LG says it'll let people delete the Copilot icon. But TV chatbots aren't going away.
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LG TVs’ unremovable Copilot shortcut is the least of smart TVs’ AI problems
- Thread starter JournalBot
- Start date
What's really pissed me off is that copilot has apparently replaced Microsoft 365s interface for my Android. And as a result finding any of my files or making new word documents or Excel files on my Android is a nightmare suddenly. It is infuriating. Unfortunately if you're a heavy user of Excel nobody offers anything comparable to Excel. Open office, libre office, Google apps or whatever sheets are not comparable to Excel probably the closest thing is air table?
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Currently I’m driving my Smart TV at home as external display for my Legion Go. Never looking back.
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"LG’s spokesperson said the company added the shortcut icon to enhance customer accessibility and convenience." All spying, data gathering and inshitification is only being done to benefit the customer. That is always the case, according to marketing goons and company apologists.
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How can one solve the problem without following breadcrumbs.
His suggestion was not "nonsense" it was just factually not correct. If you are trying to find a data leak and you wholly dismiss the HDMI connection who is performing malpractice here?
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I think you missed my point: even if the TV is searching for a network connection using the HDMI ethernet connection the streaming box (ie the AppleTV, firestick, roku, etc) has to be set up to route traffic from that connection, and none are to my knowledge. None of them function as a router for that connection.
On the other hand thread border routers do route internet bound traffic from the mesh and usually dont include firewall management that could block egress from the mesh, leaving you to figure out what to filter coming from a device that in most cases you dont want to block from the internet completely. And of course a TV with a cell or sat connection can bypass your network controls entirely.
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My biggest issue with all this isn't that they added the icon, it's that they insult our intelligence with statements like this. The much more likely reason is that Microsoft paid them to add it. I'm not saying I'm happy about that, but I'm much more willing to accept it than the bullshit reason they provided. Honestly, I can't even remember the last time I used the LG interface though, so I didn't even notice it.
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I feel extra-justified in treating my modern (LG) TV as a dumb display without its own network connection. It only gets network when there's a useful-looking update. Even if it does eventually become infested with slop due to wanting (for example) one of the periodic upscaler improvements, it's going to have a hard time phoning home to any form of Slop Central(tm).
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We've done that since TVs started becoming smart.
But the day is coming when TVs will have cellular capability. Maybe not for program streaming (due to the obvious impracticality of that) but certainly for various telemetry, downloading advertising, and facilitating the eventual integration of HDMI input along with the TV's OS in some futuristic fusion hellscape.
Hopefully there will be a company offering a truly offline TV even if a pricey premium.
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These days, you'd be using e-sims for something on the scale of LG's TV business.
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I don't get this mindset. How is it the consumer's fault? They (we) just want a TV, something that people have been buying since the 50s.
Don't you really think it's the companies shoehorning all of this tech into the tv and not giving a choice about it who are to blame?
On a personal note, I find all this stuff really depressing. I just want a tv that won't spy on me. And a computer that won't spy on me. And a phone. And a fridge for gods sake.
It's getting quite out of control.
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I keep hearing this stuff about "subsidies" and I just don't believe it. You can't move that kind of product volume across international borders, selling it below cost, without running afoul of the kind of anti-dumping laws that get your VPs subpoenaed by courts in 17 different countries at once.
Commerical signage displays are more expensive because that market is less sensitive to upfront cost and more sensitive to consistency, support, and reliability.
Everyone makes decent margins on all of this stuff. The upfront margins are just fatter on the "commercial" ones, while the "consumer" ones have features that they hope will yield recurring high-margin revenue for a few years until the thing dies and gets replaced.
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Yeah, I think it's already happened.
My Sony A95k displayed a message a couple months ago asking me to download a firmware update. This TV was not connected to the internet, and has only been connected for about 10 minutes of the 2.5+ years I've had it. (Firmware update for a specific problem I had.)
It was connected to a Roku that is connected to the internet. I deleted the picture of the message, but calling home through HDMI is the only explanation I have.
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This is why I go with PC monitors as TVs. A couple models get very big, but not nearly the 75" behemoths some people may be used to, so admittedly it's not an option for everyone.
Of course, I recommend never getting the device online, but part of the issue is some of these devices are set up to automatically sign in to ANY open wifi they can find. You may secure your wifi with a code, but does your neighbor? Can you guarantee someone won't bring in an unsecured hotspot of a cell phone by mistake one day? That's what they're counting on.
I have no need for any smart features whatsoever on my TV. I have game consoles, I have a PC, and many people have their own "set top boxes" from cable boxes with built in apps like Netflix to Google, Amazon, and Apple snappy TV devices. There's a market for those features for a significant number of households, but not as implemented.
There's mention of how this "subsidizes" the cost... I'd like to see some real numbers on that. My suspicion is that the devices can still be produced at affordable pricing but they simply prefer to charge higher whenever they can get away with it. The reality is... when they don't even put the OPTION for a dumb TV on the shelves any more, we don't have a ready comparison point at present.
