Navy giving its helicopter drones a Linux upgrade

$15.8M contract will move Fire Scout control systems off Solaris.

Read the whole story

 

[jandrese]

In theory it should be possible to port a Solaris app to Linux assuming nobody lost the source code. You'll have to go through the system fixing compiler quirks and whatnot, but that's probably only going to improve the code. Add in a little bit of driver writing for any of the custom hardware and you're done. Probably only cost the government half a billion dollars and take a decade.

This should be a lot less painful than trying to port some old Win16 or VMS application to Linux.

 

[boostu]

jandrese[/url]":1wvid5b5]In theory it should be possible to port a Solaris app to Linux assuming nobody lost the source code. You'll have to go through the system fixing compiler quirks and whatnot, but that's probably only going to improve the code. Add in a little bit of driver writing for any of the custom hardware and you're done. Probably only cost the government half a billion dollars and take a decade.

This should be a lot less painful than trying to port some old Win16 or VMS application to Linux.

I highly doubt they were running Solaris 8 x86, that architecture didn't get much attention from Sun until Solaris 10. Porting from Solaris SPARC to Linux x86 is going to be quite the undertaking and having worked with Raytheon in the past, it's going to be a giant CF. Good on the Navy for moving to port the code to Linux though. My group is still running SGI servers that are closing in on 20 years old.

 

[zladuric]

jandrese[/url]":szabiusy]Add in a little bit of driver writing for any of the custom hardware and you're done.

For military drones? Yep, custom hardware has a new meaning here.

 

[Tundro Walker]

do the drivers for the drone get rolled back into the kernal stack?

I can see it now ... "dammit, there's drivers in here for a remote attack drone, but I can't get this wifi card to work!"

 

[zladuric]

My group is still running SGI servers that are closing in on 20 years old.

Curious, what do you run on those?

 

[boostu]

zladuric[/url]":1rkpbr7r]

My group is still running SGI servers that are closing in on 20 years old.

Curious, what do you run on those?

No idea, we just keep them running.

 

[Deleted member 192806]

Only a paltry $15.8 million. Quick, check the sofa in the officers lounge.

 

[Disasterpiece_Theater]

Soooo ..... Does this mean penguins are no longer flightless birds?

 

[Boskone]

I don't know what amuses me more: that the virtual cockpit setup looks like a flight-sim gamer's "battlestation", or that the architecture video looks like Legos.

 

[jandrese]

boostu[/url]"83n5my8]

jandrese[/url]"83n5my8]In theory it should be possible to port a Solaris app to Linux assuming nobody lost the source code. You'll have to go through the system fixing compiler quirks and whatnot, but that's probably only going to improve the code. Add in a little bit of driver writing for any of the custom hardware and you're done. Probably only cost the government half a billion dollars and take a decade.

This should be a lot less painful than trying to port some old Win16 or VMS application to Linux.

I highly doubt they were running Solaris 8 x86, that architecture didn't get much attention from Sun until Solaris 10. Porting from Solaris SPARC to Linux x86 is going to be quite the undertaking and having worked with Raytheon in the past, it's going to be a giant CF. Good on the Navy for moving to port the code to Linux though. My group is still running SGI servers that are closing in on 20 years old.

Depending on the language used that shouldn't matter much. I assume they didn't write the whole thing in SPARC assembly.

The custom drivers are probably less than you would expect too. A flight stick driver and whatever the output is (probably a serial link to a RF transmitter). I'd guess the UI was built in Motif, which has been ported to Linux.

This does assume a sane development model and that the source has not been lost. Both may be overly optimistic. The build system will almost certainly have to be reworked as well.

 

[ai33806]

There's a good bit of irony seeing Linux used for US military systems, considering the politics of many FLOSS developers. The Fire Scout carries targeting systems, and the MQ-8C is plenty big enough to carry weapons.

 

[beebee]

Regarding linux at the DoD, two articles come to mind.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gW1jgRVL2t4
This is a link to an old TWIT FLOSS weekly episode on Linux at the DoD.

