Facebook is a popular venue for selling all manner of cybercrime services

Already under scrutiny for spreading hate, social network also helps peddle spam and fraud.

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[LiKenun]

When you grow to that size, you just naturally become a tool for everything under the sun. …and in the shadows.

 

[Voyna i Mor]

When you grow to that size, you just naturally become a tool for everything under the sun. …and in the shadows.

Unless you thought about such things while you were growing. Move fast, break things, find it's too late to fix them, get broken up...

 

[colin1497]

I'm amazed at how much criminal activity I see *advertised to me* from FB Marketplace. This is the first news story I've seen on it, though.

 

[Nowicki]

When you grow to that size, you just naturally become a tool for everything under the sun. …and in the shadows.

Unless you thought about such things while you were growing. Move fast, break things, find it's too late to fix them, get broken up...

Except facebook is a bit unprecedented in size and amount of data they collect. For example they need to hire people who are not only fluent in just about every language, but can interpret and know how some may post criminal activity in different dialects, and include cultural references that can be extremely localized.

I get the feeling that technology will allow this kind of thing to be effectively managed, but the question is will it be profitable enough to build that?

 

[Deputy Cartman]

"Gee, we keep getting slammed for facilitating the spread of racism, that whole mess with ethnic cleansing in Myanmar, anti-vax nonsense, and now this?! We need an army of moderators, not a platoon, and we need it years ago."
"But... But... That would minimize profits and shareholder value!!

 

[ALittleTeapot]

When you grow to that size, you just naturally become a tool for everything under the sun. …and in the shadows.

Unless you thought about such things while you were growing. Move fast, break things, find it's too late to fix them, get broken up...

For example they need to hire people who are not only fluent in just about every language, but can interpret and know how some may post criminal activity in different dialects, and include cultural references that can be extremely localized.

If the problem was that their efforts to prevent criminal activities occurring fell short due to language and culture issues, there wouldn't really be a problem at all. The reason there is a problem is that they've never made any effort to do anything at all - the examples shown here are perfectly understandable English, easily found by regular users with simple searches, and even after being reported they weren't addressed in a meaningful way until the reporter nagged them (and while not stated, presumably at some let them know that it was all going to public soon). There's no point worrying about whether criminals might be able to hide their activity behind a language barrier when as things stand there's no reason for them to bother.

 

[Daniel]

On background, the spokesperson said Facebook employees deleted the groups after confirming the Talos findings. The employees also identified the users running the deleted groups and blocked their ability to create new groups on Facebook in the future.

Brutal, that'll stop them!

 

[ryanja]

I'm amazed at how much criminal activity I see *advertised to me* from FB Marketplace. This is the first news story I've seen on it, though.

Seriously. There are ads out there selling those "2,000 games in one" consoles (like Soulja Boy tried to do) that I see in my timeline. I actually tried to report them, and Facebook responded by saying those ads aren't against their guidelines. Apparently making money by selling en masse someone else's IP that you slapped into an emulator isn't against their code of conduct, and Facebook is making money off of that person's ability to peddle their knockoff merchandise.

 

[dlux]

But of course, it's everyone take a swing at Facebook season, so why not.

<sobs uncontrollably>

Won't somebody please think of Mark Zuckerberg's life savings?!?


What a cruel, cruel world!

 

[Nowicki]

When you grow to that size, you just naturally become a tool for everything under the sun. …and in the shadows.

Unless you thought about such things while you were growing. Move fast, break things, find it's too late to fix them, get broken up...

For example they need to hire people who are not only fluent in just about every language, but can interpret and know how some may post criminal activity in different dialects, and include cultural references that can be extremely localized.

If the problem was that their efforts to prevent criminal activities occurring fell short due to language and culture issues, there wouldn't really be a problem at all. The reason there is a problem is that they've never made any effort to do anything at all - the examples shown here are perfectly understandable English, easily found by regular users with simple searches, and even after being reported they weren't addressed in a meaningful way until the reporter nagged them (and while not stated, presumably at some let them know that it was all going to public soon). There's no point worrying about whether criminals might be able to hide their activity behind a language barrier when as things stand there's no reason for them to bother.