Of course, I recommend never getting the device online, but part of the issue is some of these devices are set up to automatically sign in to ANY open wifi they can find. You may secure your wifi with a code, but does your neighbor? Can you guarantee someone won't bring in an unsecured hotspot of a cell phone by mistake one day? That's what they're counting on.
I have no need for any smart features whatsoever on my TV. I have game consoles, I have a PC, and many people have their own "set top boxes" from cable boxes with built in apps like Netflix to Google, Amazon, and Apple snappy TV devices. There's a market for those features for a significant number of households, but not as implemented.
There's mention of how this "subsidizes" the cost... I'd like to see some real numbers on that. My suspicion is that the devices can still be produced at affordable pricing but they simply prefer to charge higher whenever they can get away with it. The reality is... when they don't even put the OPTION for a dumb TV on the shelves any more, we don't have a ready comparison point at present.
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And yet another reason I will never buy a smart TV. I currently have 3 TVs, two of which the previous owners left in the house when they moved out. All are around 12-15 years old. All are dumb as a scack of hammers.
The wife and I have decided that as those TVs die they will not be replaced. The one in the basement and the one in the guest room are almost never used. The one in the family room is on for maybe half an hour a day if the kids have earned enough screen time to watch something. Sometimes longer on a Friday or Saturday if we have a family movie night. But it's nothing we can't live without.
Some will say "just don't connect it to the Internet" and to them I say: No, I'm not playing their stupid little games with them crippling features or adding nag screens if it's not connected. I can only imagine that at some point they will come with a secret esim preloaded that can't be disabled or, as previous posters mentioned, possibly piggybacking on the HDMI cable to surreptitiously access the Internet? Fuck that. Watching TV just doesn't mean that much to us. Other than kids shows, I haven't seen anything new in many years because I just don't care.
The wife and I have decided that as those TVs die they will not be replaced. The one in the basement and the one in the guest room are almost never used. The one in the family room is on for maybe half an hour a day if the kids have earned enough screen time to watch something. Sometimes longer on a Friday or Saturday if we have a family movie night. But it's nothing we can't live without.
Some will say "just don't connect it to the Internet" and to them I say: No, I'm not playing their stupid little games with them crippling features or adding nag screens if it's not connected. I can only imagine that at some point they will come with a secret esim preloaded that can't be disabled or, as previous posters mentioned, possibly piggybacking on the HDMI cable to surreptitiously access the Internet? Fuck that. Watching TV just doesn't mean that much to us. Other than kids shows, I haven't seen anything new in many years because I just don't care.
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One of my neighbors was throwing out his dumb 55” plasma TV several years ago. I asked him why and he said that it clicked loudly when turning it on and it no longer worked.
I offered to fix it for him, at the time not knowing what was wrong with it, and he gave it to me since he had already purchased a new one. I replaced a single capacitor on it and have been loving the TV since.
tldr; you may find something that someone is tossing or inexpensively selling
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Compare to what computer monitors the same size cost. Computer monitors are just TVs without the tuner and "smart" bits -- they're actually simpler, yet they cost more. Why do you think that is?
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Nah. The US doesn't enforce antitrust laws anymore. The EU does, but only against the US, and the US doesn't make TVs.
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The sad part about all this is that TV makers put so much effort into voice assistants and AI chatbots that people hate, but they won't add support for full voice control like Dragon Naturally Speaking. People with severe mobility-loss are still excluded or face major difficulties using smart TVs. Smart hey?
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Computer monitors are meant to be viewed closer so they have much higher pixel density. Backlight LEDs are packed closer together. Refresh rate is higher.
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For the most part our AppleTV has kept major shenanigans atr bay even when not paying for the AppleTv streaming.
If only I can find some dumb TVs with a great image to hook it up to. Any chance for some editors choice dumb TVs?
If only I can find some dumb TVs with a great image to hook it up to. Any chance for some editors choice dumb TVs?
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People know that if they don’t, they can’t watch Netflix.
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When something like this happens, I suspect that there will be a big story on Ars about it. Until then, I'm just not going to worry about it.
Your righteous stand against a product doesn't mean much if you don't want a product in that category anyway.
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Hate to break it to you, but there is no logical way "Chris De Maria" is not a chat bot.
I can find "pictures" of Chris De Maria on Instagram and LinkedIn, but they look almost identical to the output from AI for "realistic photo of Mr Clean."
There is more proof this is not a real person.
On Instagram, the quote associated with the "De Maria" is:
Time wasted trying to delete is logically less time spent with family and friends. Only a chatbot could think this quote could be consistent.
On LinkedIn, the "De Maria" reposts:
My personal expression is that I get to add and delete Smart TV apps to fit my personal needs. A human would understand that. A ChatBot has hallucinations as to what my "personal expression" would be instead much like the "De Maria" chatbot.
According to "his" LinkedIn, "he" has 19 years of experience in consumer electronics PR.
How does anyone claim this and have learned nothing from the Xbox One backlash?? Microsoft had to admit that making Kinect/Cortana mandatory was a really bad idea. As consumers, we already spoke on this issue loud and clear.
A human would have learned from the mistake and not try to force Cortana 2.0 rebranded as "Co-pilot" on customers.