This is a linux disty for thumb drive use. It even supports common access cards.
http://www.spi.dod.mil/lipose.htm
A civilian version is provided.

The article didn't mention what disty the Navy will be using, but I'm going to assume one of the commercial LTS versions.

 

[andy321]

linux... a kick ass OS.

 

[kebabbert]

boostu[/url]":1ugu5rlw]

jandrese[/url]":1ugu5rlw]In theory it should be possible to port a Solaris app to Linux assuming nobody lost the source code. You'll have to go through the system fixing compiler quirks and whatnot, but that's probably only going to improve the code. Add in a little bit of driver writing for any of the custom hardware and you're done. Probably only cost the government half a billion dollars and take a decade.

This should be a lot less painful than trying to port some old Win16 or VMS application to Linux.

I highly doubt they were running Solaris 8 x86, that architecture didn't get much attention from Sun until Solaris 10. Porting from Solaris SPARC to Linux x86 is going to be quite the undertaking and having worked with Raytheon in the past, it's going to be a giant CF. Good on the Navy for moving to port the code to Linux though. My group is still running SGI servers that are closing in on 20 years old.

They are not using Linux for the critical avionics parts, they are using a RTOS. These systems are hard real time, not soft real time. That rules out Linux (Real time Linux does not cut it for serious applications). Solaris 8 (very old now) was used in the non critical avionics parts, as Linux is today. Solaris 8 support was end-of-line recently so they had to upgrade to later Solaris versions or Linux. Apparently they chose Linux over FreeBSD or Solaris.

 

[groghunter]

This is fairly significant, in that the DoD, and especially the Navy, loves them some Solaris. I'd have expected them to stick with it.

 

[beebee]

kebabbert[/url]":5sbixjw8]

boostu[/url]":5sbixjw8]

jandrese[/url]":5sbixjw8]In theory it should be possible to port a Solaris app to Linux assuming nobody lost the source code. You'll have to go through the system fixing compiler quirks and whatnot, but that's probably only going to improve the code. Add in a little bit of driver writing for any of the custom hardware and you're done. Probably only cost the government half a billion dollars and take a decade.

This should be a lot less painful than trying to port some old Win16 or VMS application to Linux.

I highly doubt they were running Solaris 8 x86, that architecture didn't get much attention from Sun until Solaris 10. Porting from Solaris SPARC to Linux x86 is going to be quite the undertaking and having worked with Raytheon in the past, it's going to be a giant CF. Good on the Navy for moving to port the code to Linux though. My group is still running SGI servers that are closing in on 20 years old.

They are not using Linux for the critical avionics parts, they are using a RTOS. These systems are hard real time, not soft real time. That rules out Linux (Real time Linux does not cut it for serious applications). Solaris 8 (very old now) was used in the non critical avionics parts, as Linux is today. Solaris 8 support was end-of-line recently so they had to upgrade to later Solaris versions or Linux. Apparently they chose Linux over FreeBSD or Solaris.

QNX for controls? Not exactly linux though.

 

[vmjersey]

StillNotATroll[/url]":11mye5as]Sad they are using Linux over FreeBSD

BSD sucks hard!!! The week I spent in BSD made me appreciate even Ubuntu with it's clunky Unity Desktop.

Reasons why any distro of Linux is better:
1. Linux is much faster.
2. Comunity is way bigger...Like way way way bigger.
3. So much of the newer software won't compile on BSD.
4. Linux repositories kick BSD's ass...like it's not even close.


So...Booo ya.

 

[Petruchio]

beebee[/url]":2qjhegey]

kebabbert[/url]":2qjhegey]

boostu[/url]":2qjhegey]

jandrese[/url]":2qjhegey]In theory it should be possible to port a Solaris app to Linux assuming nobody lost the source code. You'll have to go through the system fixing compiler quirks and whatnot, but that's probably only going to improve the code. Add in a little bit of driver writing for any of the custom hardware and you're done. Probably only cost the government half a billion dollars and take a decade.

