Microsoft should stick to its guns and keep the Start button gone

Op-ed: If Redmond wants Metro apps to succeed, it needs education, not capitulation.

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[drfisheye]

The leaked preview showed that Win+Q will let you search with just a sidebar, not a full screen context switch.

So we have:
- search apps/files/settings without a full screen context switch
- hierarchical app list through an optional taskbar toolbar
- easy access to administrative tools through Win+X or right click on the start button.
- ordering apps by use date (which should function better than Win 7's weird start menu algorithm.)

This should resolve a lot of complaints.

 

[drfisheye]

However, apps can to some extent overcome this, for example by including magnifying glass search icons within the application, to allow users to search without having to know how to invoke the search charm.

Peter, that would be just as inconsistent as having the start button visible sometimes but not always.

I actually prefer a visible magnifying glass. Just like visible share buttons and print buttons, etc. Microsoft went too far with the immersive thing. Calendars and mail apps shouldn't be immersive. They should be functional. Metro is quite functional as a design language, but hiding buttons that you need often shouldn't need an extra click or swipe.

The Windows 8 team should have worked more closely with the Windows Phone team. The Windows Phone team did a better job with not going over the top in 'immersiveness.' On Windows Phone the app bar doesn't need a swipe or click for the most used functions.

 

[drfisheye]

Serious question: in 50/50 mode, can I use charms for the left app?

 

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dal20402[/url]":176eyqwj]

drfisheye[/url]":176eyqwj]The leaked preview showed that Win+Q will let you search with just a sidebar, not a full screen context switch.

Is this actually correct? It's the first I've heard of it. If so, that might make me actually want to upgrade to Windows 8.

The full-screen context switch is the absolute deal breaker for me. The other issues related to the awkward integration of Metro and desktop are annoying, but I can live with them.

Here's a picture of searching apps without context switch:

It's a leak, so not sure if it will stay.

 

[drfisheye]

dfiler[/url]":g708fkkf]My pet peeve is that the GUI no longer indicates functionality via the physical appearance of interface elements. There is absolutely no distinction between clickable or draggable regions and non-interactive regions. And that's just one of a hundred different concrete examples of exactly why I consider windows 8 to be the biggest blunder in microsoft history. Yes, even worse than vista.

Clickable icons have a cricle. Easy. Please give some examples of where you don't understand where you can click in metro apps. And give some counter examples where the old desktop does make it clear where you can click. Icons looking like huge fat buttons haven't been around since Windows 3.1.

 

[drfisheye]

DexterTheCat[/url]":nmfwsc6b]Anecdotal comments from a Windows 8 user (on 2 computers at home):

- I don't miss the Start menu
- But I don't spend a lot of time in Metro or using Metro apps either (hmmm, if I had to make up a percentage, I would say I spend 0.0009% of time in Metro, the rest in desktop mode)
- This thing about closing off an open system and locking out small developers is garbage. When I look for software, I start with my browser, not the MS app store. Metro Explorer or Desktop Explorer, 'download.com' is still the same either way
- The hot corners do take a bit of a learning curve, but its an EASY curve... but less complicated than gesture controls. Gesture controls tend to be device or software specific, which means commands are not the same across all devices. Hot corners, you got 4 chances to get it right or wrong... and the corners don't change which means once you realize "the lower left is ALWAYS Start and the charms are on the right", you've graduated. Although the argument here would be that gesture controls are optional
- Another example of learning curve: For the longest time I didn't know how to close Metro apps. I always switched back to Desktop and closed out the running apps from there with a right click in the upper left corner. Then I learned about 'grabbing' the top of the frame and yanking down to close an app. Is it stupid that was not apparent to begin with? Sure. Is it a travesty now that I know? Not at all. Now its 2nd nature
- At the same time, none of my Win 8 habits come to me while using Win 7, XP or a non-Windows OS. I don't find myself trying to close apps with the swipe down method in Win 7. If Win 8 truly assimilated me, I would think I'd make thoughtless mistakes more often

I see both sides of the argument really, but both sides are also coming strong with a lot hyperbole for no qualified reason. Is Win8 the greatest thing in computing? No. Is it the worst? Definitely not.

