More than 2 million Teslas are being recalled due to unsafe Autopilot

Inadequate driver monitoring means that Autopilot is far too easily misused.

See full article...

 

[noraar]

Ars never used to be so nakedly biased. Your schadenfreude is showing: you know it’s not a recall. Its a software update. Shame on you.

Who knew the word "recall" could be so controversial? It's not like there aren't a plethora of words in the English language that have more than one definition. Just because you (and I'm directing the you at anyone who has a hard time accepting this recall as, well, a recall) define recall in a certain way does not mean that the NHSTA defines it in that same way. In fact, the NHSTA definition for recall is quite well known and well documented, and it is not an arguable thing. This is a recall, full stop - your own personal definition of it be damned.

 

[Derecho Imminent]

Its a total recall

 

[Reviewer3]

By the end of 2025, I'm hoping to be making full feature films out of this stuff ;-D

Don't quit your day job.

 

[terrydactyl]

Seems like "Professor" Irwin Corey has stated his opinion.

 

[traumadog]

I'd be a nervous wreck. Legally and realistically, we're the fallback in event of failure, no matter what crazy bullshit the car does--which means the computer might toss control back to us in the midst of an unrecoverable skid off the highway or two seconds before impact with a bridge abutment at sixty miles per hour.

Oops! Good luck with that, human!

FWIW, this is what really worries me about the Cybertruck. As a 100% "by-wire" system, there's zero physical connection between the steering wheel and steering mechanism.

And if Tesla persists in using the "steering wheel torque" method for determining if hands are on the wheel, I would really wonder how the software would interpret between "the hands are on the wheel" and "the driver is attempting to take over".

Especially since the steering wheel has a <360 degree lock-to-lock range, that means that even a small increment of deflection from center might be more than what the driver is actually looking for.

But if the software is then designed to filter that out, then the software might not return control to the driver in enough time to respond, even if it's "disengaged".

At which point the vehicle is a quite rigid folded stainless steel unguided missile.

 

[Bondi Surfer]

I think the NHTSA are using the term ‘recall’, as in to remember something. Like, do you recall when Elon said Teslas could drive entirely by themselves and someone was only sitting in the driver’s seat for legal reasons, when in actuality they’re killing people and smashing into emergency service vehicles. Because I recall that…

 

[FoggySal]

Please describe your methodology, specifically. Or this is just an embarrassing way of sharing your feelings in graphical format so you can pretend that your subjective feelings are the equivalent of objective facts?

His feelings are very colorful.

 

[coremelt]

Man, I’m with the pedants on this one. The Feds have called for a recall, but Tesla isn’t recalling the cars, that would mean they’re telling customers to bring the car in to be serviced. You might say ‘Tesla is required to provide fixes for a recall’, but not that they are recalling the cars.

No. It's a recall because it's a mandatory fix that must be applied for you to legally keep driving those vehicles on public roads. The fact it's done over the air instead of at the dealership is irrelevant.

 

[FoggySal]

OK, I wanted to give the graph another shot, in the hopes you'll find this more useful and entertaining. And before people condemn me for trying, keep in mind that this is still subjective, even if I'm seemingly trying to make it look more objective. And as requested, his time I'll explain how I came up with the graph up front:

1. Defining the Criteria for Grading:
- Support for Tesla: How strongly does the comment support Tesla? (Scale: 1-5, with 5 being strong support)
- Criticism of Tesla: How critical is the comment towards Tesla? (Scale: 1-5, with 5 being highly critical)
- Emotional Tone: How emotional is the language used? (Scale: 1-5, with 5 being highly emotional)
- Argument Rationality: How rational and fact-based is the argument? (Scale: 1-5, with 5 being highly rational)

2. Sampling Comments:
- Randomly select a representative sample of comments from the forum thread.

3. Grading Each Comment:
- Assign a score for each criterion based on the content of the comment.

4. Example Comment and Rating:
- Comment: "Tesla is revolutionizing the industry, and the recall is just a minor setback."
- Support for Tesla: 4 (Supportive of Tesla's impact)
- Criticism of Tesla: 1 (Minor criticism)
- Emotional Tone: 3 (Somewhat emotional)
- Argument Rationality: 3 (Moderately rational)

5. Aggregating Data:
- Compile the scores from all sampled comments.

6. Graph Creation:
- Use the aggregated data to create a graph showing the distribution of support, criticism, emotion, and rationality in the comments.