This should be a lot less painful than trying to port some old Win16 or VMS application to Linux.

I highly doubt they were running Solaris 8 x86, that architecture didn't get much attention from Sun until Solaris 10. Porting from Solaris SPARC to Linux x86 is going to be quite the undertaking and having worked with Raytheon in the past, it's going to be a giant CF. Good on the Navy for moving to port the code to Linux though. My group is still running SGI servers that are closing in on 20 years old.

They are not using Linux for the critical avionics parts, they are using a RTOS. These systems are hard real time, not soft real time. That rules out Linux (Real time Linux does not cut it for serious applications). Solaris 8 (very old now) was used in the non critical avionics parts, as Linux is today. Solaris 8 support was end-of-line recently so they had to upgrade to later Solaris versions or Linux. Apparently they chose Linux over FreeBSD or Solaris.

QNX for controls? Not exactly linux though.

In the DoD systems I've worked on, VxWorks is what I see used most often for the RTOS.

 

[Liquid Snake X]

Disasterpiece_Theater[/url]":dgxswaao]Soooo ..... Does this mean penguins are no longer flightless birds?

Well played sir, although these new drones didn't push it out of the nest, SpaceX has been using Linux since the start as far as I know.

 

[beebee]

Petruchio[/url]":k083w6xj]

beebee[/url]":k083w6xj]

kebabbert[/url]":k083w6xj]

boostu[/url]":k083w6xj]

jandrese[/url]":k083w6xj]In theory it should be possible to port a Solaris app to Linux assuming nobody lost the source code. You'll have to go through the system fixing compiler quirks and whatnot, but that's probably only going to improve the code. Add in a little bit of driver writing for any of the custom hardware and you're done. Probably only cost the government half a billion dollars and take a decade.

This should be a lot less painful than trying to port some old Win16 or VMS application to Linux.

I highly doubt they were running Solaris 8 x86, that architecture didn't get much attention from Sun until Solaris 10. Porting from Solaris SPARC to Linux x86 is going to be quite the undertaking and having worked with Raytheon in the past, it's going to be a giant CF. Good on the Navy for moving to port the code to Linux though. My group is still running SGI servers that are closing in on 20 years old.

They are not using Linux for the critical avionics parts, they are using a RTOS. These systems are hard real time, not soft real time. That rules out Linux (Real time Linux does not cut it for serious applications). Solaris 8 (very old now) was used in the non critical avionics parts, as Linux is today. Solaris 8 support was end-of-line recently so they had to upgrade to later Solaris versions or Linux. Apparently they chose Linux over FreeBSD or Solaris.

QNX for controls? Not exactly linux though.

In the DoD systems I've worked on, VxWorks is what I see used most often for the RTOS.

Thanks. The user list in the wiki is interesting.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VxWorks

I've done some hacking on Arm for an embedded application. When you can't expect the user to boot the system should things go south, the programming and OS gets a lot more interesting. I have hours invested in reading systemd documentation, or lack thereof.

 

[RisingStone]

Maybe rename it the "Linus Torvalds" put a big middle finger on the side.

 

[scuttle22]

vmjersey[/url]":1cm0zat8]

StillNotATroll[/url]":1cm0zat8]Sad they are using Linux over FreeBSD

BSD sucks hard!!! The week I spent in BSD made me appreciate even Ubuntu with it's clunky Unity Desktop.

Reasons why any distro of Linux is better:
1. Linux is much faster.
2. Comunity is way bigger...Like way way way bigger.
3. So much of the newer software won't compile on BSD.
4. Linux repositories kick BSD's ass...like it's not even close.


So...Booo ya.

Let's assume that the Navy hasn't listed the ability to install Bastion as one of the requirements for their drone OS.

 

[harteman]

I like that guys chair...

 

[dddddddd207]

What kind of joysticks is he using? Does the military just use gaming stuff?