I can agree with that. They are not trying to do their job. In short I'm saying I dont think they are fully capable of doing it either.

 

[Death_By_Ebola]

I dunno why the powers that be don`t shut that shitshow down once and for all.

 

[coolblue2000]

A site with more than 2 billion users "helps peddle spam" because people use it peddle spam? Is it also your position that Tor "helps peddle child pornography"? Did Craigslist "help human trafficking?"

A more nuanced view might hold that platforms are not solely responsible for every use to which they're put.

Usually when communication platforms offer confidential channels, that's something Ars defends, even if it's put to criminal uses. I mean, you are in favor of end-to-end encryption, aren't you - even if terrorists might sometimes also use it?

But of course, it's everyone take a swing at Facebook season, so why not.

If you create a platform where you make money out of people posting stuff and you are in control of that content then you need to take responsibility for the stuff that gets posted on your platform... Or turn off your platform...

 

[adrianovaroli]

But of course, it's everyone take a swing at Facebook season, so why not.

<sobs uncontrollably>

Won't somebody please think of Mark Zuckerberg's life savings?!?


What a cruel, cruel world!

Right, because Mark Zuckerberg is the only human working for Facebook that needs to pay his rent and feed their families ... and they all make the same amount of money as he does.

I eagerly expect your comments protecting the poor Purdue Pharma workers.
Let's make this clear: while I'd be perfectly happy if Facebook was burned off the face of the Earth, this is an opportunity for them to clean up their act, after many, many other opportunities, after they should have done the right thing in the first place. They profit from this activity, and that's reprehensible. You're excusing their shitty, shitty acts like they had no choice but to allow everything on their platform. They did.

 

[dlux]

Right, because Mark Zuckerberg is the only human working for Facebook that needs to pay his rent and feed their families ... and they all make the same amount of money as he does.

These comment threads see plenty of non-sequiturs, but that is an un-sequitur.

 

[jackson1]

This is like saying Planet Earth allows criminals to organize.

The only way to prevent such behavior on Facebook is to read the private messages of every user. And not with an "algo"...you would need human eyes that understand the coded language and intent of operators attempting to hide their behaviors.

i.e. its impossible.

Facebook says you can"Connect with friends and the world around you on facebook".

That sounds like people talking about better ways to make and sell meth, how much to cut the drugs being sold, how to get the cops to look the other way, places where it is currently best to cross the border with the humans one is trafficking, where and when the next 'gang bang' takes place...

I figured that what people would do on facebook because that's what they do when they get together to talk about things in real life.

Not everyone collects pony glass for a hobby.

 

[jackson1]

A site with more than 2 billion users "helps peddle spam" because people use it peddle spam? Is it also your position that Tor "helps peddle child pornography"? Did Craigslist "help human trafficking?"

A more nuanced view might hold that platforms are not solely responsible for every use to which they're put.

Usually when communication platforms offer confidential channels, that's something Ars defends, even if it's put to criminal uses. I mean, you are in favor of end-to-end encryption, aren't you - even if terrorists might sometimes also use it?

But of course, it's everyone take a swing at Facebook season, so why not.

If you create a platform where you make money out of people posting stuff and you are in control of that content then you need to take responsibility for the stuff that gets posted on your platform... Or turn off your platform...

And what if you are not in control of the content?
Facebook does not write the entries.

 

[dlux]

Facebook does not write the entries.

Of course not! They're much too busy selling everyone's personal data to sketchy buyers and composing PR-lies about the sincerity of their security efforts after every breach. Busy, busy, busy!

 

[adrianovaroli]

But of course, it's everyone take a swing at Facebook season, so why not.

<sobs uncontrollably>

Won't somebody please think of Mark Zuckerberg's life savings?!?


What a cruel, cruel world!

Really has nothing to do with Mark. The sensationalism of the headline has one believe that Facebook is actively peddling spam, fraud, etc... Facebook does it no more than the interstates peddle in illicit drugs being transported, or telecoms peddling in fraud for robo-calls. Pick any industry and they all have their bad actors built upon the foundations provided to them.

- You do know that people do complain about the telecoms allowing fraudulent robo-calls, don't you?
- You do know that people actually do stuff about the interstate illicit drug commerce, don't you?

