Gloomhaven: Jaws of the Lion makes the megahit more accessible
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Played a lot of Gloomhaven. Have no desire to play more of it.
It was a good social game to play with friends but I consider it an average game, at best. It’s heavily prone to quarterbacking and setup/gameplay takes forever (and we even use a helper app to not mess with the monster cards). The classes are interesting, right up until you want to retire and find yourself trapped in your class because you can’t complete its quest. Worse yet, you’re in a class you love and can’t avoid your personal quest, are required to retire the character you love, sell their shit, and start all over.
Don’t get sucked into the hype: Gloomhaven demands a digital version (its being made) because the bulk of your time is setup, tear down, quest tracking, and drawing monster cards. That reminds me, the monster AI is pretty bad and easy to manipulate.
It was a good social game to play with friends but I consider it an average game, at best. It’s heavily prone to quarterbacking and setup/gameplay takes forever (and we even use a helper app to not mess with the monster cards). The classes are interesting, right up until you want to retire and find yourself trapped in your class because you can’t complete its quest. Worse yet, you’re in a class you love and can’t avoid your personal quest, are required to retire the character you love, sell their shit, and start all over.
Don’t get sucked into the hype: Gloomhaven demands a digital version (its being made) because the bulk of your time is setup, tear down, quest tracking, and drawing monster cards. That reminds me, the monster AI is pretty bad and easy to manipulate.
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My brother and I are about a third of the way into Jaws of the Lion, and this review feels very true to our experience. We had been looking at getting the original Gloomhaven a few weeks back, and were briefly stymied by Amazon saying that Gloomhaven was too large to ship to our local dropoff locker. A friend mentioned that there was a smaller, cheaper, simpler prequel and we decided to jump on that. Now, I feel this was clearly the right decision. I don't feel at all short changed on the promise that Gloomhaven would be a large and complex game.
Speaking of the complexity, the 5 piece tutorial did quite a good job of getting us oriented, and introducing mechanics at a pace that kept things from being totally overwhelming. It reminded me of the tutorial levels in Portal, which were extensively tested and ensured new players couldn't advance without learning critical information. In Jaws of the Lion, they include special low power/complexity cards to start with, and a limited rule set, which they progress over the tutorial. They also commissioned an accompanying set of video tutorials for each of the 5 initial levels.
Speaking of the complexity, the 5 piece tutorial did quite a good job of getting us oriented, and introducing mechanics at a pace that kept things from being totally overwhelming. It reminded me of the tutorial levels in Portal, which were extensively tested and ensured new players couldn't advance without learning critical information. In Jaws of the Lion, they include special low power/complexity cards to start with, and a limited rule set, which they progress over the tutorial. They also commissioned an accompanying set of video tutorials for each of the 5 initial levels.
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It's impressive how much misinformation is packed in here.
Quarterbacking - the game is designed to limit this by having guidelines on table talk, initiatives selected privately, personal combat objectives and personal quests. Sure, once cards are revealed you can plan a turn but you also don't have to(and it's often fruitless since cards are locked in and you don't know what the game state is gonna be after a few actions).
Setup for sure takes time - interstingly this comment is posted under a review of JotL while completely solves that time suck with a streamlined setup method that was so successful it is being made into an option for Frosthaven.
Class retirements - you get to choose between one of two personal quests, some are short, some are long. Ultimately it's your cardboard, make a houserule if you need to. If you retire and don't want to, you can absolutely remake the character instead of starting a new one. Gloomhaven is legit less fun at level 9, tons of fun comes from leveling and unlocking stuff. Embrace that path instead of whining that you're at level 9 with nothing to do.
Not to say you HAVE TO like Gloomhaven, it's not for everyone, but these complaints scream of pedantry and at times, just not having the rules right. Also weird to whine about having to flip over monster cards but also saying you used Helper App (who I should be promoted by Isaac since it smoothes out that fiddly aspect).
If you like dungeon crawlers and want character variety and a long campaign, get Gloomhaven. If you aren't sure if you will like it - get JotL, it's a beautiful trimming of Gloomhaven to make it more accessible.
