The US already lags far behind China and Europe, but we're going too fast, dealers say.
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Car dealers say they can’t sell EVs, tell Biden to slow their rollout
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Same here! In fact, we bought a CR-V in 2021 (though got a better equipped leftover 2020 over a 2021). We started shopping October 2020 and didn't sign on the dotted line until January 2021.
That said, "I have yet to see an EV that makes me want to buy one on the spot - I'm just not feeling any enthusiasm" -- this gives off a vibe that it is EVs that have yet to give you a strong urge to just do it, while it sounds like it is more just cars in general.
Though I'd also say that for any large purchase, I think avoiding impulse buys is probably for the best.
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To charge a home battery during the day and use it to charge the car you’d need a very large home battery. The RoI on that would be pretty crap.
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What do you mean by FMV? Do you mean that if you are paying $0.12/kWh for electricity you buy, that they should pay you $0.12/kWh?
While that sounds nice, why would they pay YOU that much for your electricity, when they are likely spending half of that from their regular sources? If they pay a solar farm $0.06/kWh and the other $0.06/kWh you pay covers their expenses and profit, then $0.06/kWh to you to buy your excess would seem to be fair.
And I imagine there is some additional costs involved in setting up and maintaining the buyback system, so I guess I think it'd be fair for them to charge a little something extra for that (though $30-40 extra [per month?] would seem to be way over-the-top for that)
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If you drive like 40 miles per day and average around 250 wh/mile, that is 10kWh. Maybe you'd need more like 12 kWh figuring in losses.
This would work out nicely with a Powerwall unit, as they are 13.5 kWh each. From the Cleantechnica article from this past summer [1], you'd be looking at about $11,500 installed, before accounting for any state and federal tax credits that you might qualify for. Let's just go with $10k...?
Assuming that you are able to get most of your ~10 kWh per day out of it (enough panels to get that year round and your daily driving is enough to not leave it unused too often) and figuring about $0.15/kWh, I get 18 years. Ouch. Maybe more like 16-17 years, since I guess you'd get to use anything leftover for regular house stuff...? Still a long time to break even.
Hell, with that much use, did you even make it to 16-18 years without having to replace (or accept notable losses to capacity)?
But, maybe the combination of battery costs coming down and a future where used cells are more plentiful will shave off a lot from those costs and get us to a point where the break-even is soon enough to actually make financial sense?
[1] https://cleantechnica.com/2023/08/15/how-much-does-it-cost-to-have-a-tesla-powerwall-installed/
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And even people who do, but who are used to the pre-pandemic idea of what the “discount” will be on a car’s sticker price.
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Agreed. I have been driving my two-series BMW since 2014 after months of looking at options back then, and think I can get another 4-5 years from it. My current inclination to a replacement is a Subaru hybrid, but we will see where the market takes us. I'd go for a a full EV, but the HOA would make make pay for the plug.
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Blame the dealer…..never mind the stats showing something around half of adults not wanting an EV to begin with.
I’m no fan of the circus car dealers operate in. A colonoscopy is (slightly) more desirable.
When your product is actively ignored, you sell what the customer wants. No amount of ‘selling’ will force a buyer to pay for something they don’t want.
The market didn’t and doesn’t clamor for EVs.
I’m no fan of the circus car dealers operate in. A colonoscopy is (slightly) more desirable.
When your product is actively ignored, you sell what the customer wants. No amount of ‘selling’ will force a buyer to pay for something they don’t want.
The market didn’t and doesn’t clamor for EVs.
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It makes way more sense to charge the car during the day at work and use the car battery as a battery. Rather than use a battery to charge the car battery, which has a bit too much “yo dawg” energy to it.
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I didn't claim otherwise-- I was responding to your comment of:
"To charge a home battery during the day and use it to charge the car you’d need a very large home battery. The RoI on that would be pretty crap."
I was just putting some numbers illustrating "the ROI would be crap".
I guess one thing that might flip this a bit was mentioned in the video linked in this thread, where the presenter was talking about the program with their electric company where they were able to pull small amounts of electricity from customer powerwalls rather than spinning up peaker plants. They mentioned that they got over $2000 for ~10 kWh over the course of a summer, which takes a pretty big bite out of the high ROI.
"It makes way more sense to charge the car during the day at work" --- sure, assuming that you have access to charging at work and still perhaps not depending on how it is priced.
