Judge gives Volkswagen one more month to find a fix for polluting diesel cars

Judge says “substantial progress" in negotiations made him lenient on deadline.

Read the whole story

 

[Buran]

Wow, my disgust continues. When is VW going to actually be forced to do anything? So far it's stall, stall, stall.

 

[SixDegrees]

It seems unlikely that a software fix alone will be enough to bring these cars into compliance, at least not without reducing their performance to golf cart levels. VW is probably coming to grips with the ugly, expensive truth that at least some mechanical modifications will be needed.

At best. At worst, the solution will be to buy back all the cars and scrap 'em.

 

[EnticingCanine]

SixDegrees[/url]":3n2xpgwu][...] reducing their performance [...]

IIRC, when consumer reports put 2011 and 2015 samples (one each) into the 'emissions compliant' mode, the performance (0-60mph) took about a 5% drop on the 2011, none on 2015.
Having said that, the fuel economy took about a 10% hit, which is... kinda big.

Citation (without the exact numbers, though.)

 

[sverrisson]

Are they still blaming the engineers for it? Anyone buys that story?

 

[co-lee]

the weirdness of current FBI director Comey babbling about freedom, iphones, and terrorists while former FBI director Mueller is "negotiating" with VW to see if maybe they can do something to clean up this self-created mess is notable ...

 

[Dhoomdealer]

"The company claims that it did not mean to mislead investors, because its managerial staff knew very little about what software lower-level engineers were writing into the cars."

So they're basically saying that it was all the engineers' fault and they were doing it on their own initiative? Get the fuck outta here VW, nobody is buying that story.

 

[cadence]

SixDegrees[/url]":m161a65v]

At best. At worst, the solution will be to buy back all the cars and scrap 'em.

Or they will quietly re-sell them to countries that have less strict pollution regulations...

 

[Seraphiel]

The company claims that it did not mean to mislead investors, because its managerial staff knew very little about what software lower-level engineers were writing into the cars.

Believed by nobody, ever.

 

[mcmnky]

Dhoomdealer[/url]":3fllr2ed]"The company claims that it did not mean to mislead investors, because its managerial staff knew very little about what software lower-level engineers were writing into the cars."

So they're basically saying that it was all the engineers' fault and they were doing it on their own initiative? Get the fuck outta here VW, nobody is buying that story.

That's the story GM sold about their ignition locks, and the people bought that story.

 

[eric123]

Dhoomdealer[/url]":386o8jmx]"The company claims that it did not mean to mislead investors, because its managerial staff knew very little about what software lower-level engineers were writing into the cars."

So they're basically saying that it was all the engineers' fault and they were doing it on their own initiative? Get the fuck outta here VW, nobody is buying that story.

they try to run a good company but the people who do the work always mess it up.

 

[jimlangrunner]

I think VW is doing what anyone would do - attempting to minimize the damage to the company. We may not like it. Heck, most would omit the "may". But anyone caught in such a situation would do the same thing.

They may not have the cash on hand to do what it's going to take, and are building up reserves to cover it. They may be trying to find the least expensive fix. (They probably ARE looking for the least expensive fix.) Isn't that what anyone would do?

They were caught. They're going to fix it. They're going to try to minimize its impact on the company. I can't blame them. Most anyone that has a 401k wants them to succeed, if only so they don't take a huge dive and kill those mutual funds.

 

[Raptor]

At least he didn't refer to it as their final solution.

 

[maxwell]

eric123[/url]":2tzqtkr7]

Dhoomdealer[/url]":2tzqtkr7]"The company claims that it did not mean to mislead investors, because its managerial staff knew very little about what software lower-level engineers were writing into the cars."

So they're basically saying that it was all the engineers' fault and they were doing it on their own initiative? Get the fuck outta here VW, nobody is buying that story.

they try to run a good company but the people who do the work always mess it up.

Don't be surprised if the VW executives get a huge bonus boost this year "due to the stress of managing the incident..."

 

[Se'Sorrow]

cadence[/url]":a2t7dj4s]

SixDegrees[/url]":a2t7dj4s]

At best. At worst, the solution will be to buy back all the cars and scrap 'em.

Or they will quietly re-sell them to countries that have less strict pollution regulations...

Hell, they don't even have to do it quietly. If the other country doesn't have as strict fuel/emissions control laws, who's going to care over there?

 

[nibb]

maxwell[/url]":34uoosyj]

eric123[/url]":34uoosyj]

Dhoomdealer[/url]":34uoosyj]"The company claims that it did not mean to mislead investors, because its managerial staff knew very little about what software lower-level engineers were writing into the cars."

So they're basically saying that it was all the engineers' fault and they were doing it on their own initiative? Get the fuck outta here VW, nobody is buying that story.

they try to run a good company but the people who do the work always mess it up.

Don't be surprised if the VW executives get a huge bonus boost this year "due to the stress of managing the incident..."

You mean like Wall Street in 2008? They actually paid the huge bonuses with bailout money the government gave them, tax payers money !!!

