Driverless car from GM’s Cruise and motorcycle collide in San Francisco

The motorcyclist walked away from the crash but reported shoulder pain.

Read the whole story

 

[azazel1024]

Something I wonder is if vehicle control algorithms are or will include defensive driving. Scenario I can think of (and have experienced) was I was stopped to make a left hand turn, but there was oncoming traffic. I noticed in my rearview mirror a car behind me approaching too fast to stop in time (no way to go around me) and in the maybe 2 seconds before impact I floored the gas as the driver noticed me an stood on the brakes. The car still struck mine, but I was going at least 5 or 6mph instead of being at a complete stop, which meant the car behind me only hit me going about 10mph faster then I was traveling. Still destroyed the rear bumper, but the damage might have been somewhat worse (like needing to replace the bumper supports) had I not done anything.

Ideally with all vehicles automated that situation wouldn't ever occur.

It'll be a LOT of years before all cars are fully automated and always under autonomous control.

 

[icrf]

Something I wonder is if vehicle control algorithms are or will include defensive driving.

I would say this situation applies. It was changing lanes because there was a gap, but then the gap was closing, so it abandoned the lane change. I've heard of Audi's L3 (L4?) cars doing that in Germany on the Autobahn. It was moving into the left lane to pass, but as it got over, it detected oncoming traffic behind it at high speed and abandoned the lane change and moved back.

 

[PsionEdge]

No mention of whether the motorcyclist was wearing a helmet. A key indicator in the safety mindset of the motorcyclist.

EDIT:
I know helmets are required by law to operate or ride on a motorcycle in California. I am just curious of the status of the driver in this case?

Lane-splitting in CA is only legal in stopped traffic. But motorcycles do it all the time. Still, I can't recall the last time I've seen one w/o a helmet in my ten years in the LA area.

Edit: thanks to the poster below for the correction. Lane-splitting is allowed among moving vehicles "when done safely".

 

[PineappleUnderTheSea]

Would need more info as to how far over the Cruise was when it made it's lane change. If it had it's left tires over the line, most of us would assume it will continue the lane change, so I can see how the motorcycle assumed that the car was "out of mind".

But on a motorcycle, you should never assume anything about nothing !

 

[errzone]

No mention of whether the motorcyclist was wearing a helmet. A key indicator in the safety mindset of the motorcyclist.

EDIT:
I know helmets are required by law to operate or ride on a motorcycle in California. I am just curious of the status of the driver in this case?

Lane-splitting in CA is only legal in stopped traffic. But motorcycles do it all the time. Still, I can't recall the last time I've seen one w/o a helmet in my ten years in the LA area.

That is not quite true. From the CA dmv website:
"California law does not allow or prohibit motorcycles from passing other vehicles proceeding in the same direction within the same lane, a practice often called "lane splitting," "lane sharing" or "filtering."

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detai ... _splitting

 

[Tempus --)-------]

Ah, motorcycles. The reason why I disbelieve in the notion of a fully autonomous vehicle future.

Are you saying that this would have been different in any way with a human at the wheel?

I frankly think autonomous cars are MORE likely to actually 'see' motorcycles than human drivers. Which is (I believe) the most common cause of a car-vs-motorcycle accident where the car driver is found to be at fault)

And this would be far from the first time that a motorcyclist does risky or illegal stuff like lane splitting and gets into an accident as a result (Not saying all motorcyclists do this kind of stupid stuff, just that those who do are far more likely to be involved in accidents)

 

[irTESEV]

The motorcyclist was determined to be at fault for the collision.

"In this case, the motorcyclist merged into our lane before it was safe to do so."

Only thing I came to read the article for. Probably something that would happen to a human driver and maybe something that a driverless car will be able to avoid going forward.

 

[Aidolon]

Lane-splitting in CA is only legal in stopped traffic. But motorcycles do it all the time.

This information is incorrect; it's not limited to stopped traffic. Per AB 51:

Vehicle Motorcycles: Lane Splitting (AB 51, Quirk) Current law does not change; lane splitting by a motorcyclist remains legal if done safely. This bill defines lane splitting as driving a motorcycle, which has two wheels in contact with the ground, between rows of stopped or moving vehicles in the same lane. The bill permits the CHP to develop lane splitting educational safety guidelines in consultation with other state traffic safety agencies and at least one organization focused on motorcycle safety.

Bill Text

CHP Page on Traffic Law Changes for 2017

 

[xgerrit]

There are lots of technical data and sensor related problems to be worked out, but when you consider how many automated transportation systems already exist at airports and theme parks, more and more the challenge of self-driving cars looks like training the cars to understand the psychology of human drivers.