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drskeletaldrawing
Smack-Fu Master, in training
I would not buy from them either - dealerships are useless value-destroying, cash-sucking middlemen that in most states crooked politicians have enshrined into law as the only way customers can buy the majority of cars. After my most recent set of comparative experiences I will literally never purchase from a dealer again, whether in person or online. If I have to, I'll buy Tesla's even as Musk says the most unbelievably stupid things on X (although other EV upstarts also sell direct to customers, thankfully).
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I know I'm very late to this party, but a lot of folks kept referring to "trickle charging" an EV. You could say it's just semantics (and I think you in particular were subtly pointing this out with the scare quotes), but using a 120V Level 1 EVSE to charge is not trickle charging. That's what you do with a 12V lead acid battery to charge it up or keep it topped off when not connected to a running vehicle. It's not something you can do with lithium-ion batteries.
I recently checked a trip I took in 2018 in A Better Route Planner to see how the route looks today. Initially it wasn't giving me any stops, since I can make the whole trip on one charge when starting from 100%, so I made it a round trip with the destination treated as a waypoint. Happily, there is now a DCFC on that leg of I-29 that it had me stopping at. On a 15%->80% charge I was seeing the same: 45 minutes. Knowing that the Bolt is kind of at the bottom of the DCFC barrel and even it doesn't take an hour to charge I think the OP had no clue what he was talking about with the whole "stopping for hours".
Incidentally, I rewatched the Aging Wheels video he linked. In that video - titled "EV Road Trips Suck Now (Except in a Tesla)" - what Robert is highlighting is something we all kind of already know: maintenance has been kind of crap for most non-Supercharger DCFC setups. Stations rated at 120kW were delivering as low as 30kW or (for some identified as "broken") even 2kW. As far as I can tell, it's only in this last case that he mentions taking hours. He was deliberately making multiple short stops to check more stations than he'd normally hit on the trip. Even after rewatching it, I didn't get the impression that Robert was saying it's the norm to have to wait hours to recharge a non-Tesla - just that the experience has gone down in the last couple of years, despite having more options available.
Well this is just a whole bunch of stupid. A lot of it has been debunked, so I'll just add my anecdote to drive the point home. Since October of 2017 my Bolt EV has been my only car and daily driver. I have a ~35 mile round trip commute and no place to charge at work. With one exception, I've only ever charged it at home - on Level 1 charging at 12A. That means it takes on average about 9 hours to recharge. Occaisionally I accidentally forget to plug it in when I get home and have to drive the next day without a full charge. All that means is that when I charge it the next night it probably won't be back to the 90% hilltop reserve level by the time I need to leave the day after. It may take a whole two overnight charging sessions to get back there!
To be honest, I deliberately stopped automatically plugging it in when I get home on Friday nights because I do so little weekend driving I can just plug in a few hours earlier on Sunday to cover it.
Can you expand on this by any chance? All I've been able to find are sites with names like "GM Parts Direct" or "OEM Parts Online" that turn out to be connected with various dealers' service centers and are a very mixed bag on Reseller Ratings - when you can find the specific site listed at all. Oh, there's also "parts.chevrolet.com", which is the official Chevy parts site and lets you look up the parts you need... and then directs you to a local dealer to purchase it.
So... you want a single-purpose, non-touch-sensitive screen taking up space on your dashboard? Because... you're getting a screen in the dashboard. That's kind of required for the mandated backup camera.
I suppose it doesn't have to do anything else, but that seems like a pretty big waste of space. You know what? It wouldn't cost much to integrate the infotainment system into that required head unit! You could even maybe put some useful but time insensitive diagnostic info on there! Maybe even display the climate control info!
Most of those 90s cars also had a lot of integrated electronics. The difference was that you needed an OBD code reader to know anything about them. That still largely the case, since most of that is not info the end user needs to worry about. The point is: if you have to have an built-in screen anyway, why wouldn't you want it to be... you know... useful?
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The market appears to be clamoring for hybrids. Many of us do not have thee ability to charge an EV.
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I know I don't, but a hybrid isn't the solution in any case. We need to stop using fossil fuels altogether. The solution is better support for a charging solution in housing solutions like what you and I have where electrical outlets aren't available where we park.
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I wholly agree. As it sits today, I would need to hire an architect, get HOA approval for the plan, then hire a contractor to install it. On my dime. In four or five years, I will seek a place closer to my son's high school, and access to charging will be on the list.