 

[kranchammer]

Petruchio[/url]":31r5r46v]

beebee[/url]":31r5r46v]

kebabbert[/url]":31r5r46v]

boostu[/url]":31r5r46v]

jandrese[/url]":31r5r46v]In theory it should be possible to port a Solaris app to Linux assuming nobody lost the source code. You'll have to go through the system fixing compiler quirks and whatnot, but that's probably only going to improve the code. Add in a little bit of driver writing for any of the custom hardware and you're done. Probably only cost the government half a billion dollars and take a decade.

This should be a lot less painful than trying to port some old Win16 or VMS application to Linux.

I highly doubt they were running Solaris 8 x86, that architecture didn't get much attention from Sun until Solaris 10. Porting from Solaris SPARC to Linux x86 is going to be quite the undertaking and having worked with Raytheon in the past, it's going to be a giant CF. Good on the Navy for moving to port the code to Linux though. My group is still running SGI servers that are closing in on 20 years old.

They are not using Linux for the critical avionics parts, they are using a RTOS. These systems are hard real time, not soft real time. That rules out Linux (Real time Linux does not cut it for serious applications). Solaris 8 (very old now) was used in the non critical avionics parts, as Linux is today. Solaris 8 support was end-of-line recently so they had to upgrade to later Solaris versions or Linux. Apparently they chose Linux over FreeBSD or Solaris.

QNX for controls? Not exactly linux though.

In the DoD systems I've worked on, VxWorks is what I see used most often for the RTOS.

and it's usually Green Hills INTEGRITY where it's not Wind River's stuff.

 

[RRob]

Intel vs Sparc reverses endianess, and they may be jumping from 32 bit to 64. As a programmer who has tried to get a lot of "Linux" code to compile/run on Solaris 10... I can tell you there's a ton of shit code out there.

2. Comunity is way bigger...Like way way way bigger.
3. So much of the newer software won't compile on BSD

Yeah, that large community tends to write non portable code targeting one architecture. It's not portable unix any longer. That's one reason I prefer NetBSD.

 

[davolfman]

Petruchio[/url]":37z002qu]
In the DoD systems I've worked on, VxWorks is what I see used most often for the RTOS.

Wait? That crap router OS that runs on all those pieces of consumer network hardware that I have to cycle power on daily? That VxWorks?

It's official: we're doomed

 

[fluxtatic]

vmjersey[/url]":1tbsjqbf]

StillNotATroll[/url]":1tbsjqbf]Sad they are using Linux over FreeBSD

BSD sucks hard!!! The week I spent in BSD made me appreciate even Ubuntu with it's clunky Unity Desktop.

Reasons why any distro of Linux is better:
1. Linux is much faster.
2. Comunity is way bigger...Like way way way bigger.
3. So much of the newer software won't compile on BSD.
4. Linux repositories kick BSD's ass...like it's not even close.


So...Booo ya.

So in the much much much smaller BSD community, is it also populated by assholes that are going to act like I'm stupid because I don't know the the Linux CLI inside and out?

 

[ampillion]

andy321[/url]":1bir902j]linux... a kick ass OS.

Too bad the same can't be said for desktop OS.

 

[mycroftxxx]

beebee[/url]":2rm3gkjw]

kebabbert[/url]":2rm3gkjw]

boostu[/url]":2rm3gkjw]

jandrese[/url]":2rm3gkjw]In theory it should be possible to port a Solaris app to Linux assuming nobody lost the source code. You'll have to go through the system fixing compiler quirks and whatnot, but that's probably only going to improve the code. Add in a little bit of driver writing for any of the custom hardware and you're done. Probably only cost the government half a billion dollars and take a decade.

This should be a lot less painful than trying to port some old Win16 or VMS application to Linux.

I highly doubt they were running Solaris 8 x86, that architecture didn't get much attention from Sun until Solaris 10. Porting from Solaris SPARC to Linux x86 is going to be quite the undertaking and having worked with Raytheon in the past, it's going to be a giant CF. Good on the Navy for moving to port the code to Linux though. My group is still running SGI servers that are closing in on 20 years old.