 

[theSeb]

It’s ok. Mark will tell everyone how really sorry he is once again and all will be well

 

[Jason Honingford]

Researchers only found 74 groups? Did they want the complete list or....

 

[delonearth]

TOR isn't a moderated platform.
FB (and Craigslist) are.


A nuanced response is that:

-being massive isn't an adequate excuse for those with massive means at their disposal.

-as illegal content is to be expected, the mechanisms for detection, reporting & prompt removal are incumbent on the platform provider (and an intrinsic part of the cost of doing business).

-"on the internet" isn't an adequate excuse for failure to moderate the virtual noticeboards & shops, which if physical entities, would be promptly shut down by local authorities.

- improving the viability of a business model which overlooks its duties isn't the purpose of crime legislation.

 

[luckydob]

But of course, it's everyone take a swing at Facebook season, so why not.

<sobs uncontrollably>

Won't somebody please think of Mark Zuckerberg's life savings?!?


What a cruel, cruel world!

Really has nothing to do with Mark. The sensationalism of the headline has one believe that Facebook is actively peddling spam, fraud, etc... Facebook does it no more than the interstates peddle in illicit drugs being transported, or telecoms peddling in fraud for robo-calls. Pick any industry and they all have their bad actors built upon the foundations provided to them.

- You do know that people do complain about the telecoms allowing fraudulent robo-calls, don't you?
- You do know that people actually do stuff about the interstate illicit drug commerce, don't you?

Yeah, but I don't see people spouting about how the interstates should be shut down or they should turn off all phone calls if they can't eliminate the problem(s). You do what you can to limit it, but bad people do bad things. Saying FB is the cause is just flat out wrong. It's just another tool for people to use.

 

[adrianovaroli]

-"on the internet" isn't an adequate excuse for failure to moderate the virtual noticeboards & shops, which if physical entities, would be promptly shut down by local authorities.

Especially if part of the argument is that authorities are not needed or wanted to police virtual spaces.

 

[plaidflannel]

... I get the feeling that technology will allow this kind of thing to be effectively managed, but the question is will it be profitable enough to build that?

If that technology can replace most of the 30,000 Facebook employees now doing that task, I would guess it will be profitable enough to build it.

 

[adrianovaroli]

But of course, it's everyone take a swing at Facebook season, so why not.

<sobs uncontrollably>

Won't somebody please think of Mark Zuckerberg's life savings?!?


What a cruel, cruel world!

Really has nothing to do with Mark. The sensationalism of the headline has one believe that Facebook is actively peddling spam, fraud, etc... Facebook does it no more than the interstates peddle in illicit drugs being transported, or telecoms peddling in fraud for robo-calls. Pick any industry and they all have their bad actors built upon the foundations provided to them.

- You do know that people do complain about the telecoms allowing fraudulent robo-calls, don't you?
- You do know that people actually do stuff about the interstate illicit drug commerce, don't you?

Yeah, but I don't see people spouting about how the interstates should be shut down or they should turn off all phone calls if they can't eliminate the problem(s). You do what you can to limit it, but bad people do bad things. Saying FB is the cause is just flat out wrong. It's just another tool for people to use.

The correct thing to do when you see someone spouting crazy stuff is not to spout opposite crazy stuff .

 

[coolblue2000]

A site with more than 2 billion users "helps peddle spam" because people use it peddle spam? Is it also your position that Tor "helps peddle child pornography"? Did Craigslist "help human trafficking?"

A more nuanced view might hold that platforms are not solely responsible for every use to which they're put.

Usually when communication platforms offer confidential channels, that's something Ars defends, even if it's put to criminal uses. I mean, you are in favor of end-to-end encryption, aren't you - even if terrorists might sometimes also use it?

But of course, it's everyone take a swing at Facebook season, so why not.

If you create a platform where you make money out of people posting stuff and you are in control of that content then you need to take responsibility for the stuff that gets posted on your platform... Or turn off your platform...

And what if you are not in control of the content?
Facebook does not write the entries.

They store them and show them though... So yes they are in control of the content! Their entire business model is based on owning the comments people put on there!