I've played the base game with a group for over a year. My wife, who doesn't okay games often, has done a JotL campaign with me and loved it.
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This looks intriguing as a "Gloomhaven Lite". For anyone that loves Gloomhaven but dreads setup and cleanup, there is a phenomenal Tabletop Simulator version that even has all the major steps automated. I cannot recommend it highly enough.
I own the physical version, along with the Broken Token organizer set, but I've migrated most of my sessions to Tabletop Simulator just due to ease of use. Even if you are a purist (this IS Ars Cardboard), you can still use the Gloomhaven Helper app, which is an offical app that Isaac recommends.
I own the physical version, along with the Broken Token organizer set, but I've migrated most of my sessions to Tabletop Simulator just due to ease of use. Even if you are a purist (this IS Ars Cardboard), you can still use the Gloomhaven Helper app, which is an offical app that Isaac recommends.
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The TTS versions are pretty impressive, Im a good ways into a campaign with one. But there is definitely still some fiddly bits to manage. And you still need to make yourself familiar with most of the rules. And it still requires a massive (virtual) table, lots of zooming
The timing of the article is a crazy co-incidence though
The EarlyAccess Gloomhaven game on Steam just released a large patch, with multiplayer, and a sale, so I broke down and bought it.
I find it very impressive so far. It's Gloomhaven PLAY, without the Gloomhaven housekeeping.
It's not a 'video' game, but it does fully manage and automate all the tedious tokens and status tracking. There are other benefits (and downsides) but Im just pointing out its existence, not trying to hype for it. (And this is ArsCARDBOARD, as OnTheNuts mentioned)
I think between all the versions now available, there is an option for anyone (disclaimer; I dont own all of them
)-Some folks love all the management of stats/hp/gold/etc and physically moving all the tokens and monster cards.
-Some folks love the battles and '2card' system, but hate all of the tedious tracking
I am personally loving the Steam version, but I don't think there is a 'best' version. Thats up to preference.
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Did you find the videos useful? We played the first three last night and couldn’t tell if we were playing right and ended up house-ruling a little. For example, can you, like D&D, break up a move action? We decided no.
I liked the slow introduction of ideas like Long Rest, although it was strange to struggle a little on 2 and blow through 3 (well, except for the guy who blocked the last doorway).
All in all we had a great time and I’m looking forward to playing again.
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It looks like it would be a great taster, you could always get the full thing if this one gets played out and you want more.
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Yes, definitely. I’ve played both and the tutorial aspect of JotL can be useful for new players.
There will still be some occasions when you may need to consult a faq or whatnot
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Regarding the number of classes in Gloomhaven, the creator's description of the product says there are six starting classes and 11 unlockable classes, for a total of 17. Statements to the contrary should be consigned to the dust. It's not a spoiler and this article should be corrected.
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Interesting.
And while we're talking about board games: Am I the only one who's getting slightly annoyed at how all interesting games plays 4 people, or maybe sometimes 5? I recently got Dune, which is great at 6, but it's too heavy for some people (and one guy in my group in particular, he just refuse to play it, which is fine). So we're deeply looking into 6 player games (that isn't Lovecraft) and it's quite hard.
And while we're talking about board games: Am I the only one who's getting slightly annoyed at how all interesting games plays 4 people, or maybe sometimes 5? I recently got Dune, which is great at 6, but it's too heavy for some people (and one guy in my group in particular, he just refuse to play it, which is fine). So we're deeply looking into 6 player games (that isn't Lovecraft) and it's quite hard.
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The logic model for the original game is a staggering achievement all by itself, but I also had so much fun, I found myself researching card and AI interactions in the downtime. I haven't played JotL but if it's success propels Isaac to publish more content then I wish it well.
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I've personally found that larger playgroups work best with games that offer simultaneous turns. 7 Wonders being my typical example. With expansions it supports up to 8 people and the play time doesn't drastically increase with player count.
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Firefly The Board Game (Gale Force Nine) is pretty fun with six players though you will need at a minimum the Esmeralda and Jetwash expansions for it to support six players. I personally have never played it with more than four players with out using multiple other expansions as well. I am also a huge Firefly fan so if you or you game group are not you may find less enjoyment.
