Corporations are measured by money, of course: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ation#2012Namarrgon":144190z4 said:Nitpick: It isn't, not by any physical metric you could associate with "size".Apple is the world's largest company
redleader":20rutzmn said:So stupid question:
How do these software radios actually work electrically? Are they reprogrammable tuners/mixers or are they literally just parking an oscillator at some frequency and running a really fast A/D to capture everything moving through the air over a very wide band?
Can they simultaneously read in 1 GHz and 2 GHz transmission for instance?
xoa":2f87dop6 said:It's hard to say for sure, but I think there's a very good chance that will not actually end up being a huge deal, at least once society adjusts. The key factor is that, of the entire range of technology crimes, or even crimes in general, it's hard to think of many where a person or item announces the problem more clearly. "Maliciousness" and "incompetence" appear to be similar here: someone sets up a device that, either by intention or just simple misconfiguration, ends up being a bad EM citizen and pumps out too much power too randomly, thus acting like a jammer and mucking things up for others. However, by definition anything operating with that kind of power is dead easy to find by anyone at all. The exact same physics that cause it to mess with other network equipment also means it's a big fat "Here I Am" sign.mikecyber":2f87dop6 said:What happens when people decide to intentionally be malicious?
So it'll be easy to see who or what is being bad, and thus I think tools and social norms can be developed to handle it. It seems very similar to noise pollution really, if someone is partying too loudly and bothers the neighbors then the first step is just calling them up or walking over and asking them to turn it down, which often is enough right there. Everyone here could go out and buy a big set of speakers, turn them up to 11 and be a jerk, but that isn't a widespread problem because most people aren't jerks and even for those that are most will bow to social pressure. For what remains, just call the cops. "It's freaking one in the morning and so-and-so's kid is having a rock concert in their back yard" becomes "so-and-so's kid is operating a jammer and messing with everyone's Internet".
No doubt there will be plenty of growing pains though, and people being idiots. Wasn't too long ago where we had a story covering people pointing lasers at aircraft for example.
Sorry to nitpick, but the BBC isn't and never has been state-owned. Yes it was a monopoly, but they've always made a big point of being politically neutral.For example, in the 1960s, radio stations floating in international waters blasted pop music into the United Kingdom where state-owned monopoly broadcasters only offered programming the authorities regarded as more wholesome.
I don't agree. The only reason it's not more common is that most people just aren't that malicious. Yes, the equipment to snoop on phone signals is expensive, but jammers are dead easy to build using parts you can get from an electronics store for pocket change. If I really wanted to I could literally walk over to my garage and put together a jammer in a few hours. But I don't want to. Yes there will always be people who want to sabotage everyone elses fun, but they're such a small minority that they're not usually that much of a problem.SDR will allow anyone so inclined to mimic existing networks. What happens when someone decides they want broadcast over the entire FM range? Or mimic a cell tower to snoop your communications? Or overpower GPS signals? Indeed, all of those things have already been accomplished. The only thing stopping it from being more common is the cost of hardware.
Sorry to nitpick, but the BBC isn't and never has been state-owned. Yes it was a monopoly, but they've always made a big point of being politically neutral.atom944":1bbijnj5 said:For example, in the 1960s, radio stations floating in international waters blasted pop music into the United Kingdom where state-owned monopoly broadcasters only offered programming the authorities regarded as more wholesome.
atom944":2bs4c33w said:Sorry to nitpick, but the BBC isn't and never has been state-owned. Yes it was a monopoly, but they've always made a big point of being politically neutral.For example, in the 1960s, radio stations floating in international waters blasted pop music into the United Kingdom where state-owned monopoly broadcasters only offered programming the authorities regarded as more wholesome.
I don't agree. The only reason it's not more common is that most people just aren't that malicious. Yes, the equipment to snoop on phone signals is expensive, but jammers are dead easy to build using parts you can get from an electronics store for pocket change. If I really wanted to I could literally walk over to my garage and put together a jammer in a few hours. But I don't want to. Yes there will always be people who want to sabotage everyone elses fun, but they're such a small minority that they're not usually that much of a problem.SDR will allow anyone so inclined to mimic existing networks. What happens when someone decides they want broadcast over the entire FM range? Or mimic a cell tower to snoop your communications? Or overpower GPS signals? Indeed, all of those things have already been accomplished. The only thing stopping it from being more common is the cost of hardware.
