Microsoft should stick to its guns and keep the Start button gone

Op-ed: If Redmond wants Metro apps to succeed, it needs education, not capitulation.

Read the whole story

 

[nicknomo]

Pretty much everyone in the real world hates the interface in Windows 8. Very few people have told me that they like Metro on a desktop. To be honest, compared to other products, its not popular on a phone or tablet either.

It was clearly meant to try to shoe horn the tablet interface into the Windows using populace, and make them familiar with the UI so they might buy a tablet or phone.

The masses have spoken though. Everyone thinks this is a shitty idea. Is over and done with. This attempt to salvage windows 8 appeases no one.

Microsoft is stubborn, but no one is going to buy their products like this. Just get rid of metro already, before you drive everyone off of your operating system into the arms of Apple.

 

[Martin Blank]

TomXP411[/url]":31yjrso2]

vogelabv[/url]":31yjrso2]

DrPizza[/url]":31yjrso2]My original copy did not include the word "whiners". That was a change made by an editor. I wrote "complainants".

Your editors sure know how to stoke a firestorm.

Editors should not be revising an author's text. They should send suggestions back to the author, who should change it. Any other system literally puts someone else's words in your mouth; that's a very, very bad idea.

Indeed. And while alohadave seems to think such a practice is acceptable, editing by editors should bring clarity or adapt for length, not change the meaning, and in any case it should be a discussion, especially when bringing in a word like that.

Peter, I offer my apologies for my previous post that called much of what you wrote a justification for a dismissal of others' viewpoints, and look forward to re-reading the article tomorrow when I have time and the remainder of the backlash mentality has somewhat subsided.

 

[ParadiseLost]

I'm fine with change, I'm fine with new user interfaces. Just don't try to sell me a touch interface as a positive UI change that I have to live with just because someone at Microsoft envies the iPad's success.

Metro needs to go.

 

[Martin Blank]

OP![/url]":3tec31j5]I know there's keyboard shortcuts I can use but it's a pain to learn the modifiers for RDP shortcuts, now it's actually worth it to learn some more of them I guess.

Why not just configure the RDP client to send Windows key combos to the remote computer? It works for full-screen and smaller windows; I do it on every connection. You have to remember to pull focus from the RDP window to run local Windows key commands, but it's a lot better than learning new combos.

 

[drfisheye]

AreWeThereYeti[/url]":d235j4vk]Give us back the option for hierarchichal drill-down, or GTFO.

No need to shout. The drill-down can be easily added to the taskbar. Just add a toolbar pointing to the start menu folder.

 

[candlesayshi]

I really find it hard to believe that people are needing to Google how to shutdown Windows 8. I don't actually believe that for one second.

Just sounds too hyperbolic.

 

[zer0x1A4]

OP![/url]":285l7cg2]I don't really care what they do with Windows 8, and I don't really care about the Start Menu, but to omit the Start button on Server 2012 is criminal. Right now if I'm on a Remote Desktop session to a server and I want to open up the command prompt I have to jiggle my mouse in the corner where the button used to be so that I can right click it to get the "Run" option. Doing that over a slow connection SUCKS and makes for a terrible interface design. I know there's keyboard shortcuts I can use but it's a pain to learn the modifiers for RDP shortcuts, now it's actually worth it to learn some more of them I guess.

If they really wanted to redesign the UI that's fine, but they took a tablet/personal computer interface and shoved it onto a server OS. Very, very frustrating and I can't wait to have that button back on my servers.

Hey remember when you were able to go directly from a working directory in Windows to the Command Prompt in that same directory? Ya know - way back in Windows 7, where all you needed to do was hold shift + right-click in that folder and there you had a simple option to "open command window here"? ... yep that's gone in Windows 8 as well. It's a PITA but I managed to get it back albeit by manually diving into the registry editor and then the System Environment Variables and making some alterations. And again I'm only discussing Win 8 desktop - The fact that these scenarios and Metro were shoved onto the Server environment for Windows is incomprehensible.

 

[vogelabv]

DemBones79[/url]":97vhjw6r]I really don't get some of the criticisms I've read in this comment thread. It's almost like the majority of the critics haven't spent the time to actually get to know Windows 8, and haven't actually read and comprehended the changes coming in 8.1.

Don't take the downvotes as negatives. In this article I think most of them will correlate with people who haven't used Windows 8. I noticed the same thing as I read through responses here - a very significant amount of misinformation is flowing about and a lot of rabid rage. As an INTP I don't quite "get" locked in to platforms as easily as other people, so maybe that's why I found Windows 8 useful. Maybe it's also why I don't get why so many of these comments are saying that doom is here because they don't want to run Visual Studio and Photoshop as a metro app because they can't do multimonitor support well. Well, there IS a desktop environment still, and we are talking about a start menu, and desktop programs just like they've always been.