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In my case where I park is up to chance, so even if I DID get an outlet in one spot, there's no telling if I'd be able to park in that space consistently. The only chance would be for the owners of the complex to install plugs in every spot, and then set up some means of charging specific tenants for their electric usage, so that likely means some sort of card swipers would need to be installed.
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CrashingTooFast
Wise, Aged Ars Veteran
Seems like we need more fact checkers / editors....
Last month's "news" was that EVs are stacking up on dealer lots, and unsellable.
Today https://www.nada.org/nada/research-and-data/market-beat
"Year-to-date sales of battery electric vehicles (BEVs) topped 1 million units during November, the first time BEV sales have exceeded that threshold in a single sales year. Through 11 months of the year, BEV sales totaled 1,007,984, an increase of 50.7% year over year."
Biden, you old-man fool, nobody wants your damn EVs.
Last month's "news" was that EVs are stacking up on dealer lots, and unsellable.
Today https://www.nada.org/nada/research-and-data/market-beat
"Year-to-date sales of battery electric vehicles (BEVs) topped 1 million units during November, the first time BEV sales have exceeded that threshold in a single sales year. Through 11 months of the year, BEV sales totaled 1,007,984, an increase of 50.7% year over year."
Biden, you old-man fool, nobody wants your damn EVs.
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Or you could just not do that. I don't know why EVs necessarily need to satisfy not only only trips more sensibly done by other modes of transportation, but also forgive our lack of preparation and forethought.
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Just for our knowledge, where are you parking now? Streetside? Townhouse complex outdoor communal parking?
In theory, they could repurpose some of the parking spots to dedicated EV-charging and put in for pay chargers there. Obviously there are a variety of logistical issues that need to be solve.
Here are some of my stream of conscious brainstorm thoughts and definitely don't answer all of the potential problems/challenges
- use simultaneous charging cables to help will utilization as most people technically only need to charge a few hours.
- daytime (10AM-4PM) idle fee of say $2/hour (basically like a parking meter once charge session is over).
- grant a overnight amnesty until say 10AM for people charging overnight.
- to measure occupancy or session duration use one of those charging stalls where the connector is only unlocked on payment, and the session is only closed when the connector is return to charging stall. alternatively you could use a camera to measure occupancy (like how traffic light cameras sense left turn lanes) privacy concern might be an issue, but I feel like it would effectively be a complex security camera
- it would cut into parking spots available so that is a consideration.
- you probably want to plan for potential future expansion over the decades (I don't know if American property managers think that far ahead)
- you could have an indicator light on the stalls signally valid charging session (for parking security). Again it would be like the little red flag on a parking meter.
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Or you could do that and fill up on snacks for the drive while the car charges as you're driving away from home. Given the lack of preparation, I think it's safe to assume there's no snacks either.
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Because every once in awhile "the way we want things to happen" runs smack into "a bad day". The more gracefully it's handled the better.
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At the risk of self doxing, I live in an apartment complex that won't be growing at any point in the future, based on how other complexes function. It's already walled in on all sides so there's nowhere for it to grow, and the buildings can't grow "up" either. So, at the very least they won't have to plan for that. Parking is "first come first serve" unless I was willing to pay an extra hundred per month to get an assigned mini-garage. If I did THAT, I'd have an outlet I could use though, with apartment style three-phase power, but power all the same. But, I'm not really willing to take on that particular cost burden.
The only real solution in this case is providing power to every spot, because as it is parking is so tenuous that there are often times I have to park in front of another building because all the ones in front of mine are taken up. I understand, after a little research, that "smart powering" could identify the car connected and charge the appropriate tenant, so it's feasible, but would be VERY expensive for the complex to implement short of a government program to cover such costs (which I do hope becomes a reality as well by the way).
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That's true of all things in life and it goes on a "pros vs cons" spectrum.
Deciding to sleep in just enough arrive jus on time forwork versus being late to work. Deciding to speed on the highway a bit and swerve though passing lanes. Fire/flood/earthquake insurance. Car insurance premium for low collision deductibles. Getting vaccinations to avoid illness/serious illness/death. Prepping for the end of human civilization.