 

[Tempus --)-------]

Would need more info as to how far over the Cruise was when it made it's lane change. If it had it's left tires over the line, most of us would assume it will continue the lane change, so I can see how the motorcycle assumed that the car was "out of mind".

But on a motorcycle, you should never assume anything about nothing !

I think you are probably pretty safe to assume that none of the cars sharing the road with you even knows you are there. further I think you SHOULD assume that much.

Disclosure: have lost too many friends and acquaintances who were riding motorcycles and hit by a car that 'didn't notice them', so am a bit biased.

 

[Tempus --)-------]

Lane-splitting in CA is only legal in stopped traffic. But motorcycles do it all the time.

This information is incorrect; it's not limited to stopped traffic. Per AB 51:

Vehicle Motorcycles: Lane Splitting (AB 51, Quirk) Current law does not change; lane splitting by a motorcyclist remains legal if done safely. This bill defines lane splitting as driving a motorcycle, which has two wheels in contact with the ground, between rows of stopped or moving vehicles in the same lane. The bill permits the CHP to develop lane splitting educational safety guidelines in consultation with other state traffic safety agencies and at least one organization focused on motorcycle safety.

Bill Text

CHP Page on Traffic Law Changes for 2017

Love the 'if done safely' wording there.. pretty much that puts the onus on the motorcycle, as if you are involved in an accident while lane splitting, clearly you were not doing it safely.

 

[TimothyAWiseman]

No mention of whether the motorcyclist was wearing a helmet. A key indicator in the safety mindset of the motorcyclist.

EDIT:
I know helmets are required by law to operate or ride on a motorcycle in California. I am just curious of the status of the driver in this case?

Lane-splitting in CA is only legal in stopped traffic. But motorcycles do it all the time. Still, I can't recall the last time I've seen one w/o a helmet in my ten years in the LA area.

That is not quite true. From the CA dmv website:
"California law does not allow or prohibit motorcycles from passing other vehicles proceeding in the same direction within the same lane, a practice often called "lane splitting," "lane sharing" or "filtering."

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detai ... _splitting

I suppose the legislature will have to take a stand and make it illegal. They can't allow it and have self driving cars.

What is the basis for this reasoning? It seems in this case the motorcyclist made an error, the self-driving car behaved as well as it could have under the circumstances and likely better than most human drivers.

This seems to be human-error on the part of that particular rider, rather than a fundamental flaw with either the law or the vehicle.

 

[loquacio]

Vehicle Motorcycles: Lane Splitting (AB 51, Quirk) Current law does not change; lane splitting by a motorcyclist remains legal if done safely. This bill defines lane splitting as driving a motorcycle, which has two wheels in contact with the ground, between rows of stopped or moving vehicles in the same lane. The bill permits the CHP to develop lane splitting educational safety guidelines in consultation with other state traffic safety agencies and at least one organization focused on motorcycle safety.

Well what even is the point of a motorcycle if I can't do a wheelie between two lines of cars?

 

[joequincy]

Okay so the cruise swerved at 12mph and a motorcycle tried to be sneaky at the same time.

First of all at 12mph how the hell did the automatic system not know there was enough space to change lanes? That is a bad decision on the car's part. you need X space, and the slower you are going the smaller X is but it isn't a linear shrink. you need more space at lower speeds than you might think because cars behind tend to be more aggressive.

The motorcycle did something stupid. so that is on the motorcycle.

According to the information we have, the Cruise didn't "swerve." It began to merge, and then conditions changed making completion of the merge unsafe, so it reverted back to its original lane.

 

[dramamoose]

The company reported 14 collisions to California authorities between September and November of this year—a reflection of the company's active testing on San Francisco streets.

How many vehicles is Cruise testing? 14 collisions in 3 months sounds very high. If they're testing 140 vehicles, that's still an average of one per vehicle every 30 months. That's high. (I haven't been in one -- I was rear-ended, lightly -- in over 200 months.)

Are you driving eight hours a day in downtown SF?

 

[alastairmayer]

No mention of whether the motorcyclist was wearing a helmet. A key indicator in the safety mindset of the motorcyclist.

EDIT:
I know helmets are required by law to operate or ride on a motorcycle in California. I am just curious of the status of the driver in this case?

Lane-splitting in CA is only legal in stopped traffic. But motorcycles do it all the time. Still, I can't recall the last time I've seen one w/o a helmet in my ten years in the LA area.

That is not quite true. From the CA dmv website:
"California law does not allow or prohibit motorcycles from passing other vehicles proceeding in the same direction within the same lane, a practice often called "lane splitting," "lane sharing" or "filtering."

