Google Fiber beats AT&T in Nashville, wins vote for quicker expansion

AT&T likely to sue Nashville over rule providing quick access to utility poles.

Read the whole story

 

[THavoc]

Officials in Nashville, Tennessee have voted to give Google Fiber faster access to utility poles, approving an ordinance opposed by AT&T and Comcast. AT&T has already said it would likely sue the city if it implements the new rule.

<<sigh>>

Really? Why am I not surprised?

It's competition. It's coming soon. Deal with it.

 

[ten91]

Calling it now.
If this gets approved, AT&T's service is gonna start failing all over Nashville and they'll blame Google despite some of the failings happening in areas where Google isn't even working on.

 

[Random John Smith Guy]

Perhaps we should just have the government seize all the poles. I'm pretty sure that the government can maintain the poles if they can run the roads, and allow fair access to anyone.

 

[Mike Bridge]

ten91[/url]":m8l920by]Calling it now.
If this gets approved, AT&T's service is gonna start failing all over Nashville and they'll blame Google despite some of the failings happening in areas where Google isn't even working on.

IIRC, google won't be moving wires themselves, the attachers on the poles have to provide lists of certified construction crews to move the attachers wires, so once the pole is approved by the pole owner, the company that submitted the request hires those crews (at the submitter's cost) to move the attachers wires. So AT&T just has to not approve any construction crews for the work and they'll continue to stall competition.

 

[windnwar]

Typical obstruction by a company to prevent competition. AT&T and the others are already there, so they don't have to worry about it slowing themselves down, and it makes the roll out of any new provider as slow and tedious as possible, for no apparent reason. Next thing you'll see is them introduce state level legislation banning 1 touch make ready agreements, "in the name of protecting the infrastructure".

 

[Statistical]

Anyone think it is crazy that the city of Nashville holds three votes on the same topic before it passes. Still two down, one to go. Keep it up Google.

The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.

 

[dlux]

AT&T has already said it would likely sue the city if it implements the new rule.

Why doesn't AT&T just declare war on all competition and start taking out their CEOs? And hell, the FCC while they're at it?

We're wasting time on this when we could be living under warlords and dictators and the trains will run on time, dammit!

 

[Uxorious]

"The second-reading vote does not guarantee the policy will pass on its third and final reading, but the second vote is generally considered the most critical in front of Nashville Metro Council,"

So, it takes the city council in Nashville 3 times to comprehend issues presented for a decision, really?

The first time, everyone is asleep as the junior member reads the proposal, and if controversial they finally wake up and realize they had better pay attention the second time around?

What is the point of the 3^rd reading, to give lobbyists a chance to change their minds after registering a vote in opposition to their interests?


Edit: Ninja'd by @Statistical...

 

[Deleted member 192806]

Officials in Nashville, Tennessee have voted to give Google Fiber faster access to utility poles, approving an ordinance opposed by AT&T and Comcast. AT&T has already said it would likely sue the city if it implements the new rule.

32 to 7 and AT&T still doesn't get the message. Cities want high speed broadband! You're not delivering.

 

[Deleted member 192806]

Statistical[/url]":2r0uv64r]Anyone think it is crazy that the city of Nashville holds three votes on the same topic before it passes. Still two down, one to go. Keep it up Google.

The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.

The fact that it ended up the way it did says volumes.

 

[marius0]

Ostracus[/url]":2y79kxsi]

Officials in Nashville, Tennessee have voted to give Google Fiber faster access to utility poles, approving an ordinance opposed by AT&T and Comcast. AT&T has already said it would likely sue the city if it implements the new rule.

32 to 7 and AT&T still doesn't get the message. Cities want high speed broadband! You're not delivering.

They get it.

And the answer is No.

 

[sprout]

Random John Smith Guy[/url]":2qsomc8c]Perhaps we should just have the government seize all the poles. I'm pretty sure that the government can maintain the poles if they can run the roads, and allow fair access to anyone.

Good thing this isn't in Michigan then, because then all of the poles would be falling into the ground and randomly trip people as they walk pass.

 

[Iphtashu Fitz]

THavoc[/url]":cvkegtk1]

<<sigh>>

Really? Why am I not surprised?

It's competition. Deal with it.

It's AT&T and Comcast. Their idea of competition is to have their lawyers deal with it.

 

[jasonridesabike]

Random John Smith Guy[/url]":1lytr2ft]Perhaps we should just have the government seize all the poles. I'm pretty sure that the government can maintain the poles if they can run the roads, and allow fair access to anyone.

From the article the government does own these poles. Nashville Electric is public (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville ... ic_Service).