Ah, no matter. I just wanted to say thanks for writing. Your post was accurate and had very little opinion in it. There is no reason for a thumbs down except for ignorance and grand standing. I consider the downvotes a test case of how skewed they are currently being assigned.

 

[Lemmi]

Peter Bright yet again trolls the readers of ARS and gets 10 pages of comments and a huge number of page views for his dishonesty.

Full points to Bright. He got exactly the response he was shooting for. The funny part is that he probably doesn't believe half the claptrap in this ridiculous op-ed.

 

[candlesayshi]

zer0x1A4[/url]":1inftkbg]Hey remember when you were able to go directly from a working directory in Windows to the Command Prompt in that same directory? Ya know - way back in Windows 7, where all you needed to do was hold shift + right-click in that folder and there you had a simple option to "open command window here"? ... yep that's gone in Windows 8 as well

Aw... I do remember that... because it's still in Windows 8.

 

[ChefJoe]

What's this windows button you guys have ? I can't find it on my Model M clicky keyboard. Is it next to the any key ?

 

[FLamparski]

malor[/url]":16cq1b3z]Metro is an existential threat to everything that has made your company and your livelihoods possible. Pushing Metro, telling people to add Microsoft-controlled DRM to their operating systems, is very much like telling them to add dioxin to their food.

 

[TomXP411]

alohadave[/url]":mfvubyzh]

Jobe1983[/url]":mfvubyzh]I am starting to think that Win8 is actually what WindowsME was, just a test bed to see what features people would want, and then segway into something more, um, complete (WindowsXP)?.

XP came two versions after ME (ME, 2000, XP).

Actually, Windows 2000 was part of the Windows NT line, which was a parallel product. Windows NT was never meant to compete with Windows 3.x or Windows 9.x.

Windows XP was the first unified product that was meant for both home users and business users; so Windows XP truly was both ME and Windows 2000's successor.

 

[dal20402]

ChefJoe[/url]":1k5lvi9p]What's this windows button you guys have ? I can't find it on my Model M clicky keyboard. Is it next to the any key ?

Say again? I can't hear you over the din that keyboard is making.

 

[Voldenuit]

Cartigan[/url]":2rfmeitt]
Besides, you said "but it wasn't designed for [touch interfaces]" and that is false, false, false. Metro - the first thing you see and what they are actually trying to sell your ass - is designed for touch screens. The up-front UI is 100% designed for touch screen driven systems

So why are some settings metro-accessible and others are only available through the desktop control panel interface (to be fixed with Blue)? Try hitting touch targets in the traditional windows interface with your fingers - it's not fun.

Better yet, tell me how to get to the Power User Menu (Win+X) with just the touchscreen. Because surely one of the first things you'll want to do when you get a new win8 device is to configure it. Not impossible without win+x, but a whole lot more annoying, which pretty much sums up win Windows 8 exeprience so far. Windows 8 can do everything Windows 7 can do, it's just a whole lot more annoying to do so. Like when I had to regedit to be able to launch an explorer window with admin rights so I could delete injection malware from questionable websites that auto-download executables onto your system.

 

[TomXP411]

drfisheye[/url]":1h4souwc]

AreWeThereYeti[/url]":1h4souwc]Give us back the option for hierarchichal drill-down, or GTFO.

No need to shout. The drill-down can be easily added to the taskbar. Just add a toolbar pointing to the start menu folder.

The problem with that is there are TWO different Start folders, and everyone seems to ignore this fact: there is a personal Start folder that contains your custom items, and there is a computer-wide Start folder that contains shared links.

 

[Cartigan]

Voldenuit[/url]":vz4dwd93]

Cartigan[/url]":vz4dwd93]
Besides, you said "but it wasn't designed for [touch interfaces]" and that is false, false, false. Metro - the first thing you see and what they are actually trying to sell your ass - is designed for touch screens. The up-front UI is 100% designed for touch screen driven systems

So why are some settings metro-accessible and others are only available through the desktop control panel interface (to be fixed with Blue)? Try hitting touch targets in the traditional windows interface with your fingers - it's not fun.

Better yet, tell me how to get to the Power User Menu (Win+X) with just the touchscreen. Because surely one of the first things you'll want to do when you get a new win8 device is to configure it. Not impossible without win+x, but a whole lot more annoying, which pretty much sums up win Windows 8 exeprience so far. Windows 8 can do everything Windows 7 can do, it's just a whole lot more annoying to do so. Like when I had to regedit to be able to launch an explorer window with admin rights so I could delete injection malware from questionable websites that auto-download executables onto your system.