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For growth, I meant growth of the ratio of BEVs the ICEV. Like right now with BEV adoption at 5% and apartment ratio probably lower than that... we are talking like 3 BEVs per 100 vehicle... so two dual cable charging stalls would be enough right now, but not in 5/10/15 years... and so an apartment complex might want to plan for that (although as I said, I'm not sure property managers really look that far into the future)
I'm not sure would be "VERY expensive" to to implement a smart powering system that attributes the electricity usage to the proper account. Ubitricity developed has a "simplystocket" that is a smart outlet designed to be install in light posts, and the installation cost was around $1,600 per outlet they way they handle payment is because each EV driver need to own their own "smart charging cable" which records the amount of electricity they are using. Now that cost doesn't include the wiring of the parking spots (so it isn't the only cost) and there are probably connectivity hurdles that might need to be address in an underground parking structure, but I don't see and serious issues with this couldn't be adapted to work in a parking garage instead of streetlight.
Ontop of that I definitely think there would likely a government program to help cover the cost. The US Department of Energy explicitly keeping an eye on about disadvantaged communities (DAC) and multifamily housing in it's ongoing monitoring of current EV charging infrastructure trends. I found a couple of municipal utilities already offering multifamily building EV incentives at around $8,000 per charger installed.
Also... I'm not sure why you think even an a parking lot without reserve parking spaces... it has to be that power is provided at every spot. Again, why can't the property reserve some spots for EV charging and have it patrolled/billed like a parking meter or resident only 9PM-9AM parking? I understand that it would take up some of the existing parking... but it's not clear that this automatically is a showstopper.
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Under... ground? What's that? We don't have that here, like in the whole state. It's a standard above-ground flat slab of concrete.
And, the reason we can't have reserved "charge only" spots is because every single spot is already in use and people can and will complain, en masse, at being excluded from those spots. I can even understand, since they'd need to put a spot in front of each building and someone's going to look at that spot and get frustrated they can't park there. Then they'll just lie and say their car is an EV if challenged on it. That's just the way people are.
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Why do you need to get an architect for installing solar + battery? Also, is there a specific HOA rule about solar installations? I'm really confused about the first part (solar companies basically look at a Google map picture of your roof and give you an estimate about how many solar panels they can install), and the few HOAs that have rules against solar get some massive public pushback against them.
And if you're not installing solar, you're just installing a dryer plug in your house. In the worst case scenario, you have an old 100 Amp panel that is maxed out, and you need an electrician to install a 200 Amp one. That may require approval from the electric company, but that's an outlier.
Really curious about what your HOA and house look like that getting a charger installed has such hurdles.
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I ask that before, but you didn't directly reply. So above ground is probably easier to wire up with a charger (I think, I'm not way a road construction expert or electrician, but I've seen them go up inside condo parking garages and and in above ground parking spots and negotiated the contract to have someone add two L2 chargers to my company office parking lot).
I did previously mention limited existing parking space as a limiting factor. I'm sure people will complain en masse because they complain about basically everything both valid (rent raises, maintenance issues, noise, pest/mold) and less valid (a friend of my had a neighbor sued the condo association because he was told he couldn't park his 3 vehicles and a trailer in the guest parking spots (he was a hoarder and filled his garage with stuff).
If your apartment complex already offers reserved parking spots, it is "possible" for them to push through dedicating a few spots (say 2-4 out of 100) to get the tax incentives/benefits. Obviously it would be a judgement call depending on the situation... but technically if there are 5 residents who potentially want to charge their BEV. "at home"... the net effect is the same (those residents would have been taking up parking spots anyway).
While it possible that it might be cheaper to put them in front (closer to the existing power). Technically, it wouldn't need to be in the front as I agree that would be unnecessarily preferential treatment. I think putting them at the mid-range location would balance the competing priorities between the ICEV owners and the BEV owners.
Does that work at your complex when they repeatedly parking in the handicap parking spots without a handicap plate or temporary placard? YMMV, but I had my car towed in the city once for being 2 inches past where the curb cut down to the road. The private tow truck company didn't care as they got more money out of the situation.
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Not sure if you're joking, and I've avoided contributing this anecdote because I'm fuzzy on the details, but my brother and sister-in-law owned a Leaf years before I bought my Bolt. They currently live in a house they bought, but when I visited them in either 2016 or 2017 they were still living in an 2nd floor apartment in a complex with first come, first served parking and no garage space. I can't say how often they did it, but at least once in the extended weekend I was there they were charging their Leaf by running a plain old orange extension cord out from their apartment to a Level 1 EVSE to charge the Leaf.