Edit: Full size Gloomhavem can also be modded to play with six players. I have done 1 off small custom dungeons with as many as 8 people, it's a bit challenging to make it difficult with that many players but I never put much effort into it, I am sure it could be done.
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We went all-in via the Frosthaven Kickstarter, backing (more of pre-order these days on KS) Frosthaven (2021 release) along with picking up Gloomhaven and its Expansion.
By the time Gloomhaven got to us in July, JotL was about to release to local game stores, so we started on that.
Having played Gloomhaven once only, JotL as described in the article does a great job over the first 5 scenarios introducing all the concepts. You even use some cards only for 1-2 scenarios to keep things as basic as possible to start, before the same cards are replaced with better versions of themselves that have one concept to learn.
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Our biggest complaints is referencing back to rules. The Learn the Play book writes things one way, the Glossary another way. The same information seems to be all there, but its not easy to find unless you know the keyword they wrote it under. If you don't play for a week its easy to forget certain things, like negating damage through lost cards or characters, not any figures, are the only ones to do end of turn looting on their space.
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Someone made a nice list in Excel, Nov 2019. Recommend With Player #, Best With Player #, Weight (Wgt). I imagine the data is taken from BGG data where users can enter on each game's page what they think.
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/1292 ... t-and-time
Some examples of 6 player games with top ratings and various weights (Light, Medium, Hard, Very Hard):
Decrypto
CodeNames
7 Wonders
Power Grid
Eclipse
Lords of Waterdeep (with expansion)
Flash Point: Fire Rescue
Colt Express
Shadows over Camelot
Bohnanza
Betrayal at House on the Hill
Between Two Cities
Caverna
I have played most of the above and they are great games.
I would look at the Recommend With, as Best With gets a bit more subjective. 2 player Five Tribes is an entirely different game! Castles of Burgundy while great with 2, 4 players you are guaranteed to see every tech tile.
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Played about halfway through Gloomhaven solo (thanks Covid!) running three characters and loved it. I have house ruled a few things, especially retirement, and am glad I spoiled a few things to streamline the outside of combat business. There’s still several characters I want to play - do you think it would be reasonable to mix and match characters across the original and JotL?
I love the card interactions and finding fun ways to play and optimize each class. The whole gameplay system is brilliant. I used no helper apps because... personal preference. Setup is annoying, I got a separate card table pretty much just so I could set up and play at different times and take breaks. JotL reduced set up is a huge draw...
I love the card interactions and finding fun ways to play and optimize each class. The whole gameplay system is brilliant. I used no helper apps because... personal preference. Setup is annoying, I got a separate card table pretty much just so I could set up and play at different times and take breaks. JotL reduced set up is a huge draw...
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We have a board game table with a topper saving lots of time on setup by "suspending" our game and being able to quick resume.
The Glossary has a Component Integration page. The JotL character cards do have the pips to allow enhancing in Gloomhaven.
Items, Monsters and Events from JotL are not compatible with Gloomhaven.
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My issue with Gloomhaven is not just the massive amount of components which could have been streamlined in a 2nd or 3rd printing, but massive number of revisions, updates, FAQ, clarifications, etc.
It is a massive game with a lot of rules and text and so much of our time when playing was trying to figure out what was being said or what was required for us to do. Things were not clear. I remember one gaming session where we spent maybe over 1hr in the session trying to get clarification for some rules that were not exact or tight.
Even with the revisions, it can be a slog to play. It required us over a year to get through the whole game and when we were done my gaming group which muscled through it decided we were done. We are never playing this again and we packed everything up and sold it.
Nobody I game with was willing to try Gloomhaven: Jaws of the Lion.
And, if I am honest, while we had some fun with Gloomhaven, idk that it is that good of a game. I know it is popular and I know there are some who have played it many times and I take NOTHING away from those who enjoyed it, but for me, it was a chore to play and that is not the experience I want during my downtime between work and family duties.
