More than 2 million Teslas are being recalled due to unsafe Autopilot
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After several road trips with autopilot, I've noticed that it is very good and very stupid.
Phantom braking is a constant source of irritation. We want products to fail safely, but an uncomfortable ride makes things unsafe. Too many incidents of boy cried wolf desensitizes people to alerts and warnings.
Auto pilot was clearly designed for controlled access highways. Even then it makes questionable decisions. There are times the car wants to change lanes with absolutely no traffic or navigation. The car will pass slow moving vehicles but then never return to the right lane. However, when I was in the HOV lane I had to cancel the change lane every 30 seconds. It even tried forcing me to change lanes through double white lines.
When working as intended auto pilot reduces driving fatigue. Theoretically it should consistently drive in a safe manner and not make human mistakes causing an accident. In practice you still need to be alert and observant ready to take over at a moment's notice.
Phantom braking is a constant source of irritation. We want products to fail safely, but an uncomfortable ride makes things unsafe. Too many incidents of boy cried wolf desensitizes people to alerts and warnings.
Auto pilot was clearly designed for controlled access highways. Even then it makes questionable decisions. There are times the car wants to change lanes with absolutely no traffic or navigation. The car will pass slow moving vehicles but then never return to the right lane. However, when I was in the HOV lane I had to cancel the change lane every 30 seconds. It even tried forcing me to change lanes through double white lines.
When working as intended auto pilot reduces driving fatigue. Theoretically it should consistently drive in a safe manner and not make human mistakes causing an accident. In practice you still need to be alert and observant ready to take over at a moment's notice.
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I don't think that argument holds when other road users are exposed to risk from this without their consent
E: ugh ars quotes, never change (but seriously ars please fix quoting)
E: ugh ars quotes, never change (but seriously ars please fix quoting)
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Except that Tesla is mandated to provide this fix because of external safety regulations.
That's the difference.
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Normal software bugs don't potentially kill people. People need to be notified.
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Just drove a Polestar with the same detection mechanism and it is horrible having to constantly jerk the wheel to prove to adaptive cruise that my hands are on the wheel.
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I think this is a great point and all this can be summarized as: A recall means get a dangerous/defective product out of consumer hands. The means by which this can be done range from return/refund to repair of the defect by the manufacturer by any available means (physical repair, technician repair software update either manual or automatic) as long as it means the manufacturer pulls the defect out of the market at their expense and responsibility
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If your software is in a position to cause physical harm, and the government makes you patch it, that is a recall. Not all patches will involve a recall, but if there is a recall you will certainly be patching or discontinuing that software (and sending out a notice).
A car is one of the more likely places you will find a recall over software, but not the only one.
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And somewhat ironically for Tesla specifically, since they rely heavily on mobile technicians instead of dealerships for fixes, even physical fixes might mean you don't have to bring it in - they'll bring the fix to you. So does that make it not a recall too (according to some people)?
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This in some ways is as much a communications issue as a technical issue.
This may have happened with Musk, before.
Famous corporate tag lines:
Nike - Just do it.
McDonalds - I'm lovin' it
Red Bull - Red Bull gives you wings
X - Go F**k yourself
This may have happened with Musk, before.
Famous corporate tag lines:
Nike - Just do it.
McDonalds - I'm lovin' it
Red Bull - Red Bull gives you wings
X - Go F**k yourself
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That hasn't been your point at all. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite of what you've been saying.
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The linked Reddit thread/Twitter video is hilarious. It's not just teddy bears being recognised as human drivers. It's also dogs, balloons with smiley face drawn in marker, and (my personal favourite) a giant inflatable champagne bottle.
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Things like that should kill a company, and has in the past.
you mean like what GM does with Super/Ultra Cruise and Ford with BlueCruise?
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Then you missed my point. Microsoft could call it a recall if they wanted to because it is, but they're not required to call it that by regulatory authority so they don't because software as a product remains an odd duck in the industry. Pretty much any other product, especially anything physical the same types of defect are a recall full stop. Software products are the odd duck here and not the gold standard you seem to think.
Our entire industry is the odd duck or exception to the rule from how it's sold to how it's developed and accredited compared to other engineering disciplines. A bridge collapse and someone's getting their license pulled and possibly facing criminal charges, a software defect deletes all a companies records and it's lol whatever hope you had a backup. We're the odd ones out on safety and accountability.
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- Add bookmark
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The Washington Post ran a scathing front page article this weekend, really calling out the NHTSA for their inaction on this front.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/12/10/tesla-autopilot-crash/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/12/10/tesla-autopilot-crash/
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yeah, NHTSA has been appalling on this issue, but it's probably terrified that if it took action against Musk he'd set his army of alt-right trolls on it, the way he went after Misty Cummings.
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I'm sad that so many people want to say "hey if you can patch with software it's a software update not a safety recall."
This is why we can't have nice things and so much of our software sucks. People are willing to allow software to be defective to degrees that they'd never allow for in a non-software product because "it can be patched". So what? It's still defective, and if it is defective in a way that compromises safety it should be recalled in such a way that everyone who owns one actually panics and gets the patch done ASAP.
If we treated more of our software security issues as if they were safety recalls instead of "just" bad software we might have a lot fewer ransomware attacks going on these days.
This is why we can't have nice things and so much of our software sucks. People are willing to allow software to be defective to degrees that they'd never allow for in a non-software product because "it can be patched". So what? It's still defective, and if it is defective in a way that compromises safety it should be recalled in such a way that everyone who owns one actually panics and gets the patch done ASAP.