I agree with most of your points. The hate for Windows 8 is over the top.

But why do you feel the need to close metro apps? They are suspended when not in view and purged out of memory when the system needs the memory. So apps shouldn't hurt performance and don't normally need to be closed. (Another thing that MS doesn't explain to users.)

 

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Cartigan[/url]":303bshoo]No one needs education to use the parts of Win 8 that have been standardized for years.

No one? Try working on a helpdesk and you'll learn that the desktop feels like an absolute mess for lots of users. The iPad feels liberating for them. Metro is intended to make life easier for those people as well. (Not sure if it does, but this is the idea.)

 

[drfisheye]

Cartigan[/url]":209bwp9k]

drfisheye[/url]":209bwp9k]

Cartigan[/url]":209bwp9k]No one needs education to use the parts of Win 8 that have been standardized for years.

No one? Try working on a helpdesk and you'll learn that the desktop feels like an absolute mess for lots of users. The iPad feels liberating for them.

I'm generalizing here. The conversation was clearly about the Metro apps of Win 8 (it's most defining feature) and "education" needed to teach people it wasn't designed solely for touch interfaces. Then he goes and spins a tale about how the backend of Win 8 is just the same as it ever was!

Ok.

I don't think Metro was purely designed for touch; it was designed for both keyboard, mouse and touch. However I think they screwed up the mouse part by introducing hidden bars and strange mouse gestures. This is somewhat resolved with touch mice and extra buttons, but of course most of us don't have those. They didn't need to introduce these hidden bars and gestures. iOS doesn't generally hide app bars or charms.

 

[drfisheye]

VideoGameTech[/url]":2thiy8cw]
I want my computer to boot to the desktop.

That's in 8.1.

I want my photo viewer to show the photo not take up the entire screen.

Default apps are configurable.

I want to switch apps easily. I want to layer my apps and collaborate between them.

No one forces you to run metro apps or even install them. If you stick to desktop apps, nothing changed here.

I want my Start menu because it works well and fits this style.

If the new search-in-sidebar isn't enough for you then I guess you'll need to install Start8 or something. Ok, that's a one time 10$ investment for the coming years. Can't help you there.

That is why I do not like Windows 8 and why it is a huge step backwards in usability from Windows 7.

Where is the huge step? Are you really using the start menu that much? Almost every other thing is still the same or better as in Windows 7. IMO it is a tiny step. Not a huge one. Where is the handy Win+X menu in Window 7?

 

[drfisheye]

AreWeThereYeti[/url]":d235j4vk]Give us back the option for hierarchichal drill-down, or GTFO.

No need to shout. The drill-down can be easily added to the taskbar. Just add a toolbar pointing to the start menu folder.

 

[drfisheye]

candlesayshi[/url]":14jsntw6]

zer0x1A4[/url]":14jsntw6]Hey remember when you were able to go directly from a working directory in Windows to the Command Prompt in that same directory? Ya know - way back in Windows 7, where all you needed to do was hold shift + right-click in that folder and there you had a simple option to "open command window here"? ... yep that's gone in Windows 8 as well

Aw... I do remember that... because it's still in Windows 8.

Indeed. And File > Open Command Prompt also works. Or Alt+F > P.

Edit: oh, and you can even add the Open Command Prompt icon to the quick access toolbar on top, saving you one click. Something you couldn't do in Win 7. So the property is more accessible, easier to find and more efficient than Win 7. But lets just hate Win 8 anyway.

 

[drfisheye]

alohadave[/url]":3r8xgw8k]

scotts13[/url]":3r8xgw8k]Of course, you need to be able to do this. I've given up on getting Windows back to the Win 2000 interface.

Heh, for a long time I changed all my XP computers to 2000 style menus, but after a long time, I've found that the XP menu works pretty well when you get used to it.

Here's the big problem for me, and it's the same reason why I didn't look that seriously at OSX last year (when I was thinking of getting a new laptop), lack of customizability. In OSX, you have 2 color schemes, blue or grey. Without buying a third party package, you cannot customize the desktop to look like you want. Fine, Windows lets me do that.

