How Huawei made a cutting-edge chip in China and surprised the US
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Huh! Thats not even in the top 100 most developed Muslim cities., let alone #1
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Crying Croc
Ars Praetorian
As a traveler who visited Urumqi and Kashi (Kashgar) back in 2009, I was fortunate to win the trust of some local Uighurs - who told me the numerous restrictions they must live under, day to day. I don't think this Indian youtuber had any in-depth conversations with local Uighurs? On the surface, Urumqi and even the more remote Kashgar are doing well economically. And I think herein lies the problem: our news media (CNN, etc.) seldom show the positive sides of societies we deem 'our enemies' - so we get a slanted, almost caricature understanding of those societies (Iran is another example).
The persecutions are real. But so are the economic progress. And in some ways, even social progress. I wish our government and news media will present to us all facets, and not just focusing on some and filtering out others -- to avoid 'complicating the message' or whatever.
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It's hard to believe that they would react in any other way.
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Fly to North Korea, you'll get a guided tour and find out how amazingly well-off the country is.
China flies youtubers to carefully curated areas and has handlers follow them to make sure they don't stray from the path. If you set up a youtube channel and gather any kind of a following you can experience it yourself.
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Well, yeah, because they steal everything. They're not stupid, and they have one of the most powerful governments in the world backing/sponsoring their theft. If the US were a one-state nation that incentivized private/quasi-private entity theft for the glory of US, we'd probably steal tons of foreign IP, too.
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Well, those rights can be taken away if a Constitutional Amendment were to be passed and ratified that removes them. Or if our government is ever violently overthrown (which it almost was nearly 3 years ago).
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It is well known to Chinese that people living in Xinjiang suffer from extra restrictions, like more frequent and enhanced security checks and internet censorship, compared to the rest of mainland China. But... (A) These restrictions apply to all people living there, including Han Chinese. You can't skip the security check at the entrance of a subway station because you look like a Han. (B) Do those restrictions constitute "genocide"? Is the bar of genocide that low?
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But at the very least you must admit that the scenes in all these videos are real, right? All videos are showing minorities are walking on the streets, shops everywhere full of merchandise being sold, restaurants full of customers enjoying their meals... You can count tens of thousands of minority faces in all these videos, including man, women, children and elders. You are not gonna say that they are all paid actors, are you?
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Genocide doesn't have to mean "mass murder." It's any systematic and intentional destruction of a unique population--whether cultural, religious, ethnic, or racial-- in such a way that's meant to prevent it existing anymore. That means doing things like stealing children away from parents, and preventing them from learning the same culture/language of their forebears, thus making the culture cease to exist. This is exactly what the US and Canada and various other Western colonial powers did with natives in the 'New' World and Africa, Polynesia, etc. They did it with murder sometimes, but just as often "reeducation" and child theft. That's what China is currently doing to any number of minority, non-Han populations as well. Many in China might even genuinely believe that these minorities are better off economically or socially as a result. But the point is, it's still genocide, and the minorities still don't get to just refuse or vote "no."
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Crying Croc
Ars Praetorian
1. NK - True.
2. China - False (mostly) - Tibet - entry restrictions. But most of the rest of the country, there is no curation. You buy a bus or plane or train ticket, and off you go. Photo whatever you like (except military/police stuff). More restriction re. drone photography. But these restrictions are hardly unique to China.
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OrangeCream
Ars Legatus Legionis
I would say you're wrong to assume. It's not impossible that TSMC was compromised, but the quoted costs imply that they're pulling an Intel here:
The person describes that as a “positive number under tough conditions” but notes that it is “at least a two times increase in cost compared to a production line with a 90 percent yield, the ideal benchmark for the mobile chips fabrication.”
Industry experts believe Chinese state funding compensated for the excessive chip production costs. Huawei received Rmb6.55 billion ($948 million) from the Chinese government in 2022, more than double the amount the previous year, according to the company’s annual report. SMIC has received Rmb6.88 billion in state subsidies over the past three years, with additional support from the China Integrated Circuit Industry Investment Fund as a major shareholder.