I have no idea what you are arguing.

 

[Geminiman]

Windows Surface is what the god damn OS is designed for. Give her a Keyboard and Mouse desktop and Windows 8, see what she says. It's like you are comparing square pegs and round pegs and declaring round pegs best because they fit in round holes while ignoring the fact that square pegs don't fit in round holes at all.
Also, how old is your wife? How has she avoided using computers for the past 20 years?[/quote]

Yes, it's designed for touch, but it works fine with a mouse and keyboard. You just have to get over yourself.

She's 33 years old, used every version of Windows since 95 and (tried) to use Mac OSX, Android and iOS.

 

[TomXP411]

candlesayshi[/url]":3ivq344n]I really find it hard to believe that people are needing to Google how to shutdown Windows 8. I don't actually believe that for one second.

Just sounds too hyperbolic.

Really? I've been a computer professional for 20 years, and I had to look it up.

Swiping in from the sides of the screen to get charms is so completely non-intuitive that it's ridiculous. Controls should always be clearly labeled on the screen, and any swipe or other gesture should be in addition to an always-visible control, not a complete replacement for it.

 

[Cartigan]

Geminiman[/url]":1zw15h8t]
Yes, it's designed for touch, but it works fine with a mouse and keyboard.

But not remotely as well as had it actually been designed for a keyboard/mouse. Sure, I can play golf with a baseball bat, but why should I accept that as a solution?

 

[voskippy]

Remember in the good old days, OS and Apps were all about flexible UI so that you could customize YOUR INTERFACE and YOUR DESKTOP the way you wanted it. Now it's do it "their way" or you're just a cry baby that doesn't "get it".

Like my Burger King Whopper, I want my desktop MY WAY. It's my computer, my apps, and my work habits that are important to me. I don't care what some mystery UI group at MS came up with, I want to do it my way.

Why is that such a hard concept for MS (and other computer vendors) to get?

Put all the features you want in your new release, just let me turn them on or off as I WANT, not as you force me to.

 

[Cartigan]

TomXP411[/url]":86rh8cmp]

candlesayshi[/url]":86rh8cmp]I really find it hard to believe that people are needing to Google how to shutdown Windows 8. I don't actually believe that for one second.

Just sounds too hyperbolic.

Really? I've been a computer professional for 20 years, and I had to look it up.

I ended up using Alt+F4 on the desktop until I installed a start menu replacement

 

[TomXP411]

ChefJoe[/url]":2g9zqc2z]What's this windows button you guys have ? I can't find it on my Model M clicky keyboard. Is it next to the any key ?

Haha... good point. I have a friend who still uses gen-you-eyene IBM clicky clackety keyboards. He even had to buy a USB adapter because his latest motherboard only has USB ports.

No Windows Logo key on that thing.

 

[TomXP411]

Voldenuit[/url]":16cfcidw]

Cartigan[/url]":16cfcidw]
Besides, you said "but it wasn't designed for [touch interfaces]" and that is false, false, false. Metro - the first thing you see and what they are actually trying to sell your ass - is designed for touch screens. The up-front UI is 100% designed for touch screen driven systems

So why are some settings metro-accessible and others are only available through the desktop control panel interface (to be fixed with Blue)? Try hitting touch targets in the traditional windows interface with your fingers - it's not fun.

OMG... setting up user accounts is a hot mess. You have to use the Metro app to create accounts, but it won't edit existing accounts. So you have to switch back to the desktop menu for that - but there's no link to the desktop menu from the Metro app.

I am seriously considering installing WS2003 somewhere and going to Active Directory in my house just because of user and account management.

 

[candlesayshi]

TomXP411[/url]":39n2fuzr]Really? I've been a computer professional for 20 years, and I had to look it up.

You've been a computer professional for 20 years and didn't once think to open Settings?

 

[saru-kun]

There shouldn't even BE "metro" apps. This whole dichotomy is really the core design flaw, all the other design flaws (ex. Lack of start button, full screen start menu, but there are many) are all more or less a direct result of attempting to duct tape the Metro fiasco onto an otherwise decent upgrade to Win7. The sooner they abandon it, the sooner they can move on and start winning people back. Win7 was perhaps the first time ever I got a new Windows and said "Yes, this is good. You've done well, MS". They need to find their way back to whatever state they were in when they wrote Win7, and jumping off the touch-based bandwagon is a necessary first step.