Tim Lee":b8vo6dv4 said:Since people are complaining about the claim about Apple being the world's largest company, I've added "by market capitalization" to make it clear.
If all else fails, one can always go with the HARM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-88_HARMdaggar":216p82px said:xoa":216p82px said:It's hard to say for sure, but I think there's a very good chance that will not actually end up being a huge deal, at least once society adjusts. The key factor is that, of the entire range of technology crimes, or even crimes in general, it's hard to think of many where a person or item announces the problem more clearly. "Maliciousness" and "incompetence" appear to be similar here: someone sets up a device that, either by intention or just simple misconfiguration, ends up being a bad EM citizen and pumps out too much power too randomly, thus acting like a jammer and mucking things up for others. However, by definition anything operating with that kind of power is dead easy to find by anyone at all. The exact same physics that cause it to mess with other network equipment also means it's a big fat "Here I Am" sign.mikecyber":216p82px said:What happens when people decide to intentionally be malicious?
So it'll be easy to see who or what is being bad, and thus I think tools and social norms can be developed to handle it. It seems very similar to noise pollution really, if someone is partying too loudly and bothers the neighbors then the first step is just calling them up or walking over and asking them to turn it down, which often is enough right there. Everyone here could go out and buy a big set of speakers, turn them up to 11 and be a jerk, but that isn't a widespread problem because most people aren't jerks and even for those that are most will bow to social pressure. For what remains, just call the cops. "It's freaking one in the morning and so-and-so's kid is having a rock concert in their back yard" becomes "so-and-so's kid is operating a jammer and messing with everyone's Internet".
No doubt there will be plenty of growing pains though, and people being idiots. Wasn't too long ago where we had a story covering people pointing lasers at aircraft for example.
Well said. Hit the nail on the head.
I think you're overly optimistic. The reason why you have the skill to build a transmitter in your garage (years spent on technical training in college &/or work) is the very reason why you don't find it worthwhile to do so. When this same capability is available to high school kids with a couple hundred bucks and a GUI toolkit they found on 4chan, the likelihood of abuse goes WAY up.atom944":r8xd89me said:I don't agree. The only reason it's not more common is that most people just aren't that malicious. Yes, the equipment to snoop on phone signals is expensive, but jammers are dead easy to build using parts you can get from an electronics store for pocket change. If I really wanted to I could literally walk over to my garage and put together a jammer in a few hours. But I don't want to. Yes there will always be people who want to sabotage everyone elses fun, but they're such a small minority that they're not usually that much of a problem.
frankie1969":5n5d5nr9 said:I think you're overly optimistic. The reason why you have the skill to build a transmitter in your garage (years spent on technical training in college &/or work) is the very reason why you don't find it worthwhile to do so. When this same capability is available to high school kids with a couple hundred bucks and a GUI toolkit they found on 4chan, the likelihood of abuse goes WAY up.atom944":5n5d5nr9 said:I don't agree. The only reason it's not more common is that most people just aren't that malicious. Yes, the equipment to snoop on phone signals is expensive, but jammers are dead easy to build using parts you can get from an electronics store for pocket change. If I really wanted to I could literally walk over to my garage and put together a jammer in a few hours. But I don't want to. Yes there will always be people who want to sabotage everyone elses fun, but they're such a small minority that they're not usually that much of a problem.
Also, the analogy to annoying loudspeakers or laser pointers is faulty. Almost everyone has the necessary sensors (ears & eyes) to quickly & accurately identify the source of those emissions. Vanishingly few people have directional radio detectors that operate across the frequency range these new devices can produce.
What on Earth are you talking about!? Why are we in 2012, talking with someone who has been a registered Arsian since 2003, and still have to mention "HELLO ENCRYPTION" every single freaking discussion on something like this? Modern secure communications does not necessarily require a completely secure, closed physical network (nor could the Internet function as it does if such a requirement existed).frankie1969":ku9ckg2m said:It will inevitably be used to intercept/spoof personal wireless communication.
