Cable group: Net neutrality rules for Netflix! (But not for us)

Netflix shouldn't be allowed to throttle itself, small cable companies tell FCC.

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[taswyn]

"Hi, we sell you this internet thing, but we don't really understand how it works. There might be pipes involved, since sometimes we dig holes. Who knows. Except we do know it makes us lots of money and we can get away with pretty much anything and you still have basically no choice but to pay us."

/facepalm

 

[Commander_Keen]

Anything Satan.. I mean AT&T and Comcast want, do not give them. Ever. That should just be a blanket rule.

 

[moxjake]

There is a major difference. What Netflix does is reduce the bit rate of the stream, resulting in a lower bandwidth, but watchable video. When the ISP throttles, it results in a stuttering, useless stream.

 

[bvz_1]

Huh. Seems pretty simple to me:

Anyone generating and serving up content is free to distribute said content at any bitrate for any reason whatsoever.

Done. ISP's, you are free to follow suit with anything you generate and host as well. But please note that that does not give you any rights to block, promote, slow down, or in any way interfere with bits you don't generate and host.

So if Netflix wants to slow down their bits that has nothing to do with NN because they are simply choosing to send THEIR content at a rate that they decide they want to serve it up at. If you have your own streaming service, that means you can serve YOUR bits at whatever rate you want. But you cannot alter their bits, nor can you charge extra for their bits nor can you give yours away for free.

 

[foetusinc]

I suppose next they'll go after web site operators for resizing images down from their original multi-megapixel RAW glory. Maybe UPS should sue Ikea for not shipping their furniture fully assembled?

 

[ConflictedDude]

Newsflash!!! Netflix practices customer service by taking into account their customers usage patterns!

What a bunch of pikers... Nobody said a provider of content couldn't self throttle, it's when ISP's throttle that can potentially screw customers *face slap*

 

[TechCrazy]

Translation: If Netflix throttles content them selves, our consumers will not go over the limit to pay us overage fees. Nor would they want to buy bigger data packages as Netflix is saving them data! This harms us .... I mean the consumers!

 

[loquacio]

My viewing experience will be greatly improved by Netflix trying to cram a 4K steam down my 5Mb/s DSL!

 

[masterbinky]

The big difference between the ISP and an edge provider like Netflix, I can cancel my Netflix account in a moment and be up and going on a competitor's network in no time, either way it doesn't affect my access to the rest of the internet anyways.

Still it is funny as hell that ISPs for all this time have been pointing at Netflix as being the reason for all the issues and they finally do the same thing the ISPs have been doing and they cry out that it's unfair. Sucks when you lose all credibility crying wolf and then an actual wolf shows up huh?

 

[Brevitic]

Same industry tune, same as it ever was. They're a content provider when it financially benefits them, they're not when it means they have to be responsible to consumers.

One could make a rather sideways argument that forcing no network control from edge providers would be compelling speech, or in this case transmission of packets.

Is the air denser inside content/ISP companies? I feel they're not getting enough oxygen to their grey mass.

 

[test6554]

When Netflix voluntarily throttles their own video, none of its competitors suffer because of it. You can even select another provider if you wish. When your ISP throttles all video streams except theirs, that breaks the free market.

 

[snoopy.369]

I know lobbying groups don't really have any connection to reality, but this is a new one. They make it sound like they simply don't understand what net neutrality _is_. I don't believe that's actually true - this is just a lobbying group lobbying by saying something that's pretty absurd but is intended to provide an extreme point of view to argue from - but doing so in a way that is so absurd ...

 

[snoopy.369]

Isn't this basically saying "The first amendment prevents the government from controlling speech. Therefore, you're not allowed to control your speech." Unless your name is Donald Trump, that's clearly not the case...

 

[arkiel]

Dear ACA,

Motherfucker, are you DENSE?

Sincerely,

Probably everyone that actually uses Netflix with a mobile data plan.

 

[Berial]

snoopy.369[/url]":jlblb6xx]I know lobbying groups don't really have any connection to reality, but this is a new one. They make it sound like they simply don't understand what net neutrality _is_. I don't believe that's actually true - this is just a lobbying group lobbying by saying something that's pretty absurd but is intended to provide an extreme point of view to argue from - but doing so in a way that is so absurd ...

They know EXACTLY what it is and they will do and say WHATEVER they can to destroy it because it's preventing them from charging MORE RENTS for their services.

 

[ichemandrew]

I think the internet provider lobby is aware that this is a silly comparison by any logic. What I'm not sure about is whether this behavior is simple opportunism (in which case the "think tanks" need to hire better thinkers), a sign of desperation (who would have thought the dingo would end up eating the evil baby?), or if they seriously believe people are ignorant enough to think this album time to makes sense.