If we treated more of our software security issues as if they were safety recalls instead of "just" bad software we might have a lot fewer ransomware attacks going on these days.
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ColdWetDog
Ars Legatus Legionis
First post after 8 years. Welcome to Ars.
And since you haven't been keeping up with us all that much, let me suggest that it isn't the role of everyone else to prove or disprove an issue. If you have a problem with a statistic you are free to do some research and, if you are a charitable sort, let the rest of us know what you found.
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Re the fails both ways part, I have a Model 3 and I think I use the automation in a safe way and the car still yells at me. That just highlights how bad the current solution actually is. If you're fully paying attention to the road and autosteer is working so you don't feel the need to correct it, it will complain. So you have to fight it whether it's doing what you want or what you don't want. I like the car overall, I know I know, but it absolutely has some bad decisions in it too.
Edit: and that's assuming you the driver have good intentions. If you don't then yeah, the fact that it's too easy to trick comes into play as another big flaw
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What is your problem? NHTSA calls it a recall. Everyone familiar with cars, and even those unfamiliar with cars, understands that the word "recall" means that they need to pay attention.
You got a problem with clear, unambiguous, communication?
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Just to give an idea of how long development for stuff like this can take: one of my EE professors (and her grad students, obviously) were working on a grant from GM (and maybe also govt) for driver alertness monitoring when I was in school back in 2006. I was never involved but the wrap-around driving simulator they had set up in the corner of one of our labs was pretty cool (for the time).
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"The government requires the manufacturer to recall the product, but does not require the manufacturer to recall the product." is a perfectly correct and valid sentence, but only a smart ass would choose to write it that way.
So I agree with your point, but also disagree with it. Because people will use the above to claim that something isn't really a product recall, because the manufacturer didn't have to recall the product.
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This is embarrassing. Especially when you've been corrected so many times
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Now the question will be. Will Tesla update the car while it is driving in autopilot. That would make for some fun headlines.
A phone is different. You'd see the invention of the Hotdog hand device. Where it simulates a hand.
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Autopilot-engaged Teslas have killed non-Tesla-owning people. What exactly did they do to merit being included in your Darwinian selection fantasy?
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The only people denying this is a recall are people with an alterior motive.
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It's about time! How long have simple defeat devices been able to bypass the torque check? It feels like Elmo tacitly endorses that kind of behavior with his marketing pitches.
Between this recall and the false advertising lawsuit, it's great to see Tesla finally taken to task for greatly exaggerating its driver assist capabilities.
Between this recall and the false advertising lawsuit, it's great to see Tesla finally taken to task for greatly exaggerating its driver assist capabilities.
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Recall is a term describing one of the NHTSA regulatory authorities.
It is a term with meaning and not a random vocabulary decision.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.g...nding_nhtsas_current_regulatory_tools-tag.pdf
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Concur. I disabled autopilot in my model 3 entirely (TACC-only, it just beeps angrily if you try to engage full autopilot) but when I was testing it, I found it pretty difficult to walk the line between "it thinks your hand isn't on the wheel" and "it thinks you took over, because you turned the wheel too far."
The most reliable way I found to keep the thing on was to NOT put my hands on the wheel, and to deliberately reach up and tug the wheel a tiny amount whenever it beeped at me and NOT having my hands on the wheel (a several minute interval, usually).
That would've been abominable even if I trusted the damn thing, and having supervised its driving, I do NOT trust the damn thing. Hence why I disabled it entirely.
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Suggestion: Have a checkbox at the end of every Musk-related article where the person acknowledges they've read the whole thing. If someone doesn't check the box, a disclaimer appears at the top of every one of their posts saying they didn't read the article.
I figure there are just people who see "Tesla" and "recall" in a headline and go into some sort of Hulk Smash rage.
Alright, let's walk you through your "point." If you agree that "it's a recall in all but name", that means you agree that it's a recall. But it's already called a recall. So congratulations! You agree that it's appropriately called a recall!
Let's move on with our lives now.
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The driver attention monitoring is shit no matter whether the road is limited access.
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Without autopilot, the number of collisions where autopilot was implicated would be 0. Obviously.
And Jonahan was being kind in limiting the data to nine months. According to the Washington Post, at least 736 collisions and 17 fatalities involving Tesla Autopilot were reported to the NHSTA from 2019 to earlier this year.
And if you think Tesla is being treated unfairly, I would note that in comparison, Ford was recently forced to recall 240,000 Ford Explorers over a defective part that had 396 reports generated, but no known accidents or fatalities.
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We're not protecting the Tesla drivers from themselves. They can personally win a Darwin Award all they want, that's cool. But It's not "natural selection" or "survival of the fittest" if some moron drives his Tesla through a busy crosswalk and kills a bunch of other people.
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A recall is more than applying a fix. The manufacturer is legally obligated to notify affected customers of the problem, what will be done to remediate it, and what the customer needs to do, if necessary, to get the remediation applied. The manufacturer is legally obligated to track which vehicles have had the remediation applied to them and provide that information to the NHTSA. The manufacturer is legally obligated to periodically follow up with notices via snail mail to the customer's last known address if the recall work isn't getting performed (I got recall notices from GM for a car I bought second hand in another state, they got my address from the state DOT via a VIN search). If necessary, the manufacturer is legally obligated to physically remediate the problem, at their own expense, and for remediation via software, this includes having a technician physically plug a computer into the car to update the software if over-the-air updates cannot be installed for whatever reason.
No matter how you cut it, this is a recall.
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