I'd like to see this law rolled out federally, providing it sticks harsh penalties to any company that fudges up the competitions cables in the process, payable to the fudged cable owners. Also, some large fines for provably frivolous claims.

edit: I realized after posting that maybe you already knew about Nashville poles and were just suggesting the same for the rest of the country. I agree.

 

[jmauro]

Mike Bridge[/url]":q8w8azrz]

ten91[/url]":q8w8azrz]Calling it now.
If this gets approved, AT&T's service is gonna start failing all over Nashville and they'll blame Google despite some of the failings happening in areas where Google isn't even working on.

IIRC, google won't be moving wires themselves, the attachers on the poles have to provide lists of certified construction crews to move the attachers wires, so once the pole is approved by the pole owner, the company that submitted the request hires those crews (at the submitter's cost) to move the attachers wires. So AT&T just has to not approve any construction crews for the work and they'll continue to stall competition.

The problem is if there are no approved crews AT&T cannot repair, move or replace any of the lines either. They'll be stuck with a broken set of connections as they break from normal wear and tear.

 

[Boskone]

THavoc[/url]"jqcf5yw]

Officials in Nashville, Tennessee have voted to give Google Fiber faster access to utility poles, approving an ordinance opposed by AT&T and Comcast. AT&T has already said it would likely sue the city if it implements the new rule.

<<sigh>>

Really? Why am I not surprised?

It's competition. Deal with it.

Well...they are dealing with it, by trying to make it stop.

They choose about the most assholish method of dealing with it, though.

 

[frelled]

Must be nice to be a part of the oligarchy. Restrict municipal networks, restrict access to polls to avoid competing, add data caps to services and charge hefty overage fees, take government money to provide rural and minority access but never actually provide said access, ... , and the list goes on. The shareholders must love AT&T these days.

 

[KingZarkon]

Random John Smith Guy[/url]":z79mmyjl]Perhaps we should just have the government seize all the poles. I'm pretty sure that the government can maintain the poles if they can run the roads, and allow fair access to anyone.

The government (through Nashville Electric Service) DOES own the poles, or most of them anyways.

 

[the_frakker]

On one hand, you're giving permission for someone to mess with someone else's equipment without knowledge of how the change might affect the network it's attached to.

On the other hand, we're talking about moving wires out of the way and adding new ones. Not exactly much room for error there.

 

[shawn_dude]

Iphtashu Fitz[/url]":161m80t4]

THavoc[/url]":161m80t4]

<<sigh>>

Really? Why am I not surprised?

It's competition. Deal with it.

It's AT&T and Comcast. Their idea of competition is to have their lawyers deal with it.

Well, from a pure cost perspective, it's far, far cheaper to win short term delays in competition through your corporate legal team than it is to upgrade an entire city to fiber optic broadband. It is rational (and frustratingly douchey) behavior.

 

[shawn_dude]

the_frakker[/url]":hkmynvzs]On one hand, you're giving permission for someone to mess with someone else's equipment without knowledge of how the change might affect the network it's attached to.

On the other hand, we're talking about moving wires out of the way and adding new ones. Not exactly much room for error there.

The "third hand" was cooperation. AT&T chose to avoid that in order to extend the time it can collect high margin profits with little to no system upgrade costs.

Note to cities: own your poles and lease space on them. Don't get lazy and have AT&T or others insert the poles for you.

 

[TheHecubank]

Statistical[/url]":78xiq7i4]Anyone think it is crazy that the city of Nashville holds three votes on the same topic before it passes. Still two down, one to go. Keep it up Google.

The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.

Like many things, it may seem odd if you don't dig further. The 3 reading system is used heavily in the US (as well as in the UK and commonwealth democracies).

The first reading is the initial introduction of the bill to the body. In some bodies, first reading can consist solely of reading the title of the bill. When votes are involved, they are generally pro forma - legislatures generally shouldn't be in the business of refusing to consider a bill brought by a member.

Second reading varies by whether specialized committee phases come before or after, but as a general rule this is where the horse trading is done: amendments, ear-marks, etc.. It ain't pretty, but it's how the sausage gets made.

Final reading is formal vote to pass the polished, agreed-upon version of the bill.

 

[rho180]

ten91[/url]":1s9qkazo]Calling it now.
If this gets approved, AT&T's service is gonna start failing all over Nashville and they'll blame Google despite some of the failings happening in areas where Google isn't even working on.

And if AT&T gets an injunction stopping this, one of their VPs will write another condescending blog post mocking Google for continuing to underestimate how difficult it is to provide broadband service.

 

[Tiernoc]

I am cautiously optimistic about this making it through the Tennessee government, although I wonder if it will survive the court challenge.

Hopefully with those multiple readings they are looking to see whether the law as written will stand up to the inevitable court challenge and head off any obvious deficiencies before ever being finalized.

