Unsealed messages add wrinkle to trial after US agreed to settle with Live Nation.
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Live Nation director boasted of gouging ticket buyers, “robbing them blind”
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Annnnnd that's why years ago I decided I would only go to shows if I can buy the tickets directly from the box office. If the tickets are only sold online through LN/TM then I don't need to see it.
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To quote Heathers, LiveNation/TM can go get effed gently with a chainsaw.
A few years ago, I was trying to get a good ticket to a show. I looked online and there were two open seats right next to each other in a good location; one was an original sale via TM and the other was a resale ticket also listed on TM -- at twice the price of the available TM ticket. I tried to buy the cheaper non-resale ticket but TM woudln't allow it, stated that I couldn't leave a single seat unoccupied between two other seats. After trial an error, however, I found that it would let me buy JUST the resale ticket -- at twice the price (and twice the TM fees) -- while still leaving a single (cheaper) seat unoccupied. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why their own system was allowing that policy violation to happen.
"Artist powered; fan driven" my shiny metal keister. Artist-powered would have prioritized selling the fully unsold ticket first thereby ensuring the artist got their money for the otherwise unsold seat; and fan driven would have not forced a single fan to buy extra tickets just to get a good seat. True fans only come in pairs I guess is their suggestion.
A few years ago, I was trying to get a good ticket to a show. I looked online and there were two open seats right next to each other in a good location; one was an original sale via TM and the other was a resale ticket also listed on TM -- at twice the price of the available TM ticket. I tried to buy the cheaper non-resale ticket but TM woudln't allow it, stated that I couldn't leave a single seat unoccupied between two other seats. After trial an error, however, I found that it would let me buy JUST the resale ticket -- at twice the price (and twice the TM fees) -- while still leaving a single (cheaper) seat unoccupied. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why their own system was allowing that policy violation to happen.
"Artist powered; fan driven" my shiny metal keister. Artist-powered would have prioritized selling the fully unsold ticket first thereby ensuring the artist got their money for the otherwise unsold seat; and fan driven would have not forced a single fan to buy extra tickets just to get a good seat. True fans only come in pairs I guess is their suggestion.
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I'm reminded of the courtroom scene in Liar, Liar:
Fletcher Reede: Your Honor, I object!
Judge: On what grounds?
Reede: Because it's devastating to my case!
Fletcher Reede: Your Honor, I object!
Judge: On what grounds?
Reede: Because it's devastating to my case!
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We live in a time when the Kenneth Lays and Jeffrey Skillings of the world not only rule corporations, but hold positions as government officials.
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I don't understand how there's any doubt this monopoly should be broken up. It's actively damaging both fans and artists. Artists are already being thumped by the current awful returns on streaming services. If they are unable to make money on live performances, the result is simply that over time people will not do this as a career.
Only people of independent means who can afford to not be paid will do it.
And so yet another area of human culture ends up being the domain of rich amateurs.
Only people of independent means who can afford to not be paid will do it.
And so yet another area of human culture ends up being the domain of rich amateurs.
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On the one hand - Procedurally Live Nation's lawyers at least have to try to have the evidence excluded. While played for humor, the Liar Liar scene has some truth to it -- Lawyer's are obligated to try and support their client (within the bounds of the law and ethics).
However, the response should be: Slack chats admitted into evidence, you're welcome to try and prove they Do Not represent the business practices of Live Nation.
We all know that these chats clearly show the exact business practices of Live Nation. Personally I hope they burn... but I was prejudiced before this information ever became public.
However, the response should be: Slack chats admitted into evidence, you're welcome to try and prove they Do Not represent the business practices of Live Nation.
We all know that these chats clearly show the exact business practices of Live Nation. Personally I hope they burn... but I was prejudiced before this information ever became public.
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MilanKraft
Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
100%. Also, I love how with a straight face presumably, LN calls one of their regional directors, a guy who literally has some control over the amount and kind of fees being used to abuse customers, is a "junior staffer". They don't make an LOL big enough. This guy is anything but some garden variety line worker. I guess in their mind, anyone not c suite is "junior level". Disingenuous scumbags, the lot of 'em.