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detai ... _splitting

"Filtering" is an interesting choice of words. I wonder if that's meant in a Darwinistic sense.

 

[alastairmayer]

Motorcyclists who lane-split should lose their licenses to keep them from losing their lives. Same problem with bicyclists, who, of course, don't need licenses anyway.

Yes, I know it's legal in California; that doesn't make it safe.

Lose their licences? Hell no. We need more organ donors.

 

[Thereitis]

Okay so the cruise swerved at 12mph and a motorcycle tried to be sneaky at the same time.

First of all at 12mph how the hell did the automatic system not know there was enough space to change lanes? That is a bad decision on the car's part. you need X space, and the slower you are going the smaller X is but it isn't a linear shrink. you need more space at lower speeds than you might think because cars behind tend to be more aggressive.

The motorcycle did something stupid. so that is on the motorcycle.

It's clearly defined in the article. The car started changing lanes, then the car ahead started slowing down. The parameters changed significantly after the car determined that it was safe to change lanes, so it returned to its lane. No bad decision there.

 

[pr0t0]

I'm not sure a human would have done better in the situation.

I wonder what the resolution to this circumstance would be. I'll go ahead and assume that autonomous vehicles are programmed to align themselves in the center of the lane they have determined to occupy. Should they now be programmed to edge toward one side or the other of the lane if another vehicle starts to slide into the spot they began to vacate but re-entered? Or should they determine a motorcyclist is less likely to survive a collision than an automobile passenger and proceed with a tight lane change?

Tough one.

 

[Tim Lee]

Okay so the cruise swerved at 12mph and a motorcycle tried to be sneaky at the same time.

First of all at 12mph how the hell did the automatic system not know there was enough space to change lanes? That is a bad decision on the car's part. you need X space, and the slower you are going the smaller X is but it isn't a linear shrink. you need more space at lower speeds than you might think because cars behind tend to be more aggressive.

The motorcycle did something stupid. so that is on the motorcycle.

It's clearly defined in the article. The car started changing lanes, then the car ahead started slowing down. The parameters changed significantly after the car determined that it was safe to change lanes, so it returned to its lane. No bad decision there.

If it couldn't change lanes because the car ahead slowed down, then it was never safe to change lanes.

Have you ever driven a car in a big city?

 

[Statistical]

The company reported 14 collisions to California authorities between September and November of this year—a reflection of the company's active testing on San Francisco streets.

How many vehicles is Cruise testing? 14 collisions in 3 months sounds very high. If they're testing 140 vehicles, that's still an average of one per vehicle every 30 months. That's high. (I haven't been in one -- I was rear-ended, lightly -- in over 200 months.)

Are you driving eight hours a day in downtown SF?

Driving eight hours a day in downtown SF is more likely driving two hours a day and sitting in stopped traffic the other six.

But lets take that out of the equation. Cruise would have to be testing over 100 vehicles (every day) in SF for their 14 crashes in 3 months to be equivalent.

Are they?

Cruise has a fleet of 180 vehicles. I don't know if they all run everyday or how many are in SF. It certainly possible they have an accident rate comparable to yourself.

 

[Z06 Vette]

I would be curios what caused the sudden change in the traffic in the left hand lane. Is this a limitation of the sensors? Do the sensors only see the cars in immediate positions (the closest cars front and back in each lane), but could not see a stopped car farther ahead blocking the left hand lane?

At 12 mph, I really have to wonder how close the bike was that it could not react to the cruise changing course. I say this as the owner of several motorcycles.

 

[alastairmayer]

The company reported 14 collisions to California authorities between September and November of this year—a reflection of the company's active testing on San Francisco streets.

How many vehicles is Cruise testing? 14 collisions in 3 months sounds very high. If they're testing 140 vehicles, that's still an average of one per vehicle every 30 months. That's high. (I haven't been in one -- I was rear-ended, lightly -- in over 200 months.)

Are you driving eight hours a day in downtown SF?

Driving eight hours a day in downtown SF is more likely driving two hours a day and sitting in stopped traffic the other six.

But lets take that out of the equation. Cruise would have to be testing over 100 vehicles (every day) in SF for their 14 crashes in 3 months to be equivalent.

Are they?

Cruise has a fleet of 180 vehicles. I don't know if they all run everyday or how many are in SF. It certainly possible they have an accident rate comparable to yourself.

Thank you for answering the question.

That's not so bad, then. Might even be better.

 

[sphigel]

Okay so the cruise swerved at 12mph and a motorcycle tried to be sneaky at the same time.