It is probably too late to save Win8, even with Blue. The best they can do is help the users strip as much Metro out of their experience as possible. But if Metro is still around in Win 9...

 

[TomXP411]

candlesayshi[/url]":1hgd9nu7]

TomXP411[/url]":1hgd9nu7]Really? I've been a computer professional for 20 years, and I had to look it up.

You've been a computer professional for 20 years and didn't once think to open Settings?

And how do you open "Settings" from the Windows desktop? Even from within the Start menu, there's no "Settings" button.

Until I looked it up and found out about the hot corners, it didn't even occur to me to hold the mouse in the corner of the screen until something happened. That's just the most insane bit of UI design I've ever seen.

Yes, I've seen apps use "hot corners" in the past, but that's usually screen savers and such; the hot corners either stop the screen saver from starting (useful when playing video) or kick the screen saver in immediately (useful in the Windows 3.x and 9.x days.)

Using hot corners to access a crucial OS component doesn't really make a lot of sense.

And don't even start about the "tutorial" animations during the initial user setup phase. That's also not the place to put critical user information, as most people are off getting a hot (or cold or alcoholic) beverage right about then.

 

[Jobe1983]

alohadave[/url]":eq04yoey]

Jobe1983[/url]":eq04yoey]I am starting to think that Win8 is actually what WindowsME was, just a test bed to see what features people would want, and then segway into something more, um, complete (WindowsXP)?.

XP came two versions after ME (ME, 2000, XP).

windows 2000 was released as a more robust workgroup level OS (direct successor to NT, while using the same kernel) next to Windows ME in the same year. Windows XP came out in 2001 with an improved kernel that was ALOT more stable than those two. I did not group windows 2000 since it was a different animal in the windows family. But since you want to nit-pick, here you go...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o ... ng_systems

 

[WaveRunner]

Peter: I much prefer the term "luddites". Just cause you own a PC and read Ars doesn't exempt you from that classification. "whiners" or "complainants" is too indirect when it comes to the goal of reeducation. These people just refuse to put any effort forward too learn something new. It's the same with the cloud... you mention it and everyone thinks of what could go wrong, even though Amazon and Windows Azure both are ISO 27001 compliant and PCI-Level 1 compliant for multi-tenant hosting. Yet they ignore the fact that nothing they have on premise or anything they do even comes close to meeting that level of security. So reeducating these luddites is hopeless, they're just going to burn down the factory anyways.

 

[TomXP411]

saru-kun[/url]":ddpz1sm7]It is probably too late to save Win8, even with Blue. The best they can do is help the users strip as much Metro out of their experience as possible. But if Metro is still around in Win 9...

My prediction is that it will be there, but there will be a "Metro in a Window" mode. There's already an app for that (literally: http://www.stardock.com/products/modernmix/), and if a third party can do it, then Microsoft can surely implement the same.

 

[Cartigan]

WaveRunner[/url]":3t3i42mr]Peter: I much prefer the term "luddites". Just cause you own a PC and read Ars doesn't exempt you from that classification. "whiners" or "complainants" is too indirect when it comes to the goal of reeducation. These people just refuse to put any effort forward too learn something new. It's the same with the cloud... you mention it and everyone thinks of what could go wrong, even though Amazon and Windows Azure both are ISO 27001 compliant and PCI-Level 1 compliant for multi-tenant hosting. Yet they ignore the fact that nothing they have on premise or anything they do even comes close to meeting that level of security. So reeducating these luddites is hopeless, they're just going to burn down the factory anyways.

Impressive trolling, sir.

 

[TomXP411]

Cartigan[/url]":qpg16fok]Impressive trolling, sir.

Quite.

 

[composer777]

I'm sure the writers at Ars are looking at the comments and pageviews and thinking "Jackpot, we've hit on a formula for generating pageviews." The problem is that many readers such as myself are quickly growing tired of the shallowness of your writing, including editorials that seem to be disingenuous attempts at generating page hits, not an attempt to provide real information or analysis. There are some very real concerns that you didn't address, such as the fact that on larger displays Windows 8 is a step backwards, the problems with unnecessary context switches, the problems with the API changes breaking old applications, and what overall seems to be a vain attempt by Microsoft to sacrifice desktop users to gain traction in the tablet space.