 

[CraigJ ✅]

Se'Sorrow[/url]":wy8efn19]

cadence[/url]":wy8efn19]

SixDegrees[/url]":wy8efn19]

At best. At worst, the solution will be to buy back all the cars and scrap 'em.

Or they will quietly re-sell them to countries that have less strict pollution regulations...

Hell, they don't even have to do it quietly. If the other country doesn't have as strict fuel/emissions control laws, who's going to care over there?

If this comes to pass one of the conditions needs to be verified destruction.

 

[Tom Brokaw]

Dhoomdealer[/url]":8zha5x5m]"The company claims that it did not mean to mislead investors, because its managerial staff knew very little about what software lower-level engineers were writing into the cars."

So they're basically saying that it was all the engineers' fault and they were doing it on their own initiative? Get the fuck outta here VW, nobody is buying that story.

No, it's technically accurate:

"I don't care what you have to do to get us into compliance. In fact, I don't WANT to know what you do. Just make sure we're in compliance by next Tuesday or you're fired."

So, no, the managers didn't know. They issued a directive explicitly making sure that this was the case, but they didn't know.

 

[Fatesrider]

Judge says “substantial progress payments" in negotiations made him lenient on deadline.

Call me cynical (I am), but I figure that if a technological fix which resulted in the performance achieved by VW diesel vehicles that didn't involve cheating was possible, it would have been done by OTHER auto makers.

So the judge gets paid off for a delay for VW to hide the rest of the most incriminating evidence and consolidate for the financial hit they're going to take. Business as usual...

 

[Tom Brokaw]

Fatesrider[/url]":14ylf5pr]

Judge says “substantial progress payments" in negotiations made him lenient on deadline.

Call me cynical (I am), but I figure that if a technological fix which resulted in the performance achieved by VW diesel vehicles that didn't involve cheating was possible, it would have been done by OTHER auto makers.

So the judge gets paid off for a delay for VW to hide the rest of the most incriminating evidence and consolidate for the financial hit they're going to take. Business as usual...

As I recall, BMW was able to make it happen. There is a price delta between the two companies. My conclusion is nothing new: anything is achievable if you are willing to spend enough.

 

[S8ER01Z]

I believe they would need to spend a lot to fix this issue and not neuter the vehicles performance. Any fix they apply is going to reduce power output and it's not easy / cheap to get that performance back.

 

[Enochrewt]

That's cool, they can have an extra month. As long as the extra pollution caused by their cars during that extra month is calculated and they are punitively fined for that damage.

 

[s73v3r]

Buran[/url]":dkreigku]Wow, my disgust continues. When is VW going to actually be forced to do anything? So far it's stall, stall, stall.

Of course they won't be forced to do anything. They're a job creator. Forcing them to fix their mistakes would hurt their ability to create jobs.

 

[noanoxan]

nibb[/url]":qwejcvwh]

Buran[/url]":qwejcvwh]Wow, my disgust continues. When is VW going to actually be forced to do anything? So far it's stall, stall, stall.

You are a true Internet troll moron...

The irony is real.

 

[s73v3r]

Seraphiel[/url]":13u15rwn]

The company claims that it did not mean to mislead investors, because its managerial staff knew very little about what software lower-level engineers were writing into the cars.

Believed by nobody, ever.

Sadly, far too many do.

 

[readykilowatt]

Meanwhile all of us who own one of these vehicles just watch the blue book value drop like a stone.

 

[s73v3r]

nibb[/url]":2xm61uuh]

Buran[/url]":2xm61uuh]Wow, my disgust continues. When is VW going to actually be forced to do anything? So far it's stall, stall, stall.

You are a true Internet troll moron.

Do you think it is easy to solve 600,000 vehicles that are out on the streets and you don't have or are under your control?

Other companies like Toyota took over 1 year to fix even simple problems on less cars...

I bet you don't even own a VW car and you are not affected.

And don't give that crap that you are affected because of the air pollution.

I'm affected by space pollution every time NASA or SpaceX launches a rocket and I'm not complaining. In particular when they release particles to the whole planet atmosphere which cause cancer.

I honestly don't give a fuck how difficult it is. They fucked up, and fucked up bad. They should be sparing no expense at getting a fix out there. This should be their top priority, even over getting new model cars out there.

 

[jjankechu]

readykilowatt[/url]":25mxnvxs]Meanwhile all of us who own one of these vehicles just watch the blue book value drop like a stone.

On the bright side, maybe they'll drag this out long enough that i can move straight into a model E. LEMONADE FOR EVERYONE.

 

[ExPatCA]

mcmnky[/url]":1hj4gddt]

Dhoomdealer[/url]":1hj4gddt]"The company claims that it did not mean to mislead investors, because its managerial staff knew very little about what software lower-level engineers were writing into the cars."

So they're basically saying that it was all the engineers' fault and they were doing it on their own initiative? Get the fuck outta here VW, nobody is buying that story.

