Scifigod

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Also I disagree with the notion that ridiculing them is effective. Trump and most of his sycophants and cronies have been the subject of ridicule for years and they are largely still here and still very much in power.
Well that's like... Your opinion man. It's pretty well documented that Trump runs on optics and not outcomes. So while he doesn't give two shits about someone crying on the ground after getting pepper sprayed to the face he DOES care that he's seeing videos of agents slipping on the ice with yakkity sax in the background and people making "lol Bovino's so tiny" jokes. He's a man so thin skinned he still hasn't let go of someone making fun of the size of his hands multiple decades ago.
 

BigVince

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Also I disagree with the notion that ridiculing them is effective. Trump and most of his sycophants and cronies have been the subject of ridicule for years and they are largely still here and still very much in power.
If ridicule was going to work on any one its Trump and his administration. He's shown time and time again that he DOES react to ridicule. You might even say that this most recent shuffle of people in ICE is due to the ridicule his administration is receiving right now .
 

Louis XVI

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If ridicule was going to work on any one its Trump and his administration. He's shown time and time again that he DOES react to ridicule. You might even say that this most recent shuffle of people in ICE is due to the ridicule his administration is receiving right now .
Hell, he probably wouldn’t have even run for president if Obama hadn’t made fun of him that one time.
 

Numfuddle

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If ridicule was going to work on any one its Trump and his administration. He's shown time and time again that he DOES react to ridicule. You might even say that this most recent shuffle of people in ICE is due to the ridicule his administration is receiving right now .
So the faces change but last time I checked ICE is still very much doing what it has been doing for the last year, Miller is still scheming in the background and the project 2025 items are still being worked on. Gaza is still slated to become a billionaire resort, Venezuelan oil reserves are being sold off to Trump sponsors as we speak and with the completed TikTok acquisition the oligarchs are now in control of most of your media.
 

Numfuddle

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Well that's like... Your opinion man. It's pretty well documented that Trump runs on optics and not outcomes. So while he doesn't give two shits about someone crying on the ground after getting pepper sprayed to the face he DOES care that he's seeing videos of agents slipping on the ice with yakkity sax in the background and people making "lol Bovino's so tiny" jokes. He's a man so thin skinned he still hasn't let go of someone making fun of the size of his hands multiple decades ago.
So they'll replace Bovino with someone else and then continue to do what they planned to do anyway.
 
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Soothsayer786

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The Baron is bringing in some new guy called “Feyd-Rautha” to replace the evil guy he put in charge before. We’re saved Patrick!
I don't doubt they bring in someone new and possibly worse. But this whole fiasco isn't helping them any come election time. I don't think anyone believes Bovino being ousted means it is all going to stop.
 

Megalodon

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„Haha he’s so small“ isn’t the burn some people think it is if the org they are leading are publicly executing people in broad daylight.

But it is though, because fascists are obsessed with the image they project and are deathly afraid of ridicule. Mockery is an indispensable tool in the anti-fascist toolkit.
 

Scifigod

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I don't doubt they bring in someone new and possibly worse. But this whole fiasco isn't helping them any come election time. I don't think anyone believes Bovino being ousted means it is all going to stop.
Not one bit, but, while the clown car is getting reshuffled that's just more time for people to get organized. This is a marathon not a sprint.
 

Coppercloud

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Good grief. I'm sorry I brought it up (the joke about Bovino's height). To be clear I never said it was effective, in fact I called it petty! But we're all probably a little stressed and I'd hoped it would help bring down someone's blood pressure, surely nothing will do that in the box and thus I apologize.

Given that we're having this argument - I'd just like to say that something was clearly effective as he got his ass kicked out of Minnesota, and yes, he'll probably be replaced by someone as bad or worse, and Venezuela and Gaza are still problems and the list goes on. But is the bar to clear for effectiveness really solving all our problems completely in one fell swoop? Really? We need to make sure to take care of Bovino so well and truly that we fix Gaza and Venezuela at the same time?! Fuck, I'd better just crawl back into my hole and panic hopelessly until I stroke out.

In other news that I'm sure someone will figure out a way to tell me has no joy humor or hope: separately from the judge considering an order to force ice to revert to their numbers from before metro surge another judge is pissed that ICE has been ignoring orders and has ordered the director of ICE to court in person in Minneapolis on Friday to explain himself.