My own thoughts are that Microsoft saw Apple's success and panicked. There was no need for them to be this aggressive, as it's quite likely that the ultra-expensive tablet market will shrink as cheaper Android based alternatives become available. But this is an unfortunate side effect of market economics. Everyone wants to get in on the bubble, and often people get it wrong and predict a level of growth that simply is unsustainable. Sorry MS and Apple, but there isn't an endless supply of people with enough disposable income to drop $500-1000 on a tablet, and then buy a bunch of Apps. Apple has nearly saturated that market segment, and I think utlimately as the fad dies down there will be some backlash and folks will turn to cheaper alternatives like Android tablets. We are quickly getting to the point where most mobile devices are "good enough", and while Microsoft should continue to offer products in this space, their attempt to aggressively enter the space at all costs was a bit stupid, in my opinion, and reeks of desperation.

 

[TomXP411]

composer777[/url]":14onzedk]as cheaper Android based alternatives become available

Actually, it's looking like 10" Windows tablets are becoming price-competitive with 10" Android tablets. My Asus tablet was less than $500 and advertises a 9 hour battery life.

 

[WaveRunner]

TomXP411[/url]":2e7pmkr2]

Cartigan[/url]":2e7pmkr2]Impressive trolling, sir.

Quite.

I'll let the moderators decide that one... thanks.

 

[saru-kun]

TomXP411[/url]":jkemtedr]

saru-kun[/url]":jkemtedr]It is probably too late to save Win8, even with Blue. The best they can do is help the users strip as much Metro out of their experience as possible. But if Metro is still around in Win 9...

My prediction is that it will be there, but there will be a "Metro in a Window" mode. There's already an app for that (literally: http://www.stardock.com/products/modernmix/), and if a third party can do it, then Microsoft can surely implement the same.

That actually looks amazingly useful. Thanks for posting that... Good old Stardock

 

[lugaidster]

firsttimeposter[/url]":11bal18r]

malor[/url]":11bal18r]They're not really bringing back the start button, they're just putting a Windows logo in the corner that starts Metro.

Metro is bad. It is full-out bad for computing. Ars, you are probably very, very dependent on free software, both for your business and your personal lives, and Metro is an existential threat to everything that has made your company and your livelihoods possible. Pushing Metro, telling people to add Microsoft-controlled DRM to their operating systems, is very much like telling them to add dioxin to their food.

Think, for a minute, just how little of the modern Web would even exist if, at every step, someone had been required to ask Microsoft's permission to make their software.

Hyperbole much? Windows is still open. Meanwhile people here and in the press are absolutely giddy with joy that iOS is capturing the consumer computing market from MS. Now THAT would be an absolute disaster for computing. An iOS dominated world where you has have to ask Apple if you can write software. You can still do what you want with Windows.

I agree with you for the most part, but I'd have to remark the word *still* as there are no assurances that the future of Windows is the Desktop (read unwalled-garden) world. I know that this all sounds like I have a tin-foil hat on my head, but I can't help but worry that the future of computing might be closed environments rather than open (don't confuse with closed-source software, couldn't give a rats ass about closed vs open software debate, I think both are an option and always should be). Windows 8 already limits the access to Metro APIs. There are barely any improvements to the Windows API and most development on the OS is done on the Metro side of things.

Note: I'm a developer and I've always liked to tinker with whatever I have at hand and dislike the whole concept of not being able to do what I want with a general computing device. I don't use iOS on principle just because it's a walled garden even though I hate Android to the bones for being such a laggy mess.

 

[siliconaddict]

Just to throw my reiteration into the pot. No. Just no. I will not use 8 in its current form. If they had brought back the option of the Star Menu as a "classic" mode I would have gone out the minute 8.1 was released and purchased 8.0 as a full none upgrade version simply because they listened to its userbase.
Instead I will not touch 8 and frankly I will not buy another laptop unless I can get it without 8. (Picked up a Zenbook last fall, literally a week before they started shipping it with 8.)

What pisses me off the most is that under the hood Windows 8 is a frak'n fantastic OS; easily a worth successor of Windows 7. If it wasn't for the fact that Metro was force fed down people's throats, Microsoft would be crowing right now about how 8 is the best selling OS in its history. Instead we have 8.1 which will do nothing.

 

[Richard Head]

Why not just give people the choice of enabling either a traditional start menu or the new metro start screen? People on laptops and desktops can continue using the start menu, while those on tablets can use metro. Choice is good. Forcing something down peoples' throats they don't necessarily want is not.

 

[TIMMAH!]

MatthiasF[/url]":3v27m6jy]

They don't support POP3 because they don't want you downloading anything to your device. There's this thing called The Cloud trying to be shoved down everyone's throat. Perhaps you've heard of it?

Well this would be a dealbreaker for me as my primary email account is with Time Warner and all they support is POP3. I think it's shortsighted on MS's part to just assume this can go away.