That's the sign the sanctions are working. 30% yield means each chip costs 3x what it would cost TSMC, and state funding means the infrastructure costs slow down the entire economy
I dunno, sounds like sanctions were useful. SMIC and the state are hobbled by high chip manufacturing costs. Where Apple and TSMC can spend $13b to go from 5nm to 3nm, China, Huawei, and SMIC have to spend several times more just to keep 7nm in volume production, and even more than that to develop 5nm and later 3nm. It's akin to trying to compete in a race with the parking brake on. You have to burn through more fuel, use a larger displacement engine, and replace the brakes far more often just to stay in the race with no expectation of ever winning.
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To be able to do this they did not have to compromise TSMC, they used double or quad patterning to achieve this (which explains the lower yields and increased number of steps required to produce the chips). According to the referenced wikipedia article this principle has been first demonstrated in 1983, so it has been around for a while.
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OrangeCream
Ars Legatus Legionis
You make it sound as if we, the US, haven't engaged in the same thing, with a far, far, smaller majority of white people.
Sounds like it's also effective in the long term when you consider, per the article, 30% yields of 7nm, and ongoing subsidies and support. Imagine how expensive 5nm and 3nm is going to be. It's like trying to race with a parking brake applied.
No, it's not unthinkable. The system evolved but the people are still fundamentally the same (people are always just people). Dress codes, haircut rules, tailored curriculum, and laws exist to suppress the minority (Disney vs DeSantis is a notably and exceptionally visible battle of the majority vs the minority here).
That's the point. We're not that different.
We don't have adequate protection; we have some, sure, but I wouldn't call it adequate when 'living while black' is an unfortunate thing, that incidentally applies to all minorities at different levels.
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BTW, are there any reports claiming that all foreign people travelling in China will get a guided tour? If true, there will be LOTS OF guided tours needed because there are literally millions of foreigners traveling in China each year. But strangely, I've rarely seen people claiming that. Maybe you could book a ticket to China and see if there will be a guided tour waiting there for you without any arrangements prior to the trip.
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He's walking around a specific part of town (which he's not permitted to leave). The Han in the area likely actually live there but the whole thing is set up like a theme park (where Uyghurs got to choose between "reeducation" camp and this, they aren't paid). Ever notice how every single one of these videos has the same basic themes? Going to a market, touting the things sold there, insisting there is no genocide and no concentration camps? It's because the script was written by the local government.
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https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/13/technology/china-propaganda-youtube-influencers.html
It's the second richest country in the world and is a dictatorship, why is this surprising behavior?
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Hmmmm, so they managed to pull together existing assets to do this along with a few more likely obtained through export violations. The real test is if they can develop future nodes and processes while under sanction.
In terms of "jumpstarting" their industry, that's pretty much an unavoidable concequence. And honestly it makes the Chinese government spend this kind of money instead of just riding our coattails and using our own technology to compete against us in temrs of marketshare/business with firms they're propping up
In terms of "jumpstarting" their industry, that's pretty much an unavoidable concequence. And honestly it makes the Chinese government spend this kind of money instead of just riding our coattails and using our own technology to compete against us in temrs of marketshare/business with firms they're propping up
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It actually worked exactly as planned.
For decades, China benefited from the work of the rest of the world, stealing or copying it for their own uses. THAT was stopped by the sanctions, making them have to figure out how to get the stuff they once easily got from others on their own.
They typically DON'T spend billions developing tech. They steal the processes to do it on the cheap. This makes them do the work and spend the money instead.
That's what the sanctions were all about.
As you said, it would be foolishly simplistic to think the result would be anything other than what it was. But they never expected to STOP China from developing these processes. They just didn't want to make it easy for them anymore.
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This was always going to be the end result and what many of us warned will happen.
Chinese independence from American technology is the exact opposite of what we should be aiming for.
We have just ended up creating a major competitor to face in the chip/silicon market while closing ourselves from the largest market in the world.
Essentially these kinds of sanctions are totally counter-productive.
Chinese independence from American technology is the exact opposite of what we should be aiming for.
We have just ended up creating a major competitor to face in the chip/silicon market while closing ourselves from the largest market in the world.
Essentially these kinds of sanctions are totally counter-productive.
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Also, our pitiful H1B/immigration system and China's willingness to pay highly competitive salary means we're losing well qualified tech/STEM grads out of US schools.
Meaning our somewhat tax funded non-profit educational institutions along with our government is also partially contributing in other ways...
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Did our politicians actually believe China would just roll over? This seems like the only possible outcome.
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China is full of dynamic, passionate people working at their absolute hardest to compete on the global stage.
Our attempt to hold them down now when they are becoming a peer competitor just comes off as sour grapes.