As I post this apparently this is a shitty link because MPR can't keep up with posting new articles vs updates and is just amending shit to a very unspecific page. But here it is.
https://www.mprnews.org/live-updates

Please, don't tell me how they will be ignored and we all need to lose hope, bury our heads in the sand, and or how nothing short of civil war will help us here and this is a waste of everyone's time. I've heard your arguments and I'm going to continue clinging to hope and doing what I can instead of clinging to nihilism and telling everyone else that nothing is worth it and you can't accomplish anything.
 
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flere-imsaho

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Also I disagree with the notion that ridiculing them is effective. Trump and most of his sycophants and cronies have been the subject of ridicule for years and they are largely still here and still very much in power.
IMO, the point of ridicule shouldn't be to get the target of ridicule to change only due to ridicule (though fine if that happens), but instead to make other less likely to support said target (assuming, of course, the said target is worthy of ridicule in the first place).

This is the exact tactic the GOP has used since Ronald "I will not make fun of my opponent's youth & inexperience" Reagan to make people uncomfortable supporting Democrats.
 

Macam

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Mocking people isn’t effective on its own. It’s not going to change material outcomes in any meaningful way by itself. It’s cathartic for people that feel helpless or that want to point out what absolute losers these chuds are, and helps counter the regime’s marketing stunts for the worst, gullible people.

But what will make Bovino “lose his job” (where he will largely be out of the public eye, peacefully grifting in the far right media ecosystem for the next 3+ years) is having jugs of piss thrown at his head, having people angrily and forcefully confront him everywhere he goes, including ensuring he can’t sleep or eat peacefully, and making him generally feel uncomfortable/unsafe anywhere he goes.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: purely from an observational viewpoint, the Jan 6th “rioters” were very politically effective. They weren’t an especially humorous lot.

Just please don’t delude yourselves into thinking there won’t be another replacement or mechanism the regime will aggressively pursue to achieve the same (or worse) goals just because Jon Stewart made a tired, dick joke for the 183rd time or anything.

Mockery has its uses, especially when the regime is trying to crack down on free speech, but if that’s all we’re doing, the domestic basij forces will just muffle the wisecracks with gunfire. Nothing wrong with having hope, but we should also be realistic about where we are and what’s happening, while keeping an eye on the goals and outcomes we want to achieve.

All the usual caveats here about peaceful protest, not condoning violence, etc apply here.
 

BigVince

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Good grief. I'm sorry I brought it up (the joke about Bovino's height). To be clear I never said it was effective, in fact I called it petty! But we're all probably a little stressed and I'd hoped it would help bring down someone's blood pressure, surely nothing will do that in the box and thus I apologize.

Given that we're having this argument - I'd just like to say that something was clearly effective as he got his ass kicked out of Minnesota, and yes, he'll probably be replaced by someone as bad or worse, and Venezuela and Gaza are still problems and the list goes on. But is the bar to clear for effectiveness really solving all our problems completely in one fell swoop? Really? We need to make sure to take care of Bovino so well and truly that we fix Gaza and Venezuela at the same time?! Fuck, I'd better just crawl back into my hole and panic hopelessly until I stroke out.

In other news that I'm sure someone will figure out a way to tell me has no joy humor or hope: separately from the judge considering an order to force ice to revert to their numbers from before metro surge another judge is pissed that ICE has been ignoring orders and has ordered the director of ICE to court in person in Minneapolis on Friday to explain himself.

As I post this apparently this is a shitty link because MPR can't keep up with posting new articles vs updates and is just amending shit to a very unspecific page. But here it is.
https://www.mprnews.org/live-updates

Please, don't tell me how they will be ignored and we all need to lose hope, bury our heads in the sand, and or how nothing short of civil war will help use here and this is a waste of everyone's time. I've heard your arguments and I'm going to continue clinging to hope and doing what I can instead of clinging to nihilism and telling everyone else that nothing is worth it and you can't accomplish anything.
Well its definitely better than throwing your hands up in desperation and giving up.
 

Ecmaster76

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Good grief. I'm sorry I brought it up (the joke about Bovino's height). To be clear I never said it was effective, in fact I called it petty! But we're all probably a little stressed and I'd hoped it would help bring down someone's blood pressure, surely nothing will do that in the box and thus I apologize.
We're on year 11 of "Trump has tiny hands", so its safe to say ridicule of physical appearance is not particularly effective.

Some might even say its a distraction from meaningful criticism and debate.
 

Coppercloud

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Just please don’t delude yourselves into thinking there won’t be another replacement or mechanism the regime will aggressively pursue to achieve the same (or worse) goals just because Jon Stewart made a tired, dick joke for the 183rd time or anything.
Yeah, John Stewart made 420 dick jokes in 69 seconds, but at the end of his segment do you know what he said? He said "There is nothing more dangerous to a regime predicated on lies than witnesses who capture the truth." And maybe this reveals that the humor isn't meant to cut down the subject of the humor, but rather make the guy cosplaying as a Nazi seem just a little less scary to help encourage people to do what they can. Maybe just giving us a juvenile rally cry helps us rally.
 

Coppercloud

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Some might even say its a distraction from meaningful criticism and debate.
This is valid. This is really valid. That being said, I think that a degree of humor, petty or even childish, can help relieve the load on people that will just burn them out. Too much and they don't take things seriously. Too little and they give up out of exhaustion.
 
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Lycanthropos

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Good grief. I'm sorry I brought it up (the joke about Bovino's height). To be clear I never said it was effective, in fact I called it petty! But we're all probably a little stressed and I'd hoped it would help bring down someone's blood pressure, surely nothing will do that in the box and thus I apologize.

Given that we're having this argument - I'd just like to say that something was clearly effective as he got his ass kicked out of Minnesota, and yes, he'll probably be replaced by someone as bad or worse, and Venezuela and Gaza are still problems and the list goes on. But is the bar to clear for effectiveness really solving all our problems completely in one fell swoop? Really? We need to make sure to take care of Bovino so well and truly that we fix Gaza and Venezuela at the same time?! Fuck, I'd better just crawl back into my hole and panic hopelessly until I stroke out.

In other news that I'm sure someone will figure out a way to tell me has no joy humor or hope: separately from the judge considering an order to force ice to revert to their numbers from before metro surge another judge is pissed that ICE has been ignoring orders and has ordered the director of ICE to court in person in Minneapolis on Friday to explain himself.

As I post this apparently this is a shitty link because MPR can't keep up with posting new articles vs updates and is just amending shit to a very unspecific page. But here it is.
https://www.mprnews.org/live-updates

Please, don't tell me how they will be ignored and we all need to lose hope, bury our heads in the sand, and or how nothing short of civil war will help use here and this is a waste of everyone's time. I've heard your arguments and I'm going to continue clinging to hope and doing what I can instead of clinging to nihilism and telling everyone else that nothing is worth it and you can't accomplish anything.
For what it's worth, I found the comment uplifting.

They don't deserve the dignity of being treated like they're powerful. They are. We know that. They know that. They WANT us afraid and taking them seriously. It wasn't calling the fascists that made a dent, it was calling them WEIRD.

They feed on fear, on nihilism and us being certain that nothing will help and they're too entrenched and too powerful and even if one goes, another will show up in an endless flow of awful. Sorry, but I don't think that acting as though MAGA, ICE and the rest are insurmountable is going to help at all. So no, I'm going to laugh. I'm going to point out Bovino looks ridiculous in his mini-Nazi costume. I'm going to protest and donate to causes that are helping, I'm going to keep pushing and finding new things that might help, and I AM GOING TO LAUGH AT THEM.
 
Why ridicule matters:

American politics has devolved into shitposting and aura farming

tl;dr: The administration is a bunch of aura farmers, shitposting (ridicule) beats aura farming, and acting normal beats shitposting. MAGA is incapable of acting normal, thus so as long as you can beat them at shitposting while not abandoning acting normal, you can win.
 

Numfuddle

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Yeah, John Stewart made 420 dick jokes in 69 seconds, but at the end of his segment do you know what he said? He said "There is nothing more dangerous to a regime predicated on lies than witnesses who capture the truth." And maybe this reveals that the humor isn't meant to cut down the subject of the humor, but rather make the guy cosplaying as a Nazi seem just a little less scary to help encourage people to do what they can. Maybe just giving us a juvenile rally cry helps us rally.
I agree but is whatever Saturday Night Live keeps doing or NPR reporting that "people on the internet keep wondering if Bovino is short" really the most scathing things people can come up with?

I suppose a more constructive thing for me to say is that effective ridicule is either something that lifts the spirits of the people fighting or something targeting an aspect that matters to the GOP base or the people they need to impress.

A tiny man cosplaying as an SS officer while being surrounded by masked and armed ICE officers who is tripping and faceplanting into the Minessotan snow now that is something that's not only funny but also something that their people care about because it makes him seem weak and ridiculous in their eyes.
 

Megalodon

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I agree but is whatever Saturday Night Live keeps doing or NPR reporting that "people on the internet keep wondering if Bovino is short" really the most scathing things people can come up with?

Obviously not—that's just backscatter. But it is not the job of this thread to provide an onboarding for how to online.
 

Macam

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flere-imsaho

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Why ridicule matters:
American politics has devolved into shitposting and aura farming

tl;dr: The administration is a bunch of aura farmers, shitposting (ridicule) beats aura farming, and acting normal beats shitposting. MAGA is incapable of acting normal, thus so as long as you can beat them at shitposting while not abandoning acting normal, you can win.
100%. Since Reagan, national races (definitely POTUS, very often Senate, quite often House) are being won on vibes, not policy.
 

DarthSlack

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Yeah, John Stewart made 420 dick jokes in 69 seconds, but at the end of his segment do you know what he said? He said "There is nothing more dangerous to a regime predicated on lies than witnesses who capture the truth." And maybe this reveals that the humor isn't meant to cut down the subject of the humor, but rather make the guy cosplaying as a Nazi seem just a little less scary to help encourage people to do what they can. Maybe just giving us a juvenile rally cry helps us rally.

In support of this idea, I offer up one Mel Brooks. He realized that a very legitimate way of dealing with the horrors of Hitler, was to make fun of Hitler. As a result we now have gems like The Producers, and Hitler on Ice.

Fascists don't get humor, it can be an incredibly effective weapon against them. As well as a bit of self-care.
 
A judge in Minnesota has issued an "order to show" to Todd Lyons, the acting head of ICE.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mnd.230171/gov.uscourts.mnd.230171.7.0.pdf
This Court has been extremely patient with respondents, even though
respondents decided to send thousands of agents to Minnesota to detain aliens without
making any provision for dealing with the hundreds of habeas petitions and other
lawsuits that were sure to result. Respondents have continually assured the Court that
they recognize their obligation to comply with Court orders, and that they have taken
steps to ensure that those orders will be honored going forward. Unfortunately,
though, the violations continue.

The Court’s patience is at an end. Accordingly, the Court will order Todd Lyons,
the Acting Director of ICE, to appear personally before the Court and show cause why he
should not be held in contempt of Court.
 

Scifigod

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In news not related to lecturing everyone how we're doing it wrong here's an article from the Minnesota Star tribune visualizing how detainees are shuffled around the country almost immediately upon arrest. The multiple moves appear designed by nature to ensure people get lost in the system until whatever time based limits to challenge their detention expire or the detainees just gives up rather continue to fight their arrest.
https://www.startribune.com/how-imm...ved-around-minnesota-and-the-nation/601542372
 
"Win" what, exactly?

A huge part of the appeal of fascism, and authoritarianism in general, is that it looks good.

Wouldn't it be great if the trains ran on time?

Look at those refined uniforms. They certainly look disciplined.

Undermining the appearance of competence directly undermines fascism.


Also humor tends to pierce a lot of the mental defenses people have.


I think there is a PHD waiting to be awarded to someone who shows how postwar WW2 movies that portrayed the Nazis are unified, refined, advanced and disciplined to build them up as villians and how that imagine took root over the reality of meth addled dipshits, back stabbing each other.
 

Coppercloud

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A judge in Minnesota has issued an "order to show" to Todd Lyons, the acting head of ICE.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mnd.230171/gov.uscourts.mnd.230171.7.0.pdf
Unfortunately that document says that if they finally let the guy go, this whole matter will be dropped. And I'm not a fan of that. They were told to let the guy go before now, and if they didn't comply that's a problem. They need to follow the law before they court says "no really, this time I mean it. Ok, this time I mean it."

Screenshot_20260127-125733_Firefox.png
 
Looks like some Republicans getting nervous about the whole thing. The victim being a male VA Nurse with a valid firearms license being disarmed and executed might be a step too far for some. The utter incompetence of MAGA shows through and through.

The fact they then shat on the 2nd amendment rights on top was the icing on the cake.

This phase was supposed to start in 2029. They accidentally go ahead of themselves due to incompetence.
 

Crolis

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And the next ICE/US Border Patrol victim is here, this time in Arizona. Currently no further details known as far as I can tell other than someone was shot: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/person-shot-border-patrol-involved-arizona-rcna256137.

I really question their tactics of doing this shit in swing states. Like having Gov candidates drop out because they have to say bad shit about ICE. Having GOP Senate candidates have to have disclaimers. I get that state leadership in Minnesota is blue but the GOP isn't winning any hearts and minds.
 
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I really question their tactics of doing this shit in swing states. Like having Gov candidates drop out because they have to say bad shit about ICE. Having GOP Senate candidates have to have disclaimers. I get that state leadership in Minnesota is blue but the GOP isn't winning any hearts and minds.

Swing states makes sense if they try to use ICE to affect the elections. This may be a preview of voter intimidation.