They lived there for another couple years after my visit, and to my knowledge kept the Leaf the entire time. For full disclosure, they had a second (ICE) vehicle, so I think they always had a buffer if they couldn't get the Leaf charged enough on a given day. Still, depending on the arrangement of the units and the parking, an extension cord might be a viable option for some apartment dwellers...
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From where? The tenants closest to outlets use them. Per the HOA, I would need a architectural design and their approval. It is what it is. It would be awesome if the HOA equipped every unit with a plug-in parking space, but I am not holding my breath.
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Almost every spot is in front of a building. Sorry, I suppose I'm not fully capturing the picture here.I ask that before, but you didn't directly reply. So above ground is probably easier to wire up with a charger (I think, I'm not way a road construction expert or electrician, but I've seen them go up inside condo parking garages and and in above ground parking spots and negotiated the contract to have someone add two L2 chargers to my company office parking lot).
I did previously mention limited existing parking space as a limiting factor. I'm sure people will complain en masse because they complain about basically everything both valid (rent raises, maintenance issues, noise, pest/mold) and less valid (a friend of my had a neighbor sued the condo association because he was told he couldn't park his 3 vehicles and a trailer in the guest parking spots (he was a hoarder and filled his garage with stuff).
If your apartment complex already offers reserved parking spots, it is "possible" for them to push through dedicating a few spots (say 2-4 out of 100) to get the tax incentives/benefits. Obviously it would be a judgement call depending on the situation... but technically if there are 5 residents who potentially want to charge their BEV. "at home"... the net effect is the same (those residents would have been taking up parking spots anyway).
While it possible that it might be cheaper to put them in front (closer to the existing power). Technically, it wouldn't need to be in the front as I agree that would be unnecessarily preferential treatment. I think putting them at the mid-range location would balance the competing priorities between the ICEV owners and the BEV owners.
Does that work at your complex when they repeatedly parking in the handicap parking spots without a handicap plate or temporary placard? YMMV, but I had my car towed in the city once for being 2 inches past where the curb cut down to the road. The private tow truck company didn't care as they got more money out of the situation.
You mention taking the reserved spots and... they're already there with power, they are the "minigarage" strips I mentioned... which cost an extra hunder a month that I'm not willing to pay. That solution just makes electric vehicles even harder a sell for most of us here.
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"OK, our mistake, let's go out to your car and show us where the charging port is on it?"
... and/or ...
"hmmm, it doesn't seem to be plugged in at the moment-- since you aren't using the spot to charge your car at this time, would you prefer moving it to another spot or having it towed to an impound lot?"
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So they've already split up the parking into two segments; those with a mini-garage with 120v power and those without. Wouldn't the suggested change just be further segmenting the spots?
You'd then have:
- spots that are free for all residents to park in
- spots with garages that are limited to specific residents for specific spots
- spots with an L2+ charger that anyone can park in, so long as they are charging or accept being billed for the non-charging time (just like what happens with most public charging spots)
If there are literally no spots to spare, what happens when you have a guest? Where do they park? When I had an apartment, every apartment had one specific spot (all covered car-ports labelled with your apartment number) and there were a handful of uncovered spots that were a free-for-all. They might not have been particularly convenient, but those spots were your options if you had more than one car or were a guest.
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This is a super confusing position.
Electricity is, in every single country where EVs are sold, largely generated by consumption of fossil fuels. There is no efficiency gain (and arguably efficiency LOSS) from having the power for your car come from a central power plant or one that is internal to the car.
Hybrids are wildly more practical than EVs for over 90% of Earth's surface area.
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They're never even going to challenge anyone on it, most likely. I mean, if you were to ask me if this or that car is an EV or not, I wouldn't be able to tell you at a glance. It's like when someone says "what's the make and model of the car that hit you?" How the heck should I know?! I'm not a "car" person. Do you know how many different kinds of cars there are? There are dozens! Literally, dozens!
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This is problematic for a couple of reasons:
The grid is multiple source, which includes Nuclear, Renewables and Fossil fuels, so it's much less emitting overall than a pure fossil fuel generator.
Even in the case pure fossil fuel generator, a modern combined cycle power plant operates in the 50-60% efficiency range vs 25-30% in a ICE car.
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Wait what's your argument then? By your reasoning why would a hybrid be better than a pure gas model?
In any case, you act like we aren't thinking of the "long tail pipe". We all are. We want power to be provided by renewables across the board, and to eliminate the long tail pipe TOO.
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