It is a massive game with a lot of rules and text and so much of our time when playing was trying to figure out what was being said or what was required for us to do. Things were not clear. I remember one gaming session where we spent maybe over 1hr in the session trying to get clarification for some rules that were not exact or tight.
Even with the revisions, it can be a slog to play. It required us over a year to get through the whole game and when we were done my gaming group which muscled through it decided we were done. We are never playing this again and we packed everything up and sold it.
Nobody I game with was willing to try Gloomhaven: Jaws of the Lion.
And, if I am honest, while we had some fun with Gloomhaven, idk that it is that good of a game. I know it is popular and I know there are some who have played it many times and I take NOTHING away from those who enjoyed it, but for me, it was a chore to play and that is not the experience I want during my downtime between work and family duties.
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Yes and no. As someone with over 160 hours into Vanilla and finished JotL. TLDR: JotL isn't a watered down Gloomhaven. It's straight up better in so many ways going back to Gloom from it may seem like a step backwards.
Difficulty, Yes: JotL allowed me to teach my 12 year old daughter and she was then in turn able to teach others how to play. It's simple enough that it's easier to learn but complex enough it's still Gloomhaven.
Quality, No: JotL mission design and classes are just straight up better than Gloomhaven. No question. Full stop. Going from JotL into Gloomhaven is arguably a step backwards. JotL is a good intro to Frosthaven (Due 2021). Not Gloomhaven.
Story, Yes but No: JotL gives great context to the story of Gloomhaven which you kinda jump right into. Though again it is vastly superior to Gloomhavens Story.
Battle Goals, Yes: Use these battle Goals when playing Vanilla. Burn the Vanilla pile of battle Goals they are atrocious. Something admitted was a failure in Vanilla by developer.
Balance, Yes: Gloom was a first run at things. Even with revisions it's horribly unbalanced. We loved all 4 classes in JotL we will be playing them when we return to Gloom Community Campaigns in a few months. (Taking a break)
Unlocks: Not going to spoil anything here but I thought the way Gloomhaven handled unlocks was neat and novel but fell short. Even Isaac admitted that the system didn't go quite as planned and he didn't like it. Unlocks in JotL. So good.
Monster AI, Yes. Honestly you will do this wrong and you will do this wrong a lot. In both versions. If you take some of the BGG Monster AI Quizzes you will likely fail. We all did at one point. But the monster cards themselves in JotL are simpler. As are what the enemies themselves can do. By taking away many of the status effects it streamlined the game of a lot of its wackier rules.
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I would say no until Level 5 in the JotL classes in JotL. Then mix it up to your will.
The game actually forces you to use simplified cards at first (that are never used again) and it's tough to get a real feel for the classes . There are other reasons but just trust me. Use the JotL classes in JotL until level 5.
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If you followed the developer on BGG and other places he'd agree with most of your criticism. And even those who love the game will also agree with you.
It may be tough to convince your group to play JotL or Frosthaven but for a FIRST game Gloomhaven was fine but flawed in so many ways especially the further you went. The difficulty curve was completely out of whack. (I cleared an entire 4player mission in 2 turns with Triangles) Many missions felt like busywork with no payoff. Monsters required a PhD to understand. (Movesets are simpler in JotL and Frost)
It felt like an Early Access game and not a released product. However, for what it's worth, most of your criticisms were taken to heart and are acknowledged and fixed. Some in JotL but fully in Frosthaven.
I was playing JotL in parallel with Forgotten Circles with different groups and my wife and I just suddenly stopped liking it caring about FC. Those flaws were even that much more obvious and painful after playing through JotL. And it wasn't something we could house rule. They're inherent design changes. So we stopped until Frosthaven. Maybe some community campaigns to get back into it.
May be too little too late though.
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Yeah, the videos helped. I think they were pretty thorough, though they covered the same material as the learn to play guide. The big difference, for me, is I miss fewer rules with a video than I would if skimming the instructions.
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6 players? Twilight Imperium 4th edition. Ok, I might be biased, it's not for everyone. But I love it for a whole day gaming session, really fun if all the players enjoy it and are trying. Every single game feels epic and unique.