7. Interpreting the Graph:
- Analyze the graph to understand the overall sentiment in the discussion.

8. Limitations and Biases:
- Acknowledge any potential biases in comment selection and personal interpretation of the comments.
- Recognize that the sample may not perfectly represent the entire thread.

This methodology aims to provide a more empirical approach to understanding the sentiment in the forum discussion, though it's important to note that any analysis of this nature is subject to interpretative biases and the limitations inherent in qualitative data analysis.

The graph above represents an analysis of selected comments from the Tesla forum discussion, rated on four criteria: Support for Tesla, Criticism of Tesla, Emotional Tone, and Argument Rationality. Each comment was graded on a scale from 1 to 5 for each criterion. Here are some examples of comments and how they were rated:

1. Comment 1: "Tesla is revolutionizing the industry, and the recall is just a minor setback."
- Support for Tesla: 4 (Strong support)
- Criticism of Tesla: 1 (Minimal criticism)
- Emotional Tone: 3 (Moderately emotional)
- Argument Rationality: 3 (Reasonably rational)

2. Comment 2: "This 'recall' shows Tesla's irresponsible approach to safety."
- Support for Tesla: 2 (Somewhat supportive)
- Criticism of Tesla: 4 (Highly critical)
- Emotional Tone: 4 (Quite emotional)
- Argument Rationality: 2 (Somewhat rational)

3. Comment 3: "People are overreacting. It's just a software update, not a real recall."
- Support for Tesla: 1 (Low support)
- Criticism of Tesla: 5 (Very critical)
- Emotional Tone: 2 (Low emotional tone)
- Argument Rationality: 4 (Highly rational)

4. Comment 4: "Tesla is all hype, no substance. This recall fiasco proves it."
- Support for Tesla: 5 (Very supportive)
- Criticism of Tesla: 2 (Moderate criticism)
- Emotional Tone: 5 (Highly emotional)
- Argument Rationality: 1 (Low rationality)

5. Comment 5: "We need to look at the facts before judging Tesla on this recall."
- Support for Tesla: 3 (Moderately supportive)
- Criticism of Tesla: 3 (Neutral)
- Emotional Tone: 3 (Moderately emotional)
- Argument Rationality: 5 (Very rational)

The graph offers a visual representation of the diversity of opinions and tones within the forum discussion. It's important to note that these scores are subjective and based on interpretation of the comments.

I also made a song for you guys inspired by the comments, so you can have background music while you read my wall of text:


View: https://youtu.be/j3MYaMuVugo

Spoiler

By the end of 2025, I'm hoping to be making full feature films out of this stuff ;-D

OK, I wanted to give the graph another shot, in the hopes you'll find this more useful and entertaining. And before people condemn me for trying, keep in mind that this is still subjective, even if I'm seemingly trying to make it look more objective. And as requested, his time I'll explain how I came up with the graph up front:

1. Defining the Criteria for Grading:
- Support for Tesla: How strongly does the comment support Tesla? (Scale: 1-5, with 5 being strong support)
- Criticism of Tesla: How critical is the comment towards Tesla? (Scale: 1-5, with 5 being highly critical)
- Emotional Tone: How emotional is the language used? (Scale: 1-5, with 5 being highly emotional)
- Argument Rationality: How rational and fact-based is the argument? (Scale: 1-5, with 5 being highly rational)

2. Sampling Comments:
- Randomly select a representative sample of comments from the forum thread.

3. Grading Each Comment:
- Assign a score for each criterion based on the content of the comment.

4. Example Comment and Rating:
- Comment: "Tesla is revolutionizing the industry, and the recall is just a minor setback."
- Support for Tesla: 4 (Supportive of Tesla's impact)
- Criticism of Tesla: 1 (Minor criticism)
- Emotional Tone: 3 (Somewhat emotional)
- Argument Rationality: 3 (Moderately rational)

5. Aggregating Data:
- Compile the scores from all sampled comments.

6. Graph Creation:
- Use the aggregated data to create a graph showing the distribution of support, criticism, emotion, and rationality in the comments.