I hope now at least the false narrative that China can’t innovate on its own will wither away. EVs, battery tech, ADAS, China is at the forefront of all those technologies.
My question is, what the hell is the EU doing??? Is their entire economy going to be based on delicious food and monuments?
Our attempt to hold them down now when they are becoming a peer competitor just comes off as sour grapes.
I hope now at least the false narrative that China can’t innovate on its own will wither away. EVs, battery tech, ADAS, China is at the forefront of all those technologies.
My question is, what the hell is the EU doing??? Is their entire economy going to be based on delicious food and monuments?
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Sure. And 10,000 monkeys sitting at typewriters long enough may hypothetically crank out Shakespeare. Never mind that China keeps getting caught stealing.
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It won't surprise if some restricted machines and spare parts bypassed the sactions. I wouldn't necessarily jump to accuse the manufacturers though.
Most export control on order entries consists of End Use Statements (EUS) from the customer plus some due diligence (e.g. cross checking the US's "entity list" and making sure the customer exists). I suspect a nation such as China, with motivation, could easily establish legit-looking offshore "shell' entities in non-restricted locations that are allowed to receive this sort of equipment. Sure, they'd have to smuggle it back across some borders and keep the suppliers in the dark (if they ever want to order more) but that again doesn't seem crazy for a determined China.
There are big penalties for violating sanctions for export controls but a shell company won't care about the consequences if they're caught. From their view they're patriots doing good work.
Most export control on order entries consists of End Use Statements (EUS) from the customer plus some due diligence (e.g. cross checking the US's "entity list" and making sure the customer exists). I suspect a nation such as China, with motivation, could easily establish legit-looking offshore "shell' entities in non-restricted locations that are allowed to receive this sort of equipment. Sure, they'd have to smuggle it back across some borders and keep the suppliers in the dark (if they ever want to order more) but that again doesn't seem crazy for a determined China.
There are big penalties for violating sanctions for export controls but a shell company won't care about the consequences if they're caught. From their view they're patriots doing good work.
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The chip is also an ARM design and they overclocked the hell out of it. So it is not even a chinese design.
They are off "cutting edege" by quite a few years, still. It turns out unlimited money does not give you unlimited technology.
The chip is also overclocked, pulling 13 Watt. Almost double of what other top end chips draw.
PS. Those claiming SMIC did not steal intellectual property: They literally lost a lawsuit on it in 2009 against TSMC. They settled it after they lost it, already.
I would worry when they start building their own lithography machines. Those are the bottleneck. For now they are buying as many old ones, as they can.
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a shit ton of money, respected positions, sometimes with a whole new life (like new GF/wife). if you haven't heard of these stories, they get pretty wild - especially for Taiwanese, Japanese and Koreans...
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You're right, there are plenty of educated people in China that would love to compete on the world stage. They aren't the problem, their government's policies are (notably their lax approach to intellectual property protections and extreme corruption).
Why innovate when your competitor can steal your work and undercut you? It happens all the time inside of China.
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Sure... they stole it, obviously. Just like the rest of their home grown stuff, pry open the firmware and you'll see Qualcomm, micron, intel, amd, tsmc, etc.
I see the CCP stooges are deployed already lol. Quick tip, if yme or const are claiming something isn't true, it is. I think it was yme that posted the most bizzare tourist propaganda video Ive ever seen to "prove the uyghurs are all living happily" while ignoring comically invompetant video everyone has seen of the youtuber having a forced show put on with a army of CCP officials peering in the windows and out the literal closets while the Muslim kid was crying in terror the whole time. Oh, and the videos of them simply getting gunned down in the streets by the army.
China is a autocratic nation on its last hurrah, you don't start planning invading neighbors when you are stable. You don't steal everyone's tech when you are capable. You don't have your best talent staying in the US if you have a government worth living under. You don't support Terrorist Russia if you have a worthy leader and ideals. Period. No amount of disinformatzya will ever change that.
Whatever whataboutism they toss up, just remember mocking their theft hurts their precious pride, that everyone knows it was stolen bothers them. Much like the SVR pukes, the difference between the inevitable whining about the US and China/Russia is that the US is backed by a global majority, while not denying or hiding the truth of its historical atrocities.