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Can't tell you how relieved I am to find out I'm not the only one this happened to. I got my box, opened it up and started spreading out. Once my entire office floor was covered and I had no more space for the rest of the stuff, I carefully packed it all back up. I've never been so daunted by cardboard in my life.
They sell organizers for the game, but they cost more than the game itself...
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My wife is very much into Gloomhaven; we have it plus Forgotten Circles and the third-party organizers for those games. She has played the Frosthaven demo at PAX, and we have some of the print-to-play characters that Isaac has posted online. We've completed Gloomhaven and Forgotten Circles, with the occasional assistance from my sons (one of whom is able to find all the loopholes in the rules and made a way-overpowered Cragheart). We are maybe halfway through Jaws of the Lion.
I agree that Gloomhaven can be overwhelming, and usually need to take a break from it after playing. We anticipate Frosthaven and will likely start that after Jaws of the Lion is done. I like how they did the maps in Jaws of the Lion, much easier to setup. But the flipping through different sections of the scenario book for different rooms can be a chore (a feature of Forgotten Circles, and it can be a chore to remember where you were).
We also play Gloomhaven game on Steam, and although the characters are the same, the campaign is different.
If you haven't tried it, Gloomhaven Helper (a Java app, and available as a download on Android/iOS/iPadOS) make managing the monsters and actions so much easier. It supports Forgotten Circles and Jaw of the Lion... I presume it will support Frosthaven shortly after it becomes available (I suspect that we will be playing Frosthaven before Gloomhaven helper has support).
I agree that Gloomhaven can be overwhelming, and usually need to take a break from it after playing. We anticipate Frosthaven and will likely start that after Jaws of the Lion is done. I like how they did the maps in Jaws of the Lion, much easier to setup. But the flipping through different sections of the scenario book for different rooms can be a chore (a feature of Forgotten Circles, and it can be a chore to remember where you were).
We also play Gloomhaven game on Steam, and although the characters are the same, the campaign is different.
If you haven't tried it, Gloomhaven Helper (a Java app, and available as a download on Android/iOS/iPadOS) make managing the monsters and actions so much easier. It supports Forgotten Circles and Jaw of the Lion... I presume it will support Frosthaven shortly after it becomes available (I suspect that we will be playing Frosthaven before Gloomhaven helper has support).
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I've enjoyed JotL so far, and was using it as an excuse to determine if I wanted to pick up the original. You've now got me thinking I'd be better off going after Frosthaven down the road.
Thanks for your thoughts (including all the stuff I didn't quote).
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It sounds to me like both this and the original have both the flavor of and the complexity of an RPG, but without as much flexibility/freedom. Why play Gloomhaven instead of D&D? Is it that you're giving up some flexibility in return for nobody having to be the GM?
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It’s more of a puzzle/tactical experience. If anything it’s closer to a cross between Magic (or whatever card-driven game) and Xcom than it is to D&D.
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Descent 2nd Edition on the other hand captures the tactical aspect of D&D. Especially those that use square battle maps.
You got your character, stats, pass/fail checks, dice, equipment.
As mentioned above, Gloomhaven is more a Magic/XCOM like tactical experience. Each character has a ability deck, attack modifier and equipment, which are appended to as you level up, find items, achieve goals and shop.
Characters play with a Hand Limit (you play with all cards in hand until discarded or lost) so you have to decide at the start how you will build your hand. You play two cards a turn. When your hand is empty you have to rest, which requires you discard something from your discard pile to lost.
10 card Hand limit = 5 turns, rest
9 card hand = 4 turns, rest
8 card hadn = 4 turns, rest etc.
== 25 turns total playing 2 ability cards
I have 25 turns to figure out how to beat the scenario. The twist is many ability cards will have super powerful effects but they are lost instead of discarded. This means your overall turn count is lowered. So typically I getting 15-18 turns a scenario as I will likely use a Lost effect early on then 1-3 more throughout the scenario.
There is also the option to discard 1 card from hand (or 2 from discard if hand is empty) to block one source of damage to your character. Once you are not able to play 2 ability cards in a turn, your character is exhausted and removed from the board.