7. Interpreting the Graph:
- Analyze the graph to understand the overall sentiment in the discussion.

8. Limitations and Biases:
- Acknowledge any potential biases in comment selection and personal interpretation of the comments.
- Recognize that the sample may not perfectly represent the entire thread.

This methodology aims to provide a more empirical approach to understanding the sentiment in the forum discussion, though it's important to note that any analysis of this nature is subject to interpretative biases and the limitations inherent in qualitative data analysis.

The graph above represents an analysis of selected comments from the Tesla forum discussion, rated on four criteria: Support for Tesla, Criticism of Tesla, Emotional Tone, and Argument Rationality. Each comment was graded on a scale from 1 to 5 for each criterion. Here are some examples of comments and how they were rated:

1. Comment 1: "Tesla is revolutionizing the industry, and the recall is just a minor setback."
- Support for Tesla: 4 (Strong support)
- Criticism of Tesla: 1 (Minimal criticism)
- Emotional Tone: 3 (Moderately emotional)
- Argument Rationality: 3 (Reasonably rational)

2. Comment 2: "This 'recall' shows Tesla's irresponsible approach to safety."
- Support for Tesla: 2 (Somewhat supportive)
- Criticism of Tesla: 4 (Highly critical)
- Emotional Tone: 4 (Quite emotional)
- Argument Rationality: 2 (Somewhat rational)

3. Comment 3: "People are overreacting. It's just a software update, not a real recall."
- Support for Tesla: 1 (Low support)
- Criticism of Tesla: 5 (Very critical)
- Emotional Tone: 2 (Low emotional tone)
- Argument Rationality: 4 (Highly rational)

4. Comment 4: "Tesla is all hype, no substance. This recall fiasco proves it."
- Support for Tesla: 5 (Very supportive)
- Criticism of Tesla: 2 (Moderate criticism)
- Emotional Tone: 5 (Highly emotional)
- Argument Rationality: 1 (Low rationality)

5. Comment 5: "We need to look at the facts before judging Tesla on this recall."
- Support for Tesla: 3 (Moderately supportive)
- Criticism of Tesla: 3 (Neutral)
- Emotional Tone: 3 (Moderately emotional)
- Argument Rationality: 5 (Very rational)

The graph offers a visual representation of the diversity of opinions and tones within the forum discussion. It's important to note that these scores are subjective and based on interpretation of the comments.

I also made a song for you guys inspired by the comments, so you can have background music while you read my wall of text:


View: https://youtu.be/j3MYaMuVugo

Spoiler

By the end of 2025, I'm hoping to be making full feature films out of this stuff ;-D

You spend too much time with AI.

 

[@inemesitaffia]

At some point, they should be required to recall their vehicles and add the hardware that should have been there all along, instead of relying on them to make more and more tweaks to the software to make up for Musk's insistence on minimal hardware, which has a long history of being shown to be inadequate.

This recall includes cars with said hardware..

 

[aq42]

How current? I drive a '22 M3P, and I can literally remote start it from my phone. Which I only discovered because I had to do it once, when my wife managed to drive it seventy miles away with her key fob in the garage: close enough that the car started here, but when she got to her sister's place, she was stuck.

I know for a fact there was no weight in the drivers seat, because she was ALSO locked out of the car until I did that for her with my phone... Again, from around seventy miles away.