They are not using Linux for the critical avionics parts, they are using a RTOS. These systems are hard real time, not soft real time. That rules out Linux (Real time Linux does not cut it for serious applications). Solaris 8 (very old now) was used in the non critical avionics parts, as Linux is today. Solaris 8 support was end-of-line recently so they had to upgrade to later Solaris versions or Linux. Apparently they chose Linux over FreeBSD or Solaris.

QNX for controls? Not exactly linux though.

Nope, VxWorks is the embedded RTOS in the flight computer, running a custom NGC-proprietary middleware. QNX has zero penetration in the flight critical RTOS area; it's just about all either VxWorks or Green Hills Integrity.

 

[mycroftxxx]

Oh, and by the way, Raytheon's TCS is the biggest piece of shit you can possibly imagine. The Navy just needs to throw it away and start over...

 

[fulgu]

finally, Linux takes over the world!

 

[autopilot]

And now i know how Lego bricks are made
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/187829/sphere.jpg

 

[m bear]

This actually makes sense. There are several ships and control systems that already use Linux, so by moving from Solaris to Linux the Navy is able to tap into those developers as well.

And several plans show the Fire Scout is going to be deployed off of other ships besides the LCS.

 

[Chuck Wagon]

dddddddd207[/url]":38o7g5m4]What kind of joysticks is he using? Does the military just use gaming stuff?

Often times yes. The Xbox controller is very popular for lots of robotic systems. It seems weird at first but it does work.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/ ... roller.jpg

 

[ImpliedConsent]

beebee[/url]":vtlo33an]The article didn't mention what disty the Navy will be using, but I'm going to assume one of the commercial LTS versions.

Just an educated guess here, but I can assure you that they will not be using any distribution, but rather using a top secret, highly modified, highly tested, highly secure, impossibly locked Linux kernal based on DoD guideline. Raytheon will then build B2VL based on TCS modularity.

 

[jandrese]

ImpliedConsent[/url]":3mzyvu7p]

beebee[/url]":3mzyvu7p]The article didn't mention what disty the Navy will be using, but I'm going to assume one of the commercial LTS versions.

Just an educated guess here, but I can assure you that they will not be using any distribution, but rather using a top secret, highly modified, highly tested, highly secure, impossibly locked Linux kernal based on DoD guideline. Raytheon will then build B2VL based on TCS modularity.

Back in the real world, they're going to use commercial Redhat and apply the hardening procedures published by the NSA (example: http://www.nsa.gov/ia/_files/os/redhat/ ... E_v4.2.pdf) except where they break the mission critical applications.

 

[ImpliedConsent]

jandrese[/url]":d9w7j3qa]

ImpliedConsent[/url]":d9w7j3qa]

beebee[/url]":d9w7j3qa]The article didn't mention what disty the Navy will be using, but I'm going to assume one of the commercial LTS versions.

Just an educated guess here, but I can assure you that they will not be using any distribution, but rather using a top secret, highly modified, highly tested, highly secure, impossibly locked Linux kernal based on DoD guideline. Raytheon will then build B2VL based on TCS modularity.

Back in the real world, they're going to use commercial Redhat and apply the hardening procedures published by the NSA (example: http://www.nsa.gov/ia/_files/os/redhat/ ... E_v4.2.pdf) except where they break the mission critical applications.

Not arguing, remember, just a guess, I'm not involved in the project. Assuming that you are right about RHEL, that outdated NSA *guideline" (5.6 used 2.6.18) for Desktop, Server, and Advanced Platform link you provided does nothing to tell us that Raytheon absolutely will be using a "distribution". Again, my guess, they'll start with a DoD (or NSA) approved MRG Linux kernel, modify it, encrypt it, lock it and submit for approval. Assuming the kernel will be approved, they'll build the B2VL based on that modified kernel. I dunno - I don't know the details of the Navy/Raytheon agreement. If you know, enlighten us. You've got my attention now.