It's obvious that more choice and competition will be good for the people of Nashville, and Comcast, AT&T, et all, can go pound sand.

 

[fellow human]

I suspect and really hope that ATT's ridiculous diatribe the other day contributed to this outcome.

 

[flybynight]

Seems like every day there's some news story about AT&T being utter dickheads.

This is literally why we can't have nice things.

 

[ten91]

jmauro[/url]":13muwp4i]

Mike Bridge[/url]":13muwp4i]

ten91[/url]":13muwp4i]Calling it now.
If this gets approved, AT&T's service is gonna start failing all over Nashville and they'll blame Google despite some of the failings happening in areas where Google isn't even working on.

IIRC, google won't be moving wires themselves, the attachers on the poles have to provide lists of certified construction crews to move the attachers wires, so once the pole is approved by the pole owner, the company that submitted the request hires those crews (at the submitter's cost) to move the attachers wires. So AT&T just has to not approve any construction crews for the work and they'll continue to stall competition.

The problem is if there are no approved crews AT&T cannot repair, move or replace any of the lines either. They'll be stuck with a broken set of connections as they break from normal wear and tear.

Google could try to hire the contractors AT&T is using. Then AT&T either has to let them do the job or say the people they have contracts with to maintain the poles aren't qualified.

 

[FireWraith]

dlux[/url]":22shpe59]

AT&T has already said it would likely sue the city if it implements the new rule.

Why doesn't AT&T just declare war on all competition and start taking out their CEOs? And hell, the FCC while they're at it?

We're wasting time on this when we could be living under warlords and dictators and the trains will run on time, dammit!

Only if you sign up for the Express Train package, with the added fee for to-the-minute service. Otherwise, you get Standard Ultimate Service, with unlimited* On-Time** service.

*Ride as much as you want - One ride per month included standard, additional rides cost $99.99 per ride.
**Trains will depart and arrive sometime between the hours of 8-11am or 1-5pm.

 

[P W]

"When you can't innovate, ligitagate."

 

[THavoc]

ten91[/url]":34mqaz45]

jmauro[/url]":34mqaz45]

Mike Bridge[/url]":34mqaz45]

ten91[/url]":34mqaz45]Calling it now.
If this gets approved, AT&T's service is gonna start failing all over Nashville and they'll blame Google despite some of the failings happening in areas where Google isn't even working on.

IIRC, google won't be moving wires themselves, the attachers on the poles have to provide lists of certified construction crews to move the attachers wires, so once the pole is approved by the pole owner, the company that submitted the request hires those crews (at the submitter's cost) to move the attachers wires. So AT&T just has to not approve any construction crews for the work and they'll continue to stall competition.

The problem is if there are no approved crews AT&T cannot repair, move or replace any of the lines either. They'll be stuck with a broken set of connections as they break from normal wear and tear.

Google could try to hire the contractors AT&T is using. Then AT&T either has to let them do the job or say the people they have contracts with to maintain the poles aren't qualified.

Given the amount of qualified techs in any area, they probably already are the same ones AT&T is using.

 

[AlexisR200X]

Ideally the FCC would step in and monitor the situation closely to catch any funny business on the part of AT&T. Its a travesty that a company can openly threaten a city if they don't get whatever they want. Its just a sign they are way too big for the regulator to manage effectively.

 

[sdoorex]

Random John Smith Guy[/url]":2hb9tpht]Perhaps we should just have the government seize all the poles. I'm pretty sure that the government can maintain the poles if they can run the roads, and allow fair access to anyone.

Maybe it would be even better if the government owned the poles, underground conduits, and the fiber to each residence and business and sold access (at cost) to ISPs that could resell service. Then each location would have a single access point to maintain and could choose from any number of ISPs.

 

[petergaultney]

Thanks for the ongoing coverage of this, Ars.

Is there any chance you could get a legal expert in to report more in-depth on the legal challenge side of this? From a consumer standpoint, AT&T's lawsuit in Louisville sounds completely bogus, but obviously things are never really that simple in the legal world.

 

[AdeptusIgnus]

THavoc[/url]":1w03x0sc]

ten91[/url]":1w03x0sc]

jmauro[/url]":1w03x0sc]

Mike Bridge[/url]":1w03x0sc]

ten91[/url]":1w03x0sc]Calling it now.
If this gets approved, AT&T's service is gonna start failing all over Nashville and they'll blame Google despite some of the failings happening in areas where Google isn't even working on.

IIRC, google won't be moving wires themselves, the attachers on the poles have to provide lists of certified construction crews to move the attachers wires, so once the pole is approved by the pole owner, the company that submitted the request hires those crews (at the submitter's cost) to move the attachers wires. So AT&T just has to not approve any construction crews for the work and they'll continue to stall competition.