You can power it on remotely. You can't put it into Drive or Reverse remotely. Perhaps I was thinking in ICE and key terms, where key position 1 wakes the car up, but yoiu need the key to be in position 2 to run and position 3 to start the engine (at least here). Opening the door on a Tesla will wake it up and light the screen.

 

[launcap]

Just drove a Polestar with the same detection mechanism and it is horrible having to constantly jerk the wheel to prove to adaptive cruise that my hands are on the wheel.

I wonder how this would work with steering wheel handles? (as part of my arthritis adaptions I have a shaped steering wheel handle - I alternate between holding the wheel and using the handle as holding my hands in the same position for a while gets really painful - psoriatic arthritis, I really hate you!).

I'm assuming that it purely responds to steering wheel movement rather than the capacitative detection of hands touching the wheel (which wouldn't work with a steering handle).

 

[launcap]

Because instead of the 75 she set the TACC to, it was perfectly shadowing whatever car was ahead of her in the slow lane

Driving with adaptive cruise control (which is what most of Europe calls it) is quite a different skill from normal cruise control. You have to be aware of slower cars quite a distance ahead and either pull into another (hopefully clear) lane or override the cruise control by using the accelerator.

Since I tend to drive slightly faster than the average on the motorway, adaptive cruise control can be a pain at times and virtually unusable if the motorway is crowded.

 

[launcap]

here's obviously a cost associated with a touch detection system but it solves the torque the wheel problem and does so reliably

And is utterly unusable for people with disability and/or arthritis adaptions (like having a shaped steering wheel handle) where their hands are not on the actual wheel.

 

[jakk]

Several Chinese manufactures already selling L4 cars in China and although I think Tesla's have some great engineering the cruise control and FSD are lacking solely due to Elon's insistence on thinking cameras and a NN are currently equal to human eyes and brain.

 

[launcap]

Agreed. In fact, I went to a lot of trouble to learn to drive, and especially to drive well. I like computers, but I prefer to drive myself, thank you.

It was a shock when I realised a month or so ago that I've had a full car license for more than 40 years.. And a full motorbike license for about 30.

I'm getting old. I'm also a techie-luddite - I work with technology all day and, for that reason, don't trust it one bit. I know how badly it can go wrong and the thought of trusting several tons of fast-moving metal and plastic to something that I have little control over scares me!

 

[nzod]

The graph, as I mentioned, is a conceptual tool, not a rigorous study. Its purpose was to visually represent the discussion's dynamics, based on general observations of sentiments expressed in the forum. While I appreciate constructive criticism, equating this illustrative effort with 'sharing feelings in graphical format' might be missing the point. It's a simplified representation to foster understanding, not a declaration of objective facts. Disagreement is welcome, but let's keep the conversation respectful and focused on constructive dialogue.

Do you enjoy sounding like a protocol droid (minus the wit)? R-2 would die of boredom.

 

[launcap]

For all that those two don't get along, they have got an AWFUL lot in common.

And, if you average out the personalities, you'd get two normal personalities..

 

[1FX]

Ars never used to be so nakedly biased. Your schadenfreude is showing: you know it’s not a recall. Its a software update. Shame on you.

This point is still going on??

Omg ppl. When a food product is recalled they tell you you can throw it out, you don't have to return it. That's still a recall. A recall is a recall is a recall. This is really not hard, a recall is when a regulator says there's a safety problem and the public needs to know about it. That's it.

 

[ender78]

So what happens to the people that paid 15,000 dollars for FSD?

They may have ammunition for a class action lawsuit.

 

[Ozy]

We're never going to agree. I get that it's a recall, a legal process. The point is that the legal process of a recall and the general meaning of the word (to order something be returned to a place) are not aligned, and therefore the use of the word can cause confusion. Which it has here - when I read the title I assumed it meant that Teslas had to be physically returned for repair. Yes, the article explained that's not the case, I fully understand that. But think how often to articles get shared and people only read the title - very often.

And then what happens?