I highly recommend watching Watch It Played series on Jaws of the Lion. It goes through the first 5 scenarios which are set up as a full tutorial in pieces.
The first scenario captures the majority of the gameplay while scenarios 2-5 attach more complex ability cards, traps, difficult terrain, a boss, elemental combos and more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCpQqrC ... chItPlayed
You got your character, stats, pass/fail checks, dice, equipment.
As mentioned above, Gloomhaven is more a Magic/XCOM like tactical experience. Each character has a ability deck, attack modifier and equipment, which are appended to as you level up, find items, achieve goals and shop.
Characters play with a Hand Limit (you play with all cards in hand until discarded or lost) so you have to decide at the start how you will build your hand. You play two cards a turn. When your hand is empty you have to rest, which requires you discard something from your discard pile to lost.
10 card Hand limit = 5 turns, rest
9 card hand = 4 turns, rest
8 card hadn = 4 turns, rest etc.
== 25 turns total playing 2 ability cards
I have 25 turns to figure out how to beat the scenario. The twist is many ability cards will have super powerful effects but they are lost instead of discarded. This means your overall turn count is lowered. So typically I getting 15-18 turns a scenario as I will likely use a Lost effect early on then 1-3 more throughout the scenario.
There is also the option to discard 1 card from hand (or 2 from discard if hand is empty) to block one source of damage to your character. Once you are not able to play 2 ability cards in a turn, your character is exhausted and removed from the board.
I highly recommend watching Watch It Played series on Jaws of the Lion. It goes through the first 5 scenarios which are set up as a full tutorial in pieces.
The first scenario captures the majority of the gameplay while scenarios 2-5 attach more complex ability cards, traps, difficult terrain, a boss, elemental combos and more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCpQqrC ... chItPlayed
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Honestly, the game is near unplayable without the organizers. And I say that, again, as a fan. I played it once or twice without it and I told my wife "Well, time to start saving up for the organizer." I got the Go7Gaming one. It was sturdier than some of the tuck boxes used by Broken Token. But yeah, they're ALL expensive.
It is worth noting that the "Gloomhaven Fantasy Setup" Mod for Tabletop Simulator is 100% Sanctioned by Isaac Childres himself (and the "Frosthaven Demo Mod" was actually commissioned by Isaac.)
You bought it, you supported him. You can use the module guilt-free.
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I have yet to try Descent 2nd Edition, but I always found the Ravenloft Series to capture the D&D Experience closest. Is Descent 2nd Edition even closer than those? But as far as the other comparisons... I'm not so sure I agree at all. The best way I can describe the "Tactical Experience" of all of the games above is based off the level of randomness.
D&D's combat is just pure randomness. The fact that your seasoned warrior who has spent 20+ years handling a sword could bungle an attack and simply fall on his own sword and die has always turned me off D&D's combat system. Hit the kobold with a giant sledgehammer for.... 1 damage? There's often little you can do in a turn for most classes other than "attack" and the dice do the talking. D&D is most definitely its strongest outside of combat.
In MTG, Randomness is the point. Skill comes from adapting to that randomness and making the most out of the shit hands you end up with. Skill can overcome the randomness if you know how to make a lot with very little.
Gloomhaven is much more like counting cards. It's random at first, but it becomes less random as you go. Your modifier deck is a small, known commodity. You just pulled your only -2 and 3 -1's you know you have a bunch of really good hits (or a miss) coming up. Now might be the time for an AoE. You only have 5 cards left in your modifier deck and you know there's a miss, crit, -2, -1, -1? Best save that loss card for a different time. Modifying your characters deck as you level is one of the most important things you can do because it sways that mental math.
XCOM and the like allow you to use tactics to mitigate that level of randomness. So it is heavily about positioning. In theory with skill you can eliminate the randomness completely. Insert 95% joke here.
While you do have cards in Gloomhaven, your abilities are always the same. There is the aspect of knowing what to cast when. But that's where the common joke among Gloomhaven fans "Gloomhaven.... for when chess isn't nerdy enough for you."
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