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Enough is enough. IMHO ticket sales need to be given back to the event locations where the shows are being held... and locals should be able to walk up and buy good tickets from a ticket window or office.
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A light that they, themselves switched on...
Eh, whaaaat? "Your Honor, we'd also like to request that no one gets to ask our employees any questions either as that could also be detrimental to our case!"
But also...they didn't have authority to affect consumers, it was all just bro talk!
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This is what permanent aristocracy actually looks like, and puts paid to the notion of noblesse oblige. The sociopathic broligarchy truly are convinced they're better than "regular" people and that therefore it's absolutely fine to use us as cattle and mules for their ever more rapacious greed engines. The "Just Us" department likely genuinely believes LN/TM did nothing wrong. Wealth is, after all, just the natural right of the billionaire class.
Welcome to the new class war. It's gonna be a rough one.
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There's a fundamental difference here that i think you're missing. Past convictions for unrelated cases can be genuinely prejudicial, but these chats go directly to the behavior of Live Nation that is currently at issue. They're direct evidence of collusion and price gouging.
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You have a VIP pass! To a for-profit penitentiary. Parking passes are 47.35 per day plus applicable fees…
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Lawyer here: not that simple. I don't know, obviously, what the complaint alleges overall but let's say it is about LN's Corporate CEO/Staff planning this. The SLACK messages of two lesser employees may not be relevant. Here is the applicable Federal Rule: RULE 401
Evidence is relevant if:
(a) it has any tendency to make a fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence; and
(b) the fact is of consequence in determining the action.
HOWEVER, just because something is relevant does not automatically make it admissible. It may be too prejudicial for example- from the Notes on the Rule: Exclusion for risk of unfair prejudice, confusion of issues, misleading the jury, or waste of time, all find ample support in the authorities. “Unfair prejudice” within its context means an undue tendency to suggest decision on an improper basis, commonly, though not necessarily, an emotional one.
It is a balancing test.
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These assholes have been ripping us off since I was in Highschool - and I graduated in 1976. The merged company was just more of the same.
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Fair enough. Certainly, providing truthful, fair information to the jury so that they can make an accurate determination of guilt is paramount. But I would also point out that calling these guys lesser employees might be stretching things a bit. Both of the men in question were regional managers of very large sections of the venue business at the time of the chats and are both in upper management as of now. They may have been far-enough removed from the corporate structure for their chats to not be relevant to this case, but so far it doesn't sound like that's what the LN legal team are alleging. We'll of course have to wait and see, but from the facts reported so far it seems far-fetched to me that the judge would grant their petition.
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I partly blame consumers here - particularly, slightly more affluent customers who have disposable income, and aren't willing to put their foot down on price gouging, because they can afford it, which drives up prices for EVERYONE.
The thing is, concerts, comedy shows, and the like, aren't necessities. People could just stop doing business with Live Nation, and nobody would starve to death. Yes, it would hurt the bands, comedians - unless they also switch to using a competing service. Which, I think is difficult because I think Live Nation locked up access to venues, so that if you want a venue for your event, you kind of have to do business with them. But maybe what this means is live acts need to all take a break, and embargo live nation for 6 months or a year, to break the monopoly.
Which will be easy for them to do if nobody is buying tickets to their shows anyhow.
The thing is, concerts, comedy shows, and the like, aren't necessities. People could just stop doing business with Live Nation, and nobody would starve to death. Yes, it would hurt the bands, comedians - unless they also switch to using a competing service. Which, I think is difficult because I think Live Nation locked up access to venues, so that if you want a venue for your event, you kind of have to do business with them. But maybe what this means is live acts need to all take a break, and embargo live nation for 6 months or a year, to break the monopoly.
Which will be easy for them to do if nobody is buying tickets to their shows anyhow.
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So your solution to "slightly more affluent customers who have disposable income" plus Live Nation price gouging is for all people in showbiz in America to quit working for 6 months? Are you gonna help pay for their food and rent?
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This should be “Live Nation filed their motion to exclude the evidence”, right?