First of all at 12mph how the hell did the automatic system not know there was enough space to change lanes? That is a bad decision on the car's part. you need X space, and the slower you are going the smaller X is but it isn't a linear shrink. you need more space at lower speeds than you might think because cars behind tend to be more aggressive.

The motorcycle did something stupid. so that is on the motorcycle.

It's clearly defined in the article. The car started changing lanes, then the car ahead started slowing down. The parameters changed significantly after the car determined that it was safe to change lanes, so it returned to its lane. No bad decision there.

If it couldn't change lanes because the car ahead slowed down, then it was never safe to change lanes.

Have you ever driven a car in a big city?

Not the person you replied to but I have plenty and I think it's safe to say that most drivers would complete the lane change regardless of the narrowing gap. I almost never see a car initiate a lane change and then revert back to its original lane. If that is something self-driving cars are doing with much more regularity then it could be likely to create more accidents. Whether right or not, people often make driving decisions based off what they think people will do. The motorcyclist probably thought the car would complete the lane change even given the narrowing gap in the destination lane.

 

[Fritzr]

No mention of whether the motorcyclist was wearing a helmet. A key indicator in the safety mindset of the motorcyclist.

EDIT:
I know helmets are required by law to operate or ride on a motorcycle in California. I am just curious of the status of the driver in this case?

Lane-splitting in CA is only legal in stopped traffic. But motorcycles do it all the time. Still, I can't recall the last time I've seen one w/o a helmet in my ten years in the LA area.

That is not quite true. From the CA dmv website:
"California law does not allow or prohibit motorcycles from passing other vehicles proceeding in the same direction within the same lane, a practice often called "lane splitting," "lane sharing" or "filtering."

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detai ... _splitting

"Filtering" is an interesting choice of words. I wonder if that's meant in a Darwinistic sense.

It is the less common usage. Filtering also means working your way through a series of small spaces. The common usage focuses on the things that cannot filter-through the obstacle. They are filtered-out.

In the Darwinian sense, the things that filter through are the winners

 

[dramamoose]

The company reported 14 collisions to California authorities between September and November of this year—a reflection of the company's active testing on San Francisco streets.

How many vehicles is Cruise testing? 14 collisions in 3 months sounds very high. If they're testing 140 vehicles, that's still an average of one per vehicle every 30 months. That's high. (I haven't been in one -- I was rear-ended, lightly -- in over 200 months.)

Are you driving eight hours a day in downtown SF?

Driving eight hours a day in downtown SF is more likely driving two hours a day and sitting in stopped traffic the other six.

But lets take that out of the equation. Cruise would have to be testing over 100 vehicles (every day) in SF for their 14 crashes in 3 months to be equivalent.

Are they?

Equivalency is probably difficult to determine, unless we can find 'average injury-free car accidents per driving hour' stats for downtown SF, there's no way to determine a real baseline.

 

[DarthSlack]

Okay so the cruise swerved at 12mph and a motorcycle tried to be sneaky at the same time.

First of all at 12mph how the hell did the automatic system not know there was enough space to change lanes? That is a bad decision on the car's part. you need X space, and the slower you are going the smaller X is but it isn't a linear shrink. you need more space at lower speeds than you might think because cars behind tend to be more aggressive.

The motorcycle did something stupid. so that is on the motorcycle.

It's clearly defined in the article. The car started changing lanes, then the car ahead started slowing down. The parameters changed significantly after the car determined that it was safe to change lanes, so it returned to its lane. No bad decision there.

If it couldn't change lanes because the car ahead slowed down, then it was never safe to change lanes.

Have you ever driven a car in a big city?

Not the person you replied to but I have plenty and I think it's safe to say that most drivers would complete the lane change regardless of the narrowing gap. I almost never see a car initiate a lane change and then revert back to its original lane. If that is something self-driving cars are doing with much more regularity then it could be likely to create more accidents. Whether right or not, people often make driving decisions based off what they think people will do. The motorcyclist probably thought the car would complete the lane change even given the narrowing gap in the destination lane.

Where do you drive? In DC I have to abandon lane changes all the time because someone else made a dive for the space. The car made the right decision, the lane change wasn't safe so it went back. I'm sorry, but even if legal, lane splitting is asking for trouble.

 

[chriskrum]

A lane-splitting motorcycle should be at fault in any accident. It's legal in CA but it needs to be completely on them to do it safely. Expecting cars to be aware of an over taking motorcycle coming from either side at a high rate of speed (often weaving in and out between other cars) is just asinine.

If motorcyclists bitch that this is "unfair" then we need to outlaw it completely and cite any bike that does it.