That's the story GM sold about their ignition locks, and the people bought that story.

Except the problem is that GM has oscillated so far to the other side it is now crazy. I have a 2015 and they have replaced the trim around the sunroof switch not once, but twice. I almost need a stick or some other sort of pointer to open it.

 

[Fatesrider]

Tom Brokaw[/url]":ibudghws]

Fatesrider[/url]":ibudghws]

Judge says “substantial progress payments" in negotiations made him lenient on deadline.

Call me cynical (I am), but I figure that if a technological fix which resulted in the performance achieved by VW diesel vehicles that didn't involve cheating was possible, it would have been done by OTHER auto makers.

So the judge gets paid off for a delay for VW to hide the rest of the most incriminating evidence and consolidate for the financial hit they're going to take. Business as usual...

As I recall, BMW was able to make it happen. There is a price delta between the two companies. My conclusion is nothing new: anything is achievable if you are willing to spend enough.

Conceded. My bad for not explicitly adding the price point. I thought it was self-evident.

 

[melgross]

This continues to be nonsense from VW. It isn't just software. The pollution system was built to be bypassed with software. That's a physical bypass, not just software. That needs to be designed and built.

While software is free after the development costs, mechanical and electrical systems need to be designed and spec'd. Then suppliers for parts need to be found, and pricing determined. Possibly even the specs are sent out and bidding proceeds. Then the system needs to be build and tested. Sometimes, it needs to be redesigned.

All of this is true for the buy pass system installed in these cars. This costs money. How much? It's hard to say, but from looking at the bypass system, at least $100 per vehicle. Since there were over 12 million of them sold, and I don't know if that includes their other brands besides the VW brand itself, it could be a lot more, that meant that we're talking about at least $1,2 billion over those years.

It's hard to believe that upper management didn't at least question those large payouts. In companies today, every penny is questioned. Why wasn't this, if management says they didn't know about it?

 

[Reegor]

redundant. Someone else already made this point.

 

[obxvw]

I don't think VW gets it. There is no cheap easy way out of this.

Bite the bullet - EPA waives the fines and VW buys the cars back - owners can purchase a new VW. Owners happy - dealers happy.

Cars might be able to be fixed but it will be expensive, probably reduce performance,mileage, and engine life.

I have a TDI Sportwagon - I don't see a place for the urea bottle, pumps, etc. to fit

If not owners will not buy another VW, Dealerships will go under.

This is my 5th VW 8th German car (BMW, Porsche, Audi). And would be my last.

 

[jjankechu]

tpl[/url]":1zsleomy]The best solution imho would be to fix the 2015s that can be fixed by software, fine VW for the older engines and then let the whole thing go quiet.

After all there is no provable direct harm done to anyone by this extra NOx. It may be possible to fiddle with statistics and say that there are more cases of asthma but statistics can make up anything.

Given the relatively small number of TDI vehicles on the road, maybe it's OK to go with a partial fix. But let's not pretend that NOx emissions are not an environmental concern.

https://cires.colorado.edu/news/press/l ... its-sting/

 

[Reegor]

CraigJ[/url]":2hzjgx3g]

Se'Sorrow[/url]":2hzjgx3g]

cadence[/url]":2hzjgx3g]

SixDegrees[/url]":2hzjgx3g]

At best. At worst, the solution will be to buy back all the cars and scrap 'em.

Or they will quietly re-sell them to countries that have less strict pollution regulations...

Hell, they don't even have to do it quietly. If the other country doesn't have as strict fuel/emissions control laws, who's going to care over there?

If this comes to pass one of the conditions needs to be verified destruction.

Why destroy them? There are many countries where the pollution levels from these cars are better than the national standards. So selling the car at half price in one of those countries benefits both consumers, and breathers.
Obviously, VW would still take a huge bath. Face value of 6E5 cars at $2E4 each is $12 billion . They might recover $.30 on the dollar when all the discounting, shipping, reselling, support, etc is considered.

 

[TigerAway]

tpl[/url]":3bsoiod0]The best solution imho would be to fix the 2015s that can be fixed by software, fine VW for the older engines and then let the whole thing go quiet.

After all there is no provable direct harm done to anyone by this extra NOx. It may be possible to fiddle with statistics and say that there are more cases of asthma but statistics can make up anything.

Actually NOx is bad for you. The US has stricter regulations on NOx and as a result has better air quality than Europe.

It would set a really bad precedent, not to mention harm to the environment, to just slap VW with a fine. I'd rather see them fix the vehicles and not pay a fine.

 

[melgross]

tpl[/url]":1nrmirto]The best solution imho would be to fix the 2015s that can be fixed by software, fine VW for the older engines and then let the whole thing go quiet.

After all there is no provable direct harm done to anyone by this extra NOx. It may be possible to fiddle with statistics and say that there are more cases of asthma but statistics can make up anything.

That's not true. The estimate of extra deaths is easily determined. It's estimated that there could be as many as 100 deaths here, and well over a thousand in Europe.