A simple test, like I love for the SVR. Only a great nation can say that their leader is a incompetent fool and dark history is real. Biden is a poo poo head and the natives suffered under the Manifest Destiny. Now... SVR, say that Putin is a sissy boy losing his genocide in Ukraine. CCP, the Tienamen Square massacre was a demonstration of the CCP not caring about the people and only personal wealth and power.
They can't, because their system of government sucks donkies. It also shows they can only ever argue from a place of bad faith. They are villans, denying the truth their tyrants are terrified of. That will forever prove they are on "the wrong side". Watch, their response will be to ignore or discredit. Pathetic professional stooges. Sad, really, selling out for lies.
I see the CCP stooges are deployed already lol. Quick tip, if yme or const are claiming something isn't true, it is. I think it was yme that posted the most bizzare tourist propaganda video Ive ever seen to "prove the uyghurs are all living happily" while ignoring comically invompetant video everyone has seen of the youtuber having a forced show put on with a army of CCP officials peering in the windows and out the literal closets while the Muslim kid was crying in terror the whole time. Oh, and the videos of them simply getting gunned down in the streets by the army.
China is a autocratic nation on its last hurrah, you don't start planning invading neighbors when you are stable. You don't steal everyone's tech when you are capable. You don't have your best talent staying in the US if you have a government worth living under. You don't support Terrorist Russia if you have a worthy leader and ideals. Period. No amount of disinformatzya will ever change that.
Whatever whataboutism they toss up, just remember mocking their theft hurts their precious pride, that everyone knows it was stolen bothers them. Much like the SVR pukes, the difference between the inevitable whining about the US and China/Russia is that the US is backed by a global majority, while not denying or hiding the truth of its historical atrocities.
A simple test, like I love for the SVR. Only a great nation can say that their leader is a incompetent fool and dark history is real. Biden is a poo poo head and the natives suffered under the Manifest Destiny. Now... SVR, say that Putin is a sissy boy losing his genocide in Ukraine. CCP, the Tienamen Square massacre was a demonstration of the CCP not caring about the people and only personal wealth and power.
They can't, because their system of government sucks donkies. It also shows they can only ever argue from a place of bad faith. They are villans, denying the truth their tyrants are terrified of. That will forever prove they are on "the wrong side". Watch, their response will be to ignore or discredit. Pathetic professional stooges. Sad, really, selling out for lies.
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Wait what? They pulled this off using equipment they got from the West. What uniquely Chinese technology innovation do you see here?
Even with battery tech, I don't know of any major breakthroughs that have come out of China. They appear to mostly be doing the factory production for tech designed elsewhere. What major battery tech are you saying China developed?
Also, the EU is the only place currently able to manufacture the advanced lithography machines literally every chip maker on the globe uses (including these Chinese chips).
I'll agree they were super-scrappy to pull this off, but let's not give them credit for crap they didn't do.
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Not anywhere near the level that it happens inside China. If someone steals your design in the west, you can sue them and have some chance of restoring your business. In China unless you've bribed the right people they'll ignore you.
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Oh yeah, a little bit of genocide is all the world needs for "progress" huh? Listen to yourself ffs... thats the exact same message the Soviets, GLF and Hitler used! There is no "benefit" to a social engine that requires mass murder to function. Not the imaginary type, but the "work in this mine for the state until you die" or "welp, you can't reform so you get to be fuel" type of oppression.
Why are people suddenly okay with these people!?!? This isn't ancient history like these losers try to compare to, this is TODAY, and it's sickening seeing people excusing it because they get a iPhone out of it...
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I'm pretty sure everyone realizes there are modern, growing cities in China.
Speaking for myself, with over a million Uighurs in literal concentration camps ... so fucking what?
Also, that video was hilariously obvious Chinese propaganda.
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Crying Croc
Ars Praetorian
It did. And still does, to a much lesser extent. Here's how it works.
If you are a poor, backward society with precious few resources... you try to take all the short cuts you can. Japan used to copy. Then Taiwan and S. Korea. All were notorious back in their day. But not so much today. So what happened? They all became more decent people?? Or simple Economics at work?
Countries with little intellectual property of their own tend to enforce intellectual property laws only half heartedly. Why beat up tiny embryonic domestic startup's struggling to stand on their own on behalf of giant foreign businesses? But by and by, domestic companies begin to grow in stature and sophistication. And they begin to pay taxes too. No coincidence at all, but it is at around this time that governments will start enforcing intellectual property (and other) laws - more and more in line with advanced economies. Because now, there actually is something worthwhile domestically to protect!