 

[Dr Gitlin]

We're never going to agree. I get that it's a recall, a legal process. The point is that the legal process of a recall and the general meaning of the word (to order something be returned to a place) are not aligned, and therefore the use of the word can cause confusion. Which it has here - when I read the title I assumed it meant that Teslas had to be physically returned for repair. Yes, the article explained that's not the case, I fully understand that. But think how often to articles get shared and people only read the title - very often.

And? If just reading the headline gives that person the impression there's a dangerous safety defect then good, that's the point!

 

[Derecho Imminent]

For those that doubt - Tesla themselves call it a recall.
https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-firmware-prevent-autosteer-misuse

Update Vehicle Firmware to Prevent Driver Misuse of Autosteer
Tesla has voluntarily issued a recall on certain model year 2012-2023 Model S...

QED

 

[ranthog]

I think what really separates Super Cruise from Autopilot is the confidence that if its available then its going to work well. This is another reason why it really benefits from driver monitoring. Where Tesla on the other hand might work well or it might re-center in the right lane when a lane merges in.

There is also a new version of Super Cruise that also does lane changes.

The point I was making is you absolutely have to have camera based driver monitoring for hands free systems. It's not like they even had a choice.

The loss of situational awareness is a subconscious thing that driver monitor doesn't solve. It's simply a consequence of L2 technology.

What driver monitor does attempt to solve is intentional driver distraction like using a phone or staring out the side window at the beauty next to you (the car).

In any case a lot of companies have lane steering these days. In fact I would expect any car I get to have lane steering as opposed to lane keep.

What I think is interesting about Tesla is they have Tesla insurance, and yet they're still hesitant in going full on with driver monitoring. One would think its in their own best interest to introduce one that worked really well.

Yes, the implementation of the functional driver monitoring system allows Super Cruise to be hands free as a side effect. It's not like Autopilot and Super Cruise are in different categories. They're both comparable advanced level 2 systems. Consumer Reports, which has been extremely critical of the flaws in Autopilot's driver monitoring system, rates these two systems as fairly comparable in capabilities.

The only point of driver monitoring systems is to alert the driver if their attention drifts and to attempt to keep them engaged and situationally aware. Part of that does mean detecting if someone is not paying attention. They are not just there to combat intentional distraction.

Lane steering is certainly not standard on all vehicles today. Systems like Super Cruise are not even offered on all trims on the cars it is available for. Most driver assist systems are simpler systems that do not have the problem with disengagement. You might choose to have one of these systems on your next car, but its going to be a whole before they're available standard.

 

[EnPeaSea]

She said it’s fine, so we’re in the clear.

Narrator: It wasn't fine.

 

[Jim Salter]

Now my wife is mad at me for erasing a grocery list.

Tell her it was worth it. Some guy on the Internet told you so, and he seems REAL confident of that!

Seriously friend, that was a work of fucking ART and I am here for it.

 

[Longmile149]

Man, I’m with the pedants on this one. The Feds have called for a recall, but Tesla isn’t recalling the cars, that would mean they’re telling customers to bring the car in to be serviced. You might say ‘Tesla is required to provide fixes for a recall’, but not that they are recalling the cars.

Pedon’ts.

If it’s super important to you that people not use the correct word, you’re a pedon’t.

 

[Jim Salter]

Why do you put so much effort into pointless wastes of time?

Don't get me wrong, I love graphs. But this is just stupid, and it's not cuz of the graphs mostly.

I suspect it's considerably less (human) effort than you think it is. The AI tools appear to be doing the majority of the actual "effort," kamus largely just needs to direct them to make it.

I would assume there is still a fair amount of fiddling to get what he's looking for, but it's more like bossing a particularly stupid but willing employee to do a task than like actually doing it yourself.

 

[Longmile149]

Tell her it was worth it. Some guy on the Internet told you so, and he seems REAL confident of that!

Seriously friend, that was a work of fucking ART and I am here for it.

Not gonna lie, I made myself laugh with it last night.

My lady friend (still) thinks (correctly) that I am a child, but I just opened the pic up and laughed again, so I’m good with that.