Fast forward to November when I buy a new laptop with Win8. A couple of themes, but no real control over the desktop. No, individual control over color selections that have been possible since Win3.1. Not even any of the classic themes.

Windows 7 is the same as Windows 8 in this regard. You can select a theme (out of a large gallery), a background and a color. That's it for both of them. Or you go back to the basic Windows 95 like theme, then you can select more

 

[drfisheye]

superslav223[/url]":29o3exi4]Sticking with Windows 7 would have made them more money and without putting further strains on their relationship with business customers.

So MS would have sold more than 100M copies of Windows 7 in the last 6 months if they hadn't released Windows 8? Everyone would have wanted PCs instead of iPads?

Edit: fixed typo. Still confusing then / than....

 

[drfisheye]

Zorro[/url]":2fv3o75z]Fact 3: I haven't upgraded my Laptop from Windows XP because Windows 8 is all I can buy.

You prefer XP over Windows 8 even though Windows 8 has 99% the functionality if Windows 7? How do you search an app in XP? Oh that's right, you can't.

 

[drfisheye]

Evilsushi[/url]":2xym2ypm]I think, I am starting to understand the Hate of windows 8.
5) full screen UI ( personal choice) personally I work full screen or 50/50 pretty much 100% of the time so this doesn't actually bother me at all. I have a 30" and 24" monitor and I want to use every inch of it for the program I'm in (typically Visual Studio) not looking at partial windows or the pretty picture on my desktop. The 50/50 split solves any of my previous complaints here.

Around me in the office I do indeed see most people maximizing everything. But smaller windows have merit, even when overlapping, because you can just click on a part of a window to bring it up again. That's very intuitive and fast.

6)Hot corners confusing hard to find (lack of education).

That's not the problem. The problem is they are not efficient, why do we need a weird mouse gesture to get to important functionality?

8)Touch UI on desktop (Lack of education) there is nothing touch only or specific on Metro. I have multiple monitor desktop (non touch), 17" laptop (non touch), and a tablet (touch) and I get around fine on all three and I use a mix of modern and legacy on all three.

Having to right click before you can see the app bar makes it inefficient for mouse use. The important icons should be visible at all times.

11)Track pad gestures too sensitive (no one actually complained about this one this is my personal experience)

They certainly are on my laptop. I hope new laptops have a better implementation, but older laptops weren't designed for the new gestures. So I switched the gestures off. Leaving me with weird mouse gestures or right clicking to activate the side bars. If a website in IE takes over right clicking, I can't even access the app bar anymore with the mouse.

13)Hidden GUI controls (Lack of education) while the controls are hidden they are very consistent, Left side is OS level navigation, Right side is the Charm bar, which includes Search (In app or System Wide), Share (send to email, facebook, onenote, Txt msg, Other apps) Windows (takes you to start screen), Devices (Printing, external device) Settings (In app settings or System Settings). Top is in app navigation, bottom is contextual menu for current screen.

I don't know when and what I can search. What does the search charm do in IE? Does it search in the page or on the web? When can I share something? Etc. MS could have left out the charms all together, instead putting the icons in the app or app bar when appropriate. The sharing mechanism itself could have stayed the same. That would also solve the 50/50 problem: how do I use the charms for the left window?

Overall, I think Peter is right, Microsoft's biggest problem is they did a poor job of educating the consumer.

They did do a poor job in education but also in app design. They went all out in immersiveness, instead of an efficient functional design.

I found the people that hate 8 are MOSTLY because they don't know how to do anything because so much of the UI is hidden (but logical and consistent).

Looking to the comments, most people complain about the start menu. And also about having two largely incompatible app paradigms in one OS. I think MS had other options to solve the tablet and touch problem. And without metro Office apps, it is clear that even MS doesn't know how to bring productivity to metro.

Steve Balmer two years ago said he had made the most difficult decision on Windows in his life. We now know what that decision was: creating two different app paradigms instead of working on a touch/tablet-mode for the desktop. The Windows team and Office team each choose a different route. Both with currently immature implementations.