isn't a phenomenon unique to Google. This was Microsoft back in the 90's. Also, look at Apple Music. It's available on Android. Why? Because they needed to have that interoperability to gain their market share. Once Apple Music is big enough, they could deprecate their Android version and use it as another incentive to get Android users over to the Apple ecosystem and keep them there.
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This is such a childish act from Google. And the rationale, "it makes poor kids feel bullied", is just wrong too. Most of them spend $50 on an Android phone so they can purchase a new pair of $300 AirNikes or some other flavor of the month. There's really no reason for Apple to change something that works for their customers.
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I never thought that I would see Apple taking a page from Microsoft's playbook.
From Apple's side, Android not working correctly is Android's fault, and it's all going to plan.
So solves the mystery of what would happen if the shoe is on the other foot.
From Apple's side, Android not working correctly is Android's fault, and it's all going to plan.
So solves the mystery of what would happen if the shoe is on the other foot.
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More recent MMS updates add it as optional, and pretty sure iOS would have no trouble receiving them.
For terminals supporting media type video, ITU-T Recommendation H.263 [11] profile 0 level 10 shall be supported. This is the mandatory video codec for the MMS.
There's "should" in later versions of TS26140
-H.263 Profile 3 Level 45 [10][11];
-MPEG-4 Visual Simple Profile Level 0b [12];
-H.264 (AVC) Baseline Profile Level 1b [52][53] with constraint_set1_flag=1;
(The H.264 was added much later....remember, MMS is from 2002)
So.... you're back to H263 for "shall" if you want to make sure a video is received OK.
Like the file size, it's back to "take a punt on devices and carriers supporting H264 and bigger files, and MMS just sometimes break" or "make sure they always get through, and take the hit on quality"
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Now you're just being parochial. There's parts of the world where Facebook Messenger is used commonly, and parts where Line is. As has been pointed out, there is literally only one thing that's used the world over, and that's SMS/MMS. Every carrier in every country is still doing a boom trade in SMS (not from mobile terminals always, but from charging businesses for access)
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Chemical Tribe
Ars Legatus Legionis
Sure, that's a good point, but phones not capable of doing h264 died like....15 years ago.
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Apple could release a version of iMessage for Android and then iMessage would be the standard.
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Chemical Tribe
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Apple music was already on android from beats before they bought it out. Probably was too entrenched and actually making money.
Even so, they don't give all the features that ios users enjoy like spatial audio.
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Carriers. Carriers are slow to upgrade. And they absolutely do terrible things like intercept and transcode videos (hell, they do it over Internet connections where they can). So again, meet the "shall" parts of the spec, or take the risk that you'll break something. At some point, Apple will revisit it, but it's not urgent for them - their users use iMessage and don't have any such issues.
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The point still stands. You point out that Google is acting out of their own self interest, but Apple is too. Heck, very few companies do anything altruistically.
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and Google had to shut it down in India due to all of the bleeping spam they profitted from. I agree with Apple, there is nothing of benefit or lost by not supporting this crap
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Chemical Tribe
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If they were a problem then those messages wouldn't be sent in the first place. Sorry, apple has no excuse here. Even if what your say would be an issue, that still doesn't explain why every video they transcode is letterboxed regardless, and at 10fps.
Also, carriers do not transcode videos on the internet. They cap the speed and the provider changes the video sent instead.
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Agreed with several others. At one point hangouts was truly great... When it was messaging, video, sms and Google voice client. Then they started ripping it apart. If they would have just let it be great...
No, out wasn't always the simplest of applications. But it was really nice to have it all in one place. At work, we'd keep a hangout open all day because it was nice than slack for our use. Then they ruined it at tried to isolate with from personal tools and tear it apart... Can't keep SMS, let's break voice... Kill personal users... Break business users...
Google deserves what they got... A broken, splintered system. They've injected so many ads I've been moving away from their search and considering a switch to iPhone... And I was a total Android user from the very first device on T-Mobile and even worked on their support staffs elearning modules. I developed an app on first gen nfc..
Google is an ad company, not an engineering company at this point and it shows.
No, out wasn't always the simplest of applications. But it was really nice to have it all in one place. At work, we'd keep a hangout open all day because it was nice than slack for our use. Then they ruined it at tried to isolate with from personal tools and tear it apart... Can't keep SMS, let's break voice... Kill personal users... Break business users...
Google deserves what they got... A broken, splintered system. They've injected so many ads I've been moving away from their search and considering a switch to iPhone... And I was a total Android user from the very first device on T-Mobile and even worked on their support staffs elearning modules. I developed an app on first gen nfc..
Google is an ad company, not an engineering company at this point and it shows.
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Am I missing something? I have a family text group that crosses iOS and Android. I can access it from my phone, my mac, my laptop, and they can all access me and everyone else in the group. Sure, some members show in blue text and some in green, but I have never seen messages go awry. Text, video, images, links.... all seem to go through just fine.
Help me understand the secret sauce I appear to be missing.
Help me understand the secret sauce I appear to be missing.
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OrangeCream
Ars Legatus Legionis
I think you've got a mistaken impression here.
1) Apple could, as you suggest, adopt RCS; if sending a message to an Android phone using RCS, use the same green bubble, and if the Android phone doesn't have RCS it falls back to SMS. That would be an improvement and doesn't address the problem that Google is screwing up messaging.
2) "Understanding" messaging isn't the user's job. That's Apple's job, and that's Google's mistake in screwing up. Switching to RCS won't make the Android phone equal to iMessage, it will still be a crappy experience because Google never fixed messaging.
3) A 'dose of their own medicine' would mean Apple keeps screwing up, creating a product, killing a product, and trying again. And that' happened! Remember iTools, .Mac, MobileMe, and now iCloud? The difference is that after 4 iterations Apple stopped screwing up. How many iterations will it take for Google to get with the program?
4) What you're suggesting Google do is illegal. It's anticompetitive and it uses Google's monopolistic power to coerce competitors and harm consumers. It's drastically different than what Apple is doing; they support SMS just fine, and iMessage sends SMS messages to devices that don't support iMessage. Apple could do better in supporting RCS, but refusing to adopt RCS isn't anticompetitive nor illegal.
5) Apple isn't making Android look bad. Google is making Android look bad. Apple has an App Store too. You can download and use Facebook, Signal, WhatsApp, Hangouts, Meet, Allo, Chat, and Voice on the iPhone and use all of them to send messages to other users. The problem is that Google owns Hangouts, Meet, Allo, Chat, and Voice, and they don't use the same back end, so you can't send messages back and forth to other users of different Google apps.
People try to track usage statistics for business purposes:
https://www.messengerpeople.com/global- ... stics/#USA
Facebook, in the US, followed by FaceTime, with iMessage a distant 6th place. If we only consider messaging and not video, it's Facebook, Snapchat, WhatsApp, then iMessage. Google is the one that screwed up since Hangouts is behind Skype, when they could have been iterating Hangouts for the last decade since being split off Google+ and they're going to discontinue Hangouts!
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