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Emphasis added by me in your comment... Just Us... that's brilliantly funny. Bravo.
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WHEN (not if) we get our power back, we have to punish the companies that cooperated with this fascist regime. We also have to redo all decisions made by the fascist regime
Companies that took advantage of the corruption like Live Nation is doing here have to be given foundation-shaking fines
This will discourage them from cooperating with fascists if anything like this ever happens again
Companies that took advantage of the corruption like Live Nation is doing here have to be given foundation-shaking fines
This will discourage them from cooperating with fascists if anything like this ever happens again
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It’s not just that. Donald Trump told these people he’d fight for them. Democrats have largely ignored them or at least failed to pass legislation to improve their lives
There’s a reason a lot of people voted for Obama, then Trump. They wanted change. But the democrats were either unable or unwilling to change things significantly enough. Yes, that has a lot to do with losing the midterms in Obama’s first term
I’m not saying these people thought things through. I’m just saying, there’s more to the story
A populist Democrat who actually follows through will be a much more likely success than an establishment centrist
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Let me ask you something - do you really want prices to be fair and regulated, like some kind of damn commie country?!
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Hell, I'm just glad that I never sunk down to junior staffer level at any point in my career. The pay bump would have been nice, but I got to keep my soul, y'know?
But thanks for the reminder to hide the chocolate before I read the rest of the headlines.
And I swear, as an aside, there shouldn't be three stories in a week that bring the phrase "How many lights are there?" to the front of my mind, but every single goofy day? Feh.
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I'd suggest that Ars trusted its readership to connect the dots (which were spaced very closely), and you've shown that this trust was not misplaced. Yes, everyone here's head exploded on reading that.
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First, not EVERYONE who would like to go to a show, is necessarily "slightly more affluent customers" - but Live Nation's price gouging is likely pricing out less affluent customers with less disposable income, who might buy tickets to such shows sans Live Nation gouging.
As for, "Are you gonna help pay for their food and rent?"
Well, the alternative is the status quo of price gouging. The other end of such an embargo may well be more income to the acts themselves, so maybe they should think of this as a long-term investment.
I also think most such acts, are people with enough wealth they don't need that much help getting through 6 months without work. Yes, I acknowledge that there will likely be some, smaller acts, for whom this is not true. Maybe they can seek alternate incomes to bridge the gap. What I'm proposing is a strike, and "how to survive through the strike" has always been a challenge, and people have come up with various answers.
In some cases, an organization like a union or association, can provide temporary income to the strikers. In other cases, maybe they go work a side hustle for a few months.
For entertainers, maybe they go busk in the park, or setup shows at non-live nation venues, like county fairgrounds, school football fields, etc (weather permitting, of course).
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Moreover, direct abuse of a de facto monopoly to affect market conditions in other areas.
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Not at all! The statement "the messages aren’t reflective of the company’s general operation" is literally true. They are the company's general operation, not just some image of it. They promote people who do this shit.
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It's breathtaking sometimes what the jury isn't allowed to hear.
Like, oh, that the defendant committed this armed robbery while he was out on bail for another armed robbery, that he was convicted of.
That was a whiplash moment, let me tell you. Would it have prejudiced us? Even without that information, we went into the jury room, first vote right off, unanimous, guilty. Yes, we took time to make sure we were sure about this, but we were convinced. I mean, it's a Big Deal, convicting someone of a crime. Didn't like it, but dammit.
It wasn't until sentencing that we found out about the other robbery. We were all like, "what!?"
And, by the way, you really don't want to go and do independent research. It pisses off the judge, which is something you never want to do, and it will probably result in a mis-trial.
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One would hope that after 70 years you would have enough wisdom to realize that making pointless attacks on people on the internet is an expelling of negative energy that adds nothing to the world.
But I firmly believe you're never too old to learn.
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Welcome to capitalism baby! Isn’t this so much better than communism? These executives are halfway there, they exhibit no class (a true classless society). Doubt they earn their wages either, and I’d go so far as to say the proletariats put in more work than these fucks.
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