What is even worse is the "De Maria" seems to be talking like this is an isolated issue and finally someday being able to delete this one forced app will somehow make things right.
WebOS has been Open Source. Anyone could help contribute to the project. That is really empowering.
What LG has selected to do is make it clear regardless of the TV running webOS and regardless of how much the owner $$paid$$ LG, the updates to the firmware exist for the purpose of LG's needs.
"De Maria" will never promise that forced app installs will never happen again because a chatbot can't understand the horrific level of betrayal this action is. The concept this terminates trust of the consumer in LG is not something a chatbot can calculate. It simply does not compute.
The "De Maria" doesn't exist to restore that empowerment. We will not be given documentation on how to install our own open source ROMs on a LG TV in the future. "He" doesn't want to restore trust. It will only throw out sound bites of PR spin.
You will never see the "De Maria" sit down for an interview with Ars Technical "in person" and talk in a way that empathizes with the consumer perspective.
... and that is why you can never trust LG again.
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I just Bought an Oled 77 LG TV. The experience is just horrid.
-> I can't find the source button on the remote, I need to go to the internal ThinkQ application just to changes sources between my PS5 and XBOX.
I'm appalled at this, I don't know what to do to be honest. I have an apple TV for the rest, but not being able to switch between sources has been a nightmare using this TV.
I have 4 other oleds across the house, none of them have that. The best of them is a CX from 2020 that has the least shit in it.
-> I can't find the source button on the remote, I need to go to the internal ThinkQ application just to changes sources between my PS5 and XBOX.
I'm appalled at this, I don't know what to do to be honest. I have an apple TV for the rest, but not being able to switch between sources has been a nightmare using this TV.
I have 4 other oleds across the house, none of them have that. The best of them is a CX from 2020 that has the least shit in it.
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Not surprising but still awful!
I believe that Microsoft will get a big backlash trying to force Copilot everywhere.
I believe that Microsoft will get a big backlash trying to force Copilot everywhere.
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No. You still missed it! The correct response is supposed to be:
"shut up and PAY FOR IT!" Duh.
Oh, and, dont' be afraid to be a little enthuistastic about it too. Helps the cattle stay calm. We sure dont want anything weighing down stock prices now do we? Thanks.
The enshitification will continue until until we collectively stop it.
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I have a 48" LG that I use for my computer monitor. After seeing this article, I checked my LG's settings and found a note that there was an upgrade available and it would install AI services. With that confirmation, I went directly to the wifi settings and deleted the connection and disabled wifi. The screen is working fine so no more updates will be needed.....
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Oh, but they will allow you to remove the icon. But not the application itself that will start/run everytime you turn the TV on.
Removing an icon does nothing towards dumping the skynet shitware itself and most people don't understand this.
Removing an icon does nothing towards dumping the skynet shitware itself and most people don't understand this.
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This pops up in every thread about smart TVs, and like every time I'm waiting for some recommendations for commercial signage displays with equivalent feature sets to current high-end TVs, and like always there will be none, because they don't exist.
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This is why my TV is no longer connected to the network. I don't care what apps it comes with. I'll use AppleTV or my laptop's HDMI connector.
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I remember years ago MS got a slap on the wrist because they had a button to turn off some privacy invading feature but the button was purely cosmetic and didn't do anything. Like it was literally a simple graphic icon that said "off" when you switched it to the off position but wasn't connected to anything in the system.
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Maybe that’s the new trend. I have an LG OLED from like 2018 in my bedroom, it has a big source button dead middle of the remote. I bought a large cheap Hisense for the living room last year from Costco, no source button, have to like double tap settings or something to get an input selector.
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If I could still get a dumb TV for a reasonable price I would have less of an issue with buying a new one, like I said, we still have family movie nights once and awhile and I still haul out the old consoles to do "retro" gaming with the kids. But I'm not willing to jump through hoops to use a cripped device because I refused to be treated like garbage and spied on by the manufacturer.
If you're willing to put up with that for your entertainment that's your choice, for me, the camel's back was already broken when the expectation became that I have my TV connected to the Internet and shit like this just keep piling on more straws.
Edit: typo
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I'm not a hardware guy, I would have no clue how to track down a blown capacitor, also you've never seen how terrible I am with a soldering iron.
If after I've gone through the ones that I have and it happened by chance that I could get a working, used, dumb TV for cheap then maybe, but I won't be going out of my way to track one down.
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I would argue against your Monitor argument. Monitors often use inferior components than TV and deliberately skimp on basic things like 10 point or even 2 point color calibration and more often than not only offer color space options behind a profile that can't be adjusted at all.
Monitors only cost what the market will bear and all. They sell less than TVs per model and the truly expensive ones are for professional use and are better made. You can't look at the average monitor and say it's made better than your avg TV due to the cost. That ain't it.
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You will be able to delete the icon, but the camera, the mic, and the spying are forever.
I told my partner that when we need to replace our TV it’s going to be difficult because it’s getting harder and harder to find TVs that aren’t ‘smart’.
I told my partner that when we need to replace our TV it’s going to be difficult because it’s getting harder and harder to find TVs that aren’t ‘smart’.
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