It's also almost laughably ironic that they might actually have been able to but together a serious case along similar lines had they not been such ass-hats about using Netflix's own, freely-provided peerage hardware a few years ago. But, then, what isn't laugh-until-you-cry about this kind of incompetent corruption?

 

[kgb999]

Ummmm. What the are these bozos babbling about? This doesn't even make sense.

Netflix is a content provider ... not a network service provider. The products a content company provides is completely between them and their customers.

The only thing internet providers should be worrying about is ensuring the promised bandwidth between customers and the content providers they choose to do business with is delivered.

 

[uoiea]

TLDR: ISPs learn why increased Netflix use hasn't translated into massive data overage profits, retaliate by spewing Deepwater Horizon-like amounts of FUD.

 

[Hovemond]

The other day I resized a video on my phone so I could send it to my friend. Am I a criminal now?

 

[jdale]

Netflix secretly throttling itself seems iffy to me in that they may not be living up to their representations of the quality of their service, and in that it may falsely appear the ISP is at fault. Both of those would be remedied by simply being public and honest about how their service works. Actually throttling on the basis of the ISP seems fine to me if they are disclosing that in advance to their customers, and they aren't asking for payments from the ISPs. I would not mind the FCC mandating transparency here, though I don't see any reason to demand more than that.

But letting the user configure the bit rate (or the permitted bit rate variability) is an even better solution. It provides the needed transparency and lets the user make the choice instead of making it for them.

 

[Whiner42]

But Netflix reportedly throttled on mobile networks for more than five years without disclosing the system until last week. The throttling apparently applies even to AT&T and Verizon customers who pay for unlimited data or bigger-than-average data plans. Netflix didn't break any rule by keeping this quiet, but it would have been better for customers if the company had disclosed the throttling earlier and given customers control over video quality and data usage as soon as it was possible.

And what's funny is ... no one noticed the throttling. Because, heck - you're viewing it on a ~5" screen.

There is no problem here, unless you're a data-plan provider who wants to see customers blow through their data caps.

 

[DarthSlack]

Lets see, if the ISPs didn't have arbitrary and capricious data caps, Netflix wouldn't have to worry about their customers blowing through the arbitrary and capricious data caps.

 

[Mgamerz]

foetusinc[/url]":3hzadkdk]I suppose next they'll go after web site operators for resizing images down from their original multi-megapixel RAW glory. Maybe UPS should sue Ikea for not shipping their furniture fully assembled?

Have you ever shipped anything from ikea? I once was thinking of ordering a $180 desk and they wanted over $300 to ship it.

(But I get your point)

 

[fishbait]

The FCC's "approach to Net Neutrality is horribly one-sided and unfair because it leaves consumers unprotected from the actions of edge providers that block and throttle lawful traffic,"

exactly how is netflix blocking or throttling anyone else traffic.

Without such rules, ISPs could block or throttle Web services offered by businesses that don't pay for network access

this is wrong this part i have to support isps on if you dont pay for network access why should your web service be allowed to take up network resources,
i mean if we dotn pay we get cut off why should web services be any different?
now if they were to say "special network access" that would be a whole different ball game known as "fast lanes" and those i dont agree with
( they need to be careful with the way the word things)

Should there be some kind of anti-throttling rule applied to Netflix? The Information Technology & Innovation Foundation (ITIF), a think tank that opposed the FCC's net neutrality regulations, says no.

"These are Netflix’s video streams, and it should be able to manage its data however it thinks will best please its customers," ITIF telecom analyst Doug Brake wrote. "But what is good for the Netflix goose should be good for the gander: If Netflix is free to manage its traffic to better serve consumers, Internet Service Providers (ISPs), who are in an even better position to understand the traffic patterns and dynamics at play within the network itself, should be able to do the same. Same customers, same practice, same good outcome, but as it stands today, only one is unlawful."

i feel like their trying to play a PR game of look at us we're reasonable you should trsut what we say.

The FCC's net neutrality order argued that there wouldn't be good outcomes if ISPs were free to throttle. Net neutrality rules should be applied to broadband providers because they "have both the incentive and the ability to act as gatekeepers standing between edge providers and consumers," the FCC said. "As gatekeepers, they can block access altogether; they can target competitors, including competitors to their own video services; and they can extract unfair tolls."

exactly as long as cable companies have zoned off monopolies and a lack of real competiton they will always have incentive to try and exhort more money from the content provider that are relaint on their access
even furhter as long as the providers of pipes also provide content theirs alway incentive to disadvantage their competion in a way that their competion cannot fight back against or gain any meaningful competeing edge against.

 

[Matty]

I would love to see Netflix throw a pop-up that says something like:

"You have a shitty ISP with a low data cap to try to make their own video service compelling.

Consider finding an ISP without this conflict of interest and ask the FCC why you are paying so much for this level of service when other parts of the world have faster, uncapped, competitive internet providers.