Your understanding of China is now at least 10 years behind. Google up reputable sources of the number of patents Chinese companies are now filing. Quantity does not denote quality or sophistication. But still a good sign that Chinese companies now have property they deem worthy of protection! Huawei was not sanctioned because it was caught stealing. It was sanctioned because we got alarmed at how fast it (and others) are growing in size and sophistication.
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Bear in mind China has been known to employ intelligence operations that involve comment-board activity to shape the narrative on issues close to the Chinese government. It seems difficult to imagine an issue closer to the Chinese government than this.
When addressing obvious propaganda, don't assume you are talking to someone from the West.
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China is also notorious for patent and paper packing. Many of them are low-quality but they know that international organizations will pick them up and hype China. For reference research papers and patents vary widely in terms of quality in all countries, simply having a patent or writing a research paper doesn't mean much of anything.
Huawei wasn't caught stealing, it was caught selling US computers/components to Iran.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ng-prohibited-u-s-gear-to-iran-idUSKBN20P1VA/
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Well, at least that's some improvements compared to people claiming "millions of minorities are being killed or imprisoned in China".
But, the videos, including the one I posted and many many more taken in Xinjiang, just debunk your accusation. Take a closer look at them, you'll find:
- Most of the signs in the street are displayed in both Han Chinese and Uyghur language.
- Uyghurs can speak Uyghur language freely everywhere. (It's probably not that easy to tell in these videos as most travelers use Han Chinese to communicate with locals. Han Chinese and foreigners rarely choose to learn Uyghur language only for a short trip to Xinjiang. But it doesn't mean they don't respect their language.)
- Many people are openly wearing Uyghur traditional costumes (7:57 of the video). Uyghur costumes are also openly being sold in shops, either for daily wearing or as travel souvenirs.
- Uyghur traditional foods are openly available in restaurants in the street.
And there are more things you can verify by yourself from where you are:
- Publications in Uyghur languages are openly available in offline and online stores in China, like dictionaries teaching Uyghur languages.
https://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?abbucket=2&id=668922978605&ns=1&spm=a21n57.1.0.0.2d45523cek7d80https://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?abbucket=2&id=38744059540&ns=1&spm=a21n57.1.0.0.2d45523cek7d80- “[GB/T 21669-2008] Information technology -- Uyghur, Kazak and Kirghiz coded character set” The national standard of digitizing Uyghur, Kazak and Kirghiz languages. Why set up a national standard in the digital age if you want to prevent people from learning these languages?
https://openstd.samr.gov.cn/bzgk/gb/newGbInfo?hcno=0E186E72C798CF977CEFEC297A620841- The official announcement of the official local holidays in Xinjiang in 2023:
https://www.ts.cn/xwzx/shxw/202212/t20221228_10814295.shtmlYou can find two Muslim holidays 肉孜节 (Eid al-Fitr) and 古尔邦节 (Eid al-Adha) in the list. They are for the minorities in western regions. Han Chinese don't enjoy these holidays in eastern China provinces. Why make it any official holiday if the government wants to eliminate such culture?
The list goes on and on. As a Chinese, I beg you, before you believe all anti-China propaganda and make any judgements, could you please please visit China and verify what you have heard by yourself? If that's infeasible, at least browse the internet from different sources and listen to what "the other side" say.
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Oh yeah, I'm keenly familiar with disinformatzya. You'll see me slapping around the stooges for fun from time to time lol. Sadly, a lot of times, they are domestic. Although a lot of times they are just a operative living abroad so they can ping on the local culture and not appear too obvious. You'll see them get real quiet for a bit when I come around because I love to try forcing them to acknowledge things that will get them jailed and face the evil of their governments first hand lol.
I'm honestly not too worried about them having influence, but disinformatyza can only be defeated by trumpeting the truth repeatedly in its face. Arsians don't typically fall for their BS, but I've seen the Croc line a bit too much recently where willful ignorance of genocidal behavior of a modern society are "okay" so long as the end result is utopic. Way too close to Ruski-Mir or any number of actual murder fueled societies for me...
The end goal for them is to normalize their behavior globally.
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Crying Croc
Ars Praetorian
That's a whole another can of worms. I actually have a problem with any one country dictating to everyone else whom they may or may not trade with. This will come back to bite us, I fear.
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