 

[1FX]

I suspect it's considerably less (human) effort than you think it is. The AI tools appear to be doing the majority of the actual "effort," kamus largely just needs to direct them to make it.

I would assume there is still a fair amount of fiddling to get what he's looking for, but it's more like bossing a particularly stupid but willing employee to do a task than like actually doing it yourself.

Maybe that's why I haven't gotten into the AI tools so much. I don't like the feeling of doing that to real people either.

 

[Jim Salter]

Driving with adaptive cruise control (which is what most of Europe calls it) is quite a different skill from normal cruise control. You have to be aware of slower cars quite a distance ahead and either pull into another (hopefully clear) lane or override the cruise control by using the accelerator.

Since I tend to drive slightly faster than the average on the motorway, adaptive cruise control can be a pain at times and virtually unusable if the motorway is crowded.

Or, in a system like the Nissan's which doesn't panic brake for no reason, you just shrug and relax and take a little longer to get there, but do it with greater fuel efficiency due to the lower speed and no frustration about the person in front of you going slower than you were because it's not something you need to do anything about in order not to collide.

I found it very Zen, personally. I can't bear to drive at slow-lane speeds when I'm the one managing the throttle, but when the car is, AND I can trust it? Yeah, I'm pretty content just to go along with whatever lane I'm in for quite some time.

I don't get the same effect with the TACC on my M3P because of the phantom panic braking. Which happens often enough that I have to REALLY monitor it, override it with the accel as quickly as possible when it DOES panic brake, and that keeps me both connected enough and irritated enough that I'm right back to being unwilling to simply follow the slowbie in front.

What I will say for the M3P here is that the instant effortless torque and the strong regen braking on single pedal make me a lot less annoyed at the slowbies when I'm not messing with TACC, because it feels so much easier and less "expensive" both to slow down as you approach AND to accelerate back to your desired cruise speed once they're passable or have exited.

 

[numerobis]

FWIW, this is what really worries me about the Cybertruck. As a 100% "by-wire" system, there's zero physical connection between the steering wheel and steering mechanism.

And if Tesla persists in using the "steering wheel torque" method for determining if hands are on the wheel, I would really wonder how the software would interpret between "the hands are on the wheel" and "the driver is attempting to take over".

Especially since the steering wheel has a <360 degree lock-to-lock range, that means that even a small increment of deflection from center might be more than what the driver is actually looking for.

But if the software is then designed to filter that out, then the software might not return control to the driver in enough time to respond, even if it's "disengaged".

At which point the vehicle is a quite rigid folded stainless steel unguided missile.

Distinguishing between "torque sensor assesses that driver has hands on wheel" and "driver wants to steer" is just based on how much torque the driver puts on the wheel. A small amount of torque -> keep AP enabled. A large amount -> disable AP.

I would expect literally every lane-keeping system would ignore small inputs to the wheel, but allow larger inputs to take over and disable the lane-keeper. Tesla has their system disconnect and chime, just like a plane autopilot; I gather some other systems re-enable their automation when the input ends.

(PS: also, torque sensors for gauging whether the driver is engaged are stupid.)

 

[coremelt]

We're never going to agree. I get that it's a recall, a legal process. The point is that the legal process of a recall and the general meaning of the word (to order something be returned to a place) are not aligned, and therefore the use of the word can cause confusion. Which it has here - when I read the title I assumed it meant that Teslas had to be physically returned for repair. Yes, the article explained that's not the case, I fully understand that. But think how often to articles get shared and people only read the title - very often.

Good. If people get the wrong idea maybe Tesla share price will drop to where it should be relative to other car companies. Free up some investment dollars to put into other tech companies doing more interesting things.

 

[Kamus]

Good. If people get the wrong idea maybe Tesla share price will drop to where it should be relative to other car companies. Free up some investment dollars to put into other tech companies doing more interesting things.

Yep, cause they're just "metal benders" like other car companies, right?


View: https://youtu.be/cpraXaw7dyc?si=99ZCQg5U_Tw7SK3m