The impact to your data cap will be xxxGB in hi-res and xxGB in low-res.

Would you like to watch this video in hi-res or low-res? "

 

[Deleted member 14629]

Cable to all other telco industry groups: "all aboard the false equivalence bandwagon!"

Seriously, this is only a "surprise" or "outrage" because some people at AT&T is pushing really hard to make this media worthy. Netflix throttles connections for all sorts of reasons. Most of them customer-friendly. This is no different, but is it dramatically different from ISPs choosing what to throttle.

All that said, I would love an option to turn this off or on for mobile data. My OS lets me choose if I want to eat my mobile plan, Netflix should too. I only rarely watch Netflix over mobile, but when I do I'd like to get the best stream possible. I'm never going to hit my cap anyway, so I might as well go whole-hog.

 

[Deleted member 14629]

Another thought, I also use Plex, which explicitly allows me to choose my bitrates when on wifi versus mobile data. Am I violating net neutrality for myself by doing so? I'm literally doing nothing different than Netflix, just on a much, much smaller scale.

 

[soulsabr]

taswyn[/url]":38jhci31]"Hi, we sell you this internet thing, but we don't really understand how it works. There might be pipes involved, since sometimes we dig holes. Who knows. Except we do know it makes us lots of money and we can get away with pretty much anything and you still have basically no choice but to pay us."

/facepalm all the way to the bank

FTFY

 

[JamesHulsmann]

Sorry if it has been stated already, but the difference being ignored here is this:

-Netflix competes for my viewing time, and if I do not like Netflix for any number of reasons, I can take my business elsewhere (xbox vod, ps vod, amazon prime, cable-provided viewing, etc.).

-My ISP (Cablevision, one of the "good ones") is my only ISP choice (dialup is not really an alternate).



TL;DR: Netflix competes with other edge providers; ISP's compete with no one. Ergo, NN for ISP's, and not for edge providers.

 

[tcowher]

I would wish netflix gave the option of throttling or not based on user choice. Make it the default if you want but let people know about it.

However to play devil's advocate the ISP side isn't entirely without merit. Though it would make more sense if their was true competition between ISPs.

Where it could be said to hold water is this situation:

1. I own a very popular, some would say mandatory service.
2. I don't like ISP A
3. I degrade performance on ISP A but not on other ISPs
4. ISP A receives complaints but insists (as par for course) that it is the service provider not them that is the problem.
5. ISP B, C, D.... do not have this issue.
6. ISP A loses customers to ISP B,C,D....

But this would require competition in the ISP marketplace for this to be a useful claim.
Such behavior even in the market we have now could raise public support for legislation or other "unwanted by ISP A" situations.

tc

 

[Fatesrider]

When Netflix offers cable service as an ISP, then they may have a point.

But as a content provider, they can provide the content as they want. The ISP's duty is to deliver that content as fast as the customer has paid for.

God, the egregious hypocrisy the ISP's are displaying boggle the mind...

 

[heartburnkid]

If I roll my eyes any harder at this, Brock Lesnar is going to break my undefeated streak at Wrestlemania.

 

[soulsabr]

spalek83[/url]":1in71vu3]Anything Satan.. I mean AT&T and Comcast want, do not give them. Ever. That should just be a blanket rule.

We here at at the law firm of Satan, Lucifer, and Beelzebub Inc. wish to inform you that if you so slander us again we will have no choice other than to sue you with the full forces of Hell and the lawyers contained there in. Please refrain from mistaking us for AT&T and Comcast in the future.

 

[romkyns]

Seriously though, it's really shitty of Netflix not to let me override their defaults. If I want to watch it at 1080p over my mobile data while waiting for it to buffer, it's not your call to stop me!

 

[gmerrick]

Can someone tell me what type of weed these guys are smoking so I can get some from the local dispensary.

 

[gmerrick]

soulsabr[/url]":2q3ojgw2]

spalek83[/url]":2q3ojgw2]Anything Satan.. I mean AT&T and Comcast want, do not give them. Ever. That should just be a blanket rule.

We here at at the law firm of Satan, Lucifer, and Beelzebub Inc. wish to inform you that if you so slander us again we will have no choice other than to sue you with the full forces of Hell and the lawyers contained there in. Please refrain from mistaking us for AT&T and Comcast in the future.

I think hell has a better rep than ATT and Comcast.

 

[dragonherder]

This is ridiculous. Netflix is doing it to literally HELP the consumer on MOBILE networks... The data is literally being throttled (and will be done later by choice) so that consumers can stay under their data caps easier... These cable groups are clearly weasels...

 

[dragonherder]

romkyns[/url]":2f83du7w]Seriously though, it's really shitty of Netflix not to let me override their defaults. If I want to watch it at 1080p over my mobile data while waiting for it to buffer, it's not your call to stop me!

You will be able to it's just not implemented yet