What credible abuse is there except jamming? And as has already been pointed out, jamming doesn't require any special equipment and can be done for way less then a few hundred bucks right now, with no "GUI" at all. All the special equipment and software is necessary to actually do useful work, but if one just wants to pump out a bunch of broad spectrum white noise it's not exactly high level electronic engineering.frankie1969":ku9ckg2m said:When this same capability is available to high school kids with a couple hundred bucks and a GUI toolkit they found on 4chan, the likelihood of abuse goes WAY up.
And here you can't even keep consistent within the very same post. Your first paragraph references the entire point of the article and discussion: a future world where everyone does have software-definied radio. That's what this is all about! You're simultaneously saying "when these are dirt cheap and dead easy it'll be a problem" and "it'll be hard to find the problem because they aren't dirt cheap and dead easy." Those are mutually exclusive frankie1969, if it's widespread and straightforward for anyone, then that goes both ways. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if an early open source application for SDRs was "identify direction, power, and spectrum for all detectable radio sources", as it's a cool and useful little project by itself.Also, the analogy to annoying loudspeakers or laser pointers is faulty. Almost everyone has the necessary sensors (ears & eyes) to quickly & accurately identify the source of those emissions. Vanishingly few people have directional radio detectors that operate across the frequency range these new devices can produce.
paulhampson":2tu788aa said:The Apple 1 and Apple computing in general have never had a major influence in the pc business(only music players and mobile phones, and perhaps industrial design), and they certainly weren 't the primary pioneers in bringing computers into the home.
Except for your showing your total ignorance and bias in the area of personal computing, intresting article.
Absurd.paulhampson":gbc5t1xg said:The Apple 1 and Apple computing in general have never had a major influence in the pc business(only music players and mobile phones, and perhaps industrial design), and they certainly weren 't the primary pioneers in bringing computers into the home.
Except for your showing your total ignorance and bias in the area of personal computing, intresting article.
Owl Saver":4s6b6hz0 said:I have been following SDR for several years now. Combined with Spread Spectrum, it really does seem to be the future of radio communications. I wonder about two things:
-What will the protocols be like? There will need to be protocols to request and give up the use of frequencies. It seems like Ethernets CSMA/CD approach would fit.
-Will there continue to be central high powered broadcasters? I could see lots of small units that relay the signal. But, that seems to not provide the level of reliability needed. So, if there are lots of smaller towers, how will they be paid for?
My vision would be for a completely dynamic use of the airwaves. For things like radio and TV, there would be a channel that provides the current location for each broadcaster (if they still exist). For internet access, the least used frequencies would be used.
It will be a true Ethernet.
paulhampson":1rtr7lnb said:The Apple 1 and Apple computing in general have never had a major influence in the pc business(only music players and mobile phones, and perhaps industrial design), and they certainly weren 't the primary pioneers in bringing computers into the home.
Except for your showing your total ignorance and bias in the area of personal computing, intresting article.
pepoluan":2jhsai0w said:Bah! You've beaten me to it. :-(ColinABQ":2jhsai0w said:I haven't read all of this article yet, but it's already reminded me of a prior one, at the other end of the scale:
http://meincmagazine.com/information-technology/2012/06/how-to-blow-6-billion-on-a-tech-project/
Cattus In Nemus":1m5h6edi said:I'm extremely excited about this. I recall an MIT project called "Oxygen" from a decade or so ago, describing how RF comms would be all pervasive (like oxygen) if they could master SDR. I've been waiting...
As for the Apple metaphor, since I actually know my geek history I understand it is an apt comparison.
The problem is that too many readers don't know their history. We're not talking Jobs, we're talking Woz here. The author really should have compared SDR to the Homebrew Computer Club.
In 1975 there was this brand new kit called the Altair. It couldn't do anything. Seriously, it had NO PRACTICAL APPLICATION WHATSOEVER. In the beginning, the Altair had no monitor, no keyboard, no audio, and certainly no mouse. It had some switches and some blinking LEDs, and that's it.