The problem is if there are no approved crews AT&T cannot repair, move or replace any of the lines either. They'll be stuck with a broken set of connections as they break from normal wear and tear.

Google could try to hire the contractors AT&T is using. Then AT&T either has to let them do the job or say the people they have contracts with to maintain the poles aren't qualified.

Given the amount of qualified techs in any area, they probably already are the same ones AT&T is using.

Nashville is growing so fast we have tons of qualified workers, and still need more.

My office has trouble hiring electricians because what we can offer is set by a head office, and we keep getting prospects scooped up by higher bidders.

Even people we have fired with cause end up working elsewhere within 2 weeks.

 

[Deleted member 1]

TheHecubank[/url]":1a7kv6fq]

Statistical[/url]":1a7kv6fq]Anyone think it is crazy that the city of Nashville holds three votes on the same topic before it passes. Still two down, one to go. Keep it up Google.

The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.

Like many things, it may seem odd if you don't dig further. The 3 reading system is used heavily in the US (as well as in the UK and commonwealth democracies).

The first reading is the initial introduction of the bill to the body. In some bodies, first reading can consist solely of reading the title of the bill. When votes are involved, they are generally pro forma - legislatures generally shouldn't be in the business of refusing to consider a bill brought by a member.

Second reading varies by whether specialized committee phases come before or after, but as a general rule this is where the horse trading is done: amendments, ear-marks, etc.. It ain't pretty, but it's how the sausage gets made.

Final reading is formal vote to pass the polished, agreed-upon version of the bill.

A system where a bill is considered multiple times avoids bills like the Affordable Healthcare Act. Where its thousands of pages long, where edits to the bill itself are being made at the elventh hour, and where partically nobody reads the darn thing before its passed.

At least there stands a good chance the city council will read something if it comes up twice before.

 

[mx-1979]

This isn't completely without issues:
- how to make sure best practices are obeyd, when handling wiring, not just doing it cheapest way (material, quality of work etc)?
- documenting changes and providing it to other cable owners?
- issues caused for servicing cables, for example compatiblity if different parts are used for moving?

Competition is definitely good thing, but this looks like Goole just wants do it fast and dirty.

 

[Deleted member 1]

sdoorex[/url]":39pysh8q]

Random John Smith Guy[/url]":39pysh8q]Perhaps we should just have the government seize all the poles. I'm pretty sure that the government can maintain the poles if they can run the roads, and allow fair access to anyone.

Maybe it would be even better if the government owned the poles, underground conduits, and the fiber to each residence and business and sold access (at cost) to ISPs that could resell service. Then each location would have a single access point to maintain and could choose from any number of ISPs.

That leads you into the delimia of City or County ownership though.

My parents house is within the boundry of the County, but our neighboors have City water, but we had our septic tank. Because they were on county water they could get away with not getting city water.

So who would own the tap in my parents case? The city or the county?

 

[TenderBabyMeat]

Maybe this is just a strange illustration of how my brain works (or doesn't), but I really have to chuckle ironically after breaking down what is actually happening...

AT&T is threatening to sue the city if they pass this ordinance = AT&T is threatening to sue their own/potential customers. Really, that's what it all boils down to. It's perhaps one thing when the laws and regulations are taking place at a federal level, afterall the degree of separation from any given geographical location is in most cases fairly far removed. Less so at a state level. But at the city level, even if it's a larger city like Nashville, the people that comprise the councils that pass the ordinances ARE the people that live there. They and their constituents are affected directly in their daily lives by the laws and ordinances they put in place. They ARE the City. The fact that 7 people on that council have thus far voted against themselves having more ISP options is baffling to me.

So in effect, AT&T will be suing their own customers into forcing them to be or remain their customers. Kind of makes me think of the mafia extorting money from businesses for 'protection'... from the mafia.

 

[rho180]

sdoorex[/url]":eab0s0vp]

Random John Smith Guy[/url]":eab0s0vp]Perhaps we should just have the government seize all the poles. I'm pretty sure that the government can maintain the poles if they can run the roads, and allow fair access to anyone.

Maybe it would be even better if the government owned the poles, underground conduits, and the fiber to each residence and business and sold access (at cost) to ISPs that could resell service. Then each location would have a single access point to maintain and could choose from any number of ISPs.

This is kind of what it's like in Canada. The CRTC requires the big telecoms to make their last mile infrastructure available for lease to third party ISPs. Unfortunately, the big incumbents have continuously pushed for more and more favourable/onerous (depending on your POV) lease terms, such that third party ISPs have never really carved out more than a niche segment of the market.