If the content was not stored by them and on someones private server then no they would not be in control of it, but that is not the case.

 

[Oz7]

A more nuanced view might hold that platforms are not solely responsible for every use to which they're put.

Uhm, at this time they are not responsible at all for any use they are put for- from genocide to election influence operations, to blatant disregard to privacy rights.

There is no redeeming FB at this time.

 

[dave562]

What is the problem here?

I'm probably over simplifying this, but why isn't this problem as easy as setting up a filter on new group posts that contain some of the keywords that Talos is using to find the groups?

They would want to add some logic in there to filter out groups that do not hit on the keywords after a few days. Add those to a database to rescan every week or month.

Granted, we are talking about millions of posts. But this is Facebook. They have the engineering talent and hardware to throw at the problem.

Of course they won't act until someone like the DOJ threatens to shut down the entire operation for facilitating fraud.

 

[JohnCarter17]

Um, isn't it easier to track them down when you know where they are gathering and conducting transactions?

 

[adrianovaroli]

What is the problem here?

I'm probably over simplifying this, but why isn't this problem as easy as setting up a filter on new group posts that contain some of the keywords that Talos is using to find the groups?

They would want to add some logic in there to filter out groups that do not hit on the keywords after a few days. Add those to a database to rescan every week or month.

Granted, we are talking about millions of posts. But this is Facebook. They have the engineering talent and hardware to throw at the problem.

Of course they won't act until someone like the DOJ threatens to shut down the entire operation for facilitating fraud.

The problem is that they don't do it.

 

[jdale]

385,000 people are actively participating in groups advocating and carrying out criminal activities. Why is the response just to shut them down? At least log all the activity and provide it to the authorities first. Many of them no doubt are outside the US and it would be hard to prosecute, but I'm sure many of them live here.

 

[dlux]

It's just another tool for people to use.

Well, hell... Child Pornography has found a new home everybody! Facebook doesn't have to lift a finger so come on down!

 

[Urist]

Only 74? I feel that this is the tip of the iceberg.

 

[mltdwn]

But of course, it's everyone take a swing at Facebook season, so why not.

<sobs uncontrollably>

Won't somebody please think of Mark Zuckerberg's life savings?!?


What a cruel, cruel world!

Really has nothing to do with Mark. The sensationalism of the headline has one believe that Facebook is actively peddling spam, fraud, etc... Facebook does it no more than the interstates peddle in illicit drugs being transported, or telecoms peddling in fraud for robo-calls. Pick any industry and they all have their bad actors built upon the foundations provided to them.

- You do know that people do complain about the telecoms allowing fraudulent robo-calls, don't you?
- You do know that people actually do stuff about the interstate illicit drug commerce, don't you?

Yeah, but I don't see people spouting about how the interstates should be shut down or they should turn off all phone calls if they can't eliminate the problem(s). You do what you can to limit it, but bad people do bad things. Saying FB is the cause is just flat out wrong. It's just another tool for people to use.

Did you miss the part of the article that they reported them and until they directly contacted Facebook employees nothing was done? And even now AFTER going through all of those hoops there are STILL entire groups still up and in many cases they didn't even shut down the groups they just removed a single post? No one is saying FB is the cause, they are saying they aren't doing anything/enough about it, and at times out right ignoring reports. Which makes sense since they want engagement and shutting down groups interferes with that.

 

[shelbystripes]

When you grow to that size, you just naturally become a tool for everything under the sun. …and in the shadows.

Unless you thought about such things while you were growing. Move fast, break things, find it's too late to fix them, get broken up...

Except facebook is a bit unprecedented in size and amount of data they collect. For example they need to hire people who are not only fluent in just about every language, but can interpret and know how some may post criminal activity in different dialects, and include cultural references that can be extremely localized.

I get the feeling that technology will allow this kind of thing to be effectively managed, but the question is will it be profitable enough to build that?

If doing something that breaks society and facilitates crime can’t be made profitable without doing those things, the default shouldn’t be “oh well”, it should be shutting that thing down.

There is no inherent right to run a profitable business. Facebook doesn’t have an inherent right to exist. If they’re unable to manage the risks they create themselves, they should be broken up into manageably small pieces.