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But the group of HACKING GODS in the Homebrew Computer Club looked at this useless box and creamed their pants, it was the coolest fucking thing ever.
Within 5 years, the personal computer revolution was in high gear. And the world changed. You can trace that change of the whole world back to a little room in southern California, those manic geeks gathered around their silly box with the blinking lights. They recognized the future when they saw it.
Be a proud geek. Learn your history. (Ars - Please educate them.)
These new SDR products are exactly like the first real computers coming out of the Altair club. It's exciting as hell. Revolutionary even.
Go ahead and ignore SDR, then see how you feel about it in 20 years.
PS: I'm a Linux hacker. I have zero Apple gear.
It's not so much that people ignore SDR, it's that radio implementations that use more DSP are a natural progression in communications. You can pretend it's a huge revolution if you want, but not many people who are actually knowledgeable about the field are going to swept away by that sort of ill-informed hype.Cattus In Nemus":1di8xzsw said:Be a proud geek. Learn your history. (Ars - Please educate them.)
These new SDR products are exactly like the first real computers coming out of the Altair club. It's exciting as hell. Revolutionary even.
Go ahead and ignore SDR, then see how you feel about it in 20 years.
PS: I'm a Linux hacker. I have zero Apple gear.
Grieviant":11g3dd11 said:It's not so much that people ignore SDR, it's that radio implementations that use more DSP are a natural progression of the the field. You can pretend it's a huge revolution if you want, but not many people who actually work in communications are going to swept away by that sort of ill-informed hype.Cattus In Nemus":11g3dd11 said:These new SDR products are exactly like the first real computers coming out of the Altair club. It's exciting as hell. Revolutionary even.
Shadowself":26fj6cuf said:This article tries to make it seem like SDRs are a new thing. They're not.
...
There have been many, many military SDRs that have been cost effective (at least in military terms where a $10,000 radio that is military rugged is "cost effective") over the past decade. Some of these radios support multiple frequency bands (some even supporting a range from VHF up through Ka-band in the same box). And this is all publicly available information! Many of these same systems even support multiple modulation techniques running from analog FM to digital up through things like 32 APSK and 64 QAM.
True ingenuity and creativity can now begin? Corporate overlords keeping down the masses from their ivory towers by locking away tech? Game changing transition? Great innovations stagnating on the shelf?Cattus In Nemus":qgcau9ow said:Of course SDR existed before this.
Computers also existed before the Altair and the Apple I.
In fact, the Altair sucked in comparison to 'real' computers of the day.
That's not the point.
For 30 years, computers were locked up in the ivory towers of the specialists, never in the hands of the unwashed masses. Judging by your response, I'd guess that you are yourself in such an ivory tower, and probably resent hackers like me intruding into your domain. I'm terribly sorry, but it's our turn now.
The revolution of the PC was that the power was transferred into the hands of the people, it was suddenly made accessible. Crackpots and dreamers and other miscreants. That changed EVERYTHING.
Look at the computers of 1974 and compare them to the computers of 1984. The difference was Hackers. Freedom to explore.
Not what your boss tells you to work on, but what you actually want to work on.
Now that we hackers have access to (relatively) affordable SDR, we can begin to explore the full ramifications. True invention and creativity can begin, unconstrained by the needs of the corporations that pay the bills.
Remember, Xerox had the Mouse and the GUI. It was a commercial flop. Did Xerox bring you the GUI? NO. Apple did.
There are dozens of great innovations stagnant in SDR right now, on the shelf, for exactly the same reason.
Hackers. Revolution. Why? A solid business plan? NO. Because it was cool.
Nobody really knew in 1976 what would happen with the Apple I, what its children would become. Hindsight is 20/20.
Thanks to hindsight, we now know what happens when hackers can finally get their hands on tech that has been hidden away for decades.
There are transition points in history. Game-changers, if you will. I believe this is just such a time. Not so great as the PC or the Web, perhaps, but truly significant.
You